Guitar buying ethics?

[PatrickH]

webmaster edit: I felt that even though it is a topic about guitars, the underlying thrust of the topic fit better in "Out of Control Puppy Bistro". I've left a shadow topic, to hopefully avoid any confusion. Stephen

So a good friend of mine and I were recently having a conversation about sweatshops and unethical labour use in clothing manufacturers, and somewhere along the line it got us to wondering about guitars.

There are countless guitars out there that are now made in countries like China and Indonesia which are known for not enforcing labour laws (or not having them to begin with). This, I would assume, does not mean that all guitars made in China are made in sweatshops, but how can one ever be sure? It's easy to go online and find out about clothing manufacturers, but I've yet to find information about guitar manufacturing. I know, in message boards, and in reviews on Harmony Central, people have claimed that guitar companies like "Squier" use sweatshop labour, but is this just speculation because the guitars are inexepensive? If anyone knows of any resources for looking up these things, I'd like to know where they are.

A friend who works at a local music store has told me that squiers generally cost between $15-$30 to make and that their store has been instructed by a fender representative to merely cut the headstock off any defective squeir guitar, and send the headstock to fender for a replacement guitar, since spending an hour on north-american labour to repair the guitar would cost them more than the price of building/shipping an entirely new guitar from oversees. That troubles me...

As Christians, we should be trying to restore dignity to people, rather than encouraging unfair business practices. In a lot of ways, Christ's work on earth was about restoring dignity to being a human being, and I think it is very important that we continue that work. As a musician/music teacher, I tend to have over a hundred students and friends ask me for recommendations on begginner guitars. I find myself torn in what to say, as I know they can't afford a higher end instrument, but I don't feel right, ethically, in recommending a product that may have exploited people or children to produce.

How does one deal with these things?

Anyway, it's just someting I've been thinking about and I thought it might make for some interesting discussion....

[dmw]

You've picked a somewhat controversial subject to bring up, but it's a very legitimate subject, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I prefer to not buy products made in these countries because I feel like I'm helping to support ungodly governents and nations, in addition to the reasons you state.

However, it's awfully hard to avoid buying any China made products. For example, the computer I'm now using to access the 'Net and this web site has parts made in China. I'm a manufacturers rep in the electronics/datacom industry and there's not much product in this industry I work in that does not have at least some parts content of MIC parts. Many of the fiber optic patch cords I sell may have American or Japanese connectors or cable, but they're assembled in some sweat shop in China or other Asian country that pays low wages or it's a country that's not particularly friendly to the United States. Many cables sold in the industry in which I work may be branded as though they are by some American company, but they may get the product produced in China, in full or in part.

Back to guitars: I didn't mind the Korean made guitars as much, for example, as South Korea is considered an ally to the United States. I recently bought another Ibanez semi-hollow guitar and was fortunate to find a nice used Korean-made Artstar.

Having said that, I won't throw stones at anyone for buying MIC product, or I'd have to start by throwing them at myself. I've got some Behringer products, and they're made in China. Some folks rave about the quality of the Blue Ridge acoustic guitars, and they're made in China. Washburn is having most of their guitars made there. Ibanez has a portion of their line made in China. These are just a few examples.

Maybe my "logic" is flawed. I'm not sure. All I can say is that I don't go out of my way to buy something that's made in China or Indonesia, and prefer products made elsewhere. Maybe that's hypocritical, but that's how I deal with it. As I say, I don't know how boycott Chinese-made products in total when there's so many American companies that go there to have their products produced.

[stephen]

This is a good discussion, but I do want to caution, that some take this issue very seriously, and while I acknowledge the serious nature of this issue, I will not let this turn into a flame war amongst members, which let me just remind you, were all brothers and sisters in the Lord.

I only mention this, because I have seen this very topic turn into one heck of a kung-fu slug fest on other discussion boards, and I have no interest in seeing that happen here.

So far the discussion is good, and nothing that has been said warrants any action.

So, lets have a deep discussion, but no flames! For now, I'll just sit back and read.........

[Crunchyriff]

Well, I try to buy USA whenever I can. That being said, I have a plethora of foreign-made stuff. ALL my home-theatre gear (well, maybe not my JBL's); projector, TV's, home stuff, then we have the music stuff.

I understand both sides of the issue pretty well, as well as most of you do.

Put it this way: my 1st choice is American-made....period. But some things aren't made here for various reasons. Maybe they never were. Maybe they were once, but the operation hhas shipped overseas. All my camera gear is foreign (Nikon). And so forth. Maye they are so overpriced now (can you say GIBSON and Fender) that some, like me have taken to alternative sources. Maybe domestic-made doesn't have what I want...etc...

I suppose we could look at this in reverse fashion: Paul was a tent-maker by trade to support his own ministry. I'm sure the vast majority of tents he sold went to lost people...maybe even practicing prostitutes. So if he sold a prostitue a tent, is he indirectly supporting her profession, especially if he KNEW she was a prostitute?

Some would say "yes" and condemn him.

So now, to flip the coin over again, when I consider overseas products I must consider this:

People over there are out of my control AND my sphere of influence. I can either let them starve by not buying any of their products, or spend to somehow help these people earn the very meager income they get; and perhaps, if I am one who vocalizes about "sweatshop labor" and makes it a priority, & if I REALLY care, I can also invest in overseas outreaches and what not behind the scenes in these countries. If I scream and protest sweatshops, but do nothing in an alternative/supplemental fashion (including prayer and giving), then all my words of protest are just feeble, meaningless bleating.

Remember in all this: Jesus said "the poor you will always have with you". I'm not saying this in a cavlier fashion, just stating the facts.

If it comes down to it, YES I will buy foreign products and I don't care what anybody thinks about my choice. You also have to consider the vastly different economic status of these nations. We are flat spoiled and don't have a clue for the most part what these citizens of impoverished countries think is "being rich". I am not excusing sweatshops by any means.

If it boils down to a sweatshop I'm indirectly supporting, I find it somewhat better than starvation and death for those poor workers; if they had no jobs at all... I'm pretty idealistic, but there is a point when you have to weigh the alternatives.

Peace be with you all.

[Pearly Gator]

Well, a lot of good points have been raised. I'd like to raise a couple more, keeping in mind what Stephen said.

Chinese labor is earning like 29 cents an hour. That is why we do business with them, buy their products and get a lot of bang for our buck. You know what? They're pretty glad to be earning so much money after living so long in poverty. The quality of their products is blowing me away every day. Remember Hong Kong? All these products aren't being made in a backwoods sweat shop.

It has brought a revolution there, though. 'John Doe average citizen' in China can now surf the Internet and see how the rest of the free world lives, without government censorship. He likes what he sees. It has even opened the gate for Christianity. China is going through major changes and God is in control.

Along these lines another guitar forom recently had a topic called "Would you buy a guitar from a builder who had opposing political views to yours?" The concensus of replies said, "Sure! Buy the guitar, play it at a gig opposing his viewpoints and send him the picture of you and the guitar with a note; "Thanks for the great guitar