Played thru a Ceriatone JTM45

[elk]

I met this guy through his mother in law, (she attends our church). He plays in a local band. He showed up Wednesday night at our Praise Band practice and we talked for a bit and decided we'd get together last night to just talk and play a bit. He recently had Ceriatone build him a JTM45 clone. I don't know much about them, always been more of a Fender amp guy but thought the way you could jumper the channels together was pretty cool. I played a few different guitars through it, but when I plugged in an Epiphone LP custom he had fitted with Carvin hb's.......WOW! Next thing I know it's about an hour and a half later; it sounded so good it was hard to stop playing. Just by using the jumper in the channels and the two seperate volume controls,(not including the gain and master), he can get almost all of the variations of tone that you'd associate with the term, 'THE Marshall sound'. We made our way throught the 60's, 70's and into the eighties; what a gas and what a great amp. I guess for around 2 grand it ought to be!

[Crunchyriff]

That is the beauty of the JTM45. That is my favorite amplifier- especially with GEC KT66's. I can do a whole album with one of those. Just stellar tones. No multi-channel, high gain nonsense. Guitar, amp, a few stompboxes and the volume knobs on your guitar. That or the JTM45/100 is my desert island amp, without question.

[elk]

I think I read somewhere that Jim Marshall considers the JTM45 the best amp he ever made.

[Crunchyriff]

Originally Posted by elk

I think I read somewhere that Jim Marshall considers the JTM45 the best amp he ever made.

Ironically, that amp is Jim's "euro '59 bassman" (I think the year is correct), to more or less put it. They changed around a few components with stuff they had on-hand in Britain, for example, KT66's instead of 6L6's, Refin and Micter can probably give you the specifics on those and other changes; but basically they wanted something to compete against Fender and have something of their own national origin, locally made for the working musician that didn't incur import duties and be priced out of reach for the working musician over there. JTM45's really are a glorious sounding, and fantastically responding amp. It's one of those wonderful amplifiers that you "play the amp" as much as, if not more than, playing the guitar itself.

I've played just about every tube Marshall circuit up to the JCM800 and 900 series (that includes most JTM, JMP, JCM, plexi and metal panel variants) and though the 1959SLP has become rather legendary due to a few specific guitarists and is a great Marshall flavor; for a Marshall, the JTM45 is my personal favorite... and of course has its own following and has made a ton of its own legendary recordings.

Everybody is different, and we all like different things that appeal to us. To my ears, a good '65 JTM45 (or clone) is pretty much un-matched for my preferences and what I play; and though the later SolidState Rectifier Marshall tops are more immediate responding (very fast), I really like the feel & interaction of the tube rectifier. Actually one stock JTM45 and one with a SS rect. would be optimum.

Glad you got to experience that amp, Elk! Great stuff!!!

One other thing I'd like to add- a great amp lets the player shine through with his or her own personality. I really don't hear that trait with most (but not all) modern amps to a large degree, and I think that prized trait is due the simplicity of an old, good, tube circuit. (the second reason is good tubes) A good old Fender Deluxe is another example, or a Bassman... or a blackface Bandmaster. That said, I find it interesting that most of my '60's and '70's guitar heroes played Marshalls & had their own signature sounds- some very different than others, though many used virtually the same amps & cabs.

Elk you said you are pretty much a Fender amp guy. Which particular amps do you prefer?

[elk]

I still hear the sound of my first amp, a S/F Princeton Reverb, in my head. I had regret selling that the minute I did, (30+ years ago), but at the time, it was all about Marshalls and Les Pauls. When I was a teen it was pretty much a given, in the circle of heathens I ran with, that 50 watts was a minimum acceptable wattage for any venue we dreamed of playing; of course a main guitar and a minimum of two backups was also necessary because that's what your guitar hero Du Jour said in some magazine. Ah, the wisdom of youth eh? I just enjoy that lively clean that Fenders are known for. One of the other things that floored me about the Ceriatone is just how touch sensative it is. I have a monster of a Sunn amp that is like that, but it needs to be at serious volume to work and sound right. The Ceriaton I played through had that attribute almost from the start. I do think amps can be somewhat like guitars in that they can be different from one amp to the next in the same line. I've played alot of Princetons from the same era for example, and they're not all the same. I also think since I've kind of always used pedals for dirt, grit, goo, etc. and the Fenders usually take pedals pretty well, I've just kind of gravitated towards them. I purchased a Marshall, I believe it was a 'Studio 18', everyone was raving about them. It was the single biggest disappointment I've experienced in gear. I so wanted to love that amp but it felt so cheaply made and sounded like the south end of a north-bound cow. I couldn't understand how a company like Marshall could let that amp get out, even if the one I had was a fluke, someone was sleeping in QC. I'm not Marshall bashing, generation after generation has a legion of fans, but that was my first and only experience with Marshall's since by the time I could finally afford the gear I lusted after in my youth, my volume requirements had changed dramatically!

[Micter]

My JCM6100 has a JTM45 preamp section (amongst others) ran through 4 EL34's. Not actual apples to apples but it does sound really great. I personally like the 18 watt circuit the best followed by the Plexi but the JTM45 is a great tonal amp for sure!

[Crunchyriff]

Elk, agreed- not all old amps sound alike (unit to unit) as tolerances for electrical components could range as much as upwards of 15% and even higher( up to 30% !!)... which is not a small amt. Usually components varied less than that, but even a 10% variance can have quite an effect; thus the variance between amplifiers within a certain model. As far as the Marshall you had, was it the "Studio 15" with 6V6's and a built-in attenuator & XLR's out, or are you talking about the 18-watt all-tube combo that looked like a mini-bluesbreaker? I'm thinking you had the Studio15, not to correct you, mind you. As for '80's production, that is not an era of Marshall I'm particularly fond of either, and of their build quality (or the lack of it) during that period.

As far as the components themselves from say '50's thru '70's: you are probably aware while components (resistors, caps, transformers, etc) could have some fairly wide tolerances from 'official spec'., their general build quality was good; whereas later on when many of these components were outsourced from overseas asian vendors in the late 70's and 80's, the quality AND tolerances suffered for awhile. Since that time foreign vendors of these components have improved. I mean, there was no 'black ops formulas' like the vintage amp fans have today; just handfuls of parts that got put together while the amp mfg's were buying lots of electrical components in HUGE quantities.

So if you have an amp that has components that are, let's say a 3% variance of spec; it will probably sound and react much different than one that has the same parts with a variance of say 8-10%, or above.

Of course, all that adds up to amps with certain 'personalities' from unit to unit within a certain model. I will say the Studio 15 is one Marshall I have not had personal experience with, but I take your word for it as Marshall has been known to sell a few models that were flops or dogs, that sold just for the Marshall name alone. But in all candor, so has Fender and other companies; which is not unusual.

If I recall, Dave Gilmour usually tracks with a Fender Princeton on his floating studio 'Astoria' and has also used many other small amps for recording. Zappa also praised smaller amps with smaller speakers for recording. A great sounding Princeton amp, is a keeper.

Over the last say, 15 years, people have become quite conscious of the differences in amps, and those old great sounding tops have been researched and back-engineered ad-nauseam; so the formulas have been pretty much nailed to replicate the great ones. Today you can get components with TIGHT tolerances, which brings-up the performance and the consistency from amp to amp. Today's replica builders and Vintage amp restorers have actually created quite a cottage industry for parts mfg's within this vein; the only thing still lacking, sadly, is tube mfg, which much of it is a lost art that we may never EVER recapture. Much of that knowledge of certain proprietary tube mfg processes during the '50's thru the '70's were unpublished trade secrets that were passed from person to person; that went to their graves with them. It's a terrible shame.

Something I won't get into much here but will touch on, is also the power of the 'beancounters' in accounting that, when a new amp was proposed for production, they try and figure out how they can shave down production costs for the sake of a buck... and ultimately, at the expense of the buyer. "oh this part has the same value as that one, but instead of $.50 per part we can get these other ones for $.15. ( grrrr... )

[Crunchyriff]

Originally Posted by Micter

My JCM6100 has a JTM45 preamp section (amongst others) ran through 4 EL34's. Not actual apples to apples but it does sound really great. I personally like the 18 watt circuit the best followed by the Plexi but the JTM45 is a great tonal amp for sure!

Vic- your 6100 has the SS rec, not the tube rectifier, correct? The 18 watt circuit you have, I think, is quite different than the Studio15. That old 18-watt amp is a great one, albeit you have the EL84's freq response (which is great, btw!); but they just don't quite have the lower grunt of a bigger-bottle tube as do the EL34, 6L6, and KT66. As such, they always remind me of being a "EL34 Jr" and I love their sound, but the lower range is always more vox-like due to the tube's low-end restrictions. For a smaller combo, yeah; but for a head and 2x12 or 4x12 cab, I'd prefer more low end.

In any case, I could be happy with any of those 3 you mentioned! All great amps!!

[elk]

It may have been the Studio 15 I had. I have managed to find a 70's Princeton non-reverb that sounds pretty good, and have been blessed with some other amps that sound pretty cool as well. It's funny, the time, effort and money we spend chasing a sound in our head. I can see how that JTM could be a 'desert island amp', the versatility is amazing. It's a shame we have gone from how good can we build something to how cheap can we build something. That's the thing that amazed me about that Bugera I played, how nice it sounded for how cheap it was priced.

[Micter]

Originally Posted by Crunchyriff

Vic- your 6100 has the SS rec, not the tube rectifier, correct? The 18 watt circuit you have, I think, is quite different than the Studio15. That old 18-watt amp is a great one, albeit you have the EL84's freq response (which is great, btw!); but they just don't quite have the lower grunt of a bigger-bottle tube as do the EL34, 6L6, and KT66. As such, they always remind me of being a "EL34 Jr" and I love their sound, but the lower range is always more vox-like due to the tube's low-end restrictions. For a smaller combo, yeah; but for a head and 2x12 or 4x12 cab, I'd prefer more low end.

In any case, I could be happy with any of those 3 you mentioned! All great amps!!

http://www.drtube.com/schematics/mar...6100-63-04.pdf

here's a schematic on the 6100

My 18 watt has too much bass. I have the bass all the way down with a 4x12.

[Crunchyriff]

Originally Posted by Micter

http://www.drtube.com/schematics/mar...6100-63-04.pdf

here's a schematic on the 6100

My 18 watt has too much bass. I have the bass all the way down with a 4x12.

Okay, that may be with certain frequencies given and your amp AND cab; what I'm saying is that the EL84 has quite a different low-end freq response than the others which I believe are more robust overall in the low-mids to lows; and this is a given and no secret in the tube community. The EL84's limitations in this area are well-known, yet it certainly doesn't disqualify it as being a great tube, nor am I saying it is. IIRC, on my V32 combo I think I was running the bass at about 3-4 when I had it at "stage volume", or it got too muddy. Running it into my 4x12's I still missed some low-end, but it certainly sounded good. My old Laney AOR30 (w EL84's) was another wonderful sounding amp, but I still preferred the bigger-bottled power tubes. More headroom, too.

[Micter]

Originally Posted by Crunchyriff

Okay, that may be with certain frequencies given and your amp AND cab; what I'm saying is that the EL84 has quite a different low-end freq response than the others which I believe are more robust overall in the low-mids to lows; and this is a given and no secret in the tube community. The EL84's limitations in this area are well-known, yet it certainly doesn't disqualify it as being a great tube, nor am I saying it is. IIRC, on my V32 combo I think I was running the bass at about 3-4 when I had it at "stage volume", or it got too muddy. Running it into my 4x12's I still missed some low-end, but it certainly sounded good. My old Laney AOR30 (w EL84's) was another wonderful sounding amp, but I still preferred the bigger-bottled power tubes. More headroom, too.

Oh I agree the EL34 has a wider response but EL84's can sound wonderful with the right speaker/cab

[stephen]

Not to hijack the thread, but my Crate V18 uses two EL84's, and the bass response is incredible. It's so intense, I have the bass set at 1, and my Sonic stomp cranked to make the bass just right.

I do agree that EL84's are more mid rangy, but the circuit design in the V18 seems to change that signature.

Cool to hear you got to play that Ceriatone JTM45 and had a blast with it elk!

So when you gonna buy one?

[elk]

Buy one? Let's see......daughter's almost out of college, then loan repayment starts; I'm sure there will be a wedding at some point. I already have a half-dozen amps and a PA. It's probably giong to be a while yet...

Seeing as how I mostly play on Sundays, That little Bugera would actually be the better choice if I were going to acquire a new amp right now.

[stephen]

I hear ya! And that Bugera is a lot closer to my price range, than the Ceriatone is. And even then, its still high: I havent paid over two hundred dollars for a tube amp, in over 10 years, and I just bought my V18 less than two years ago!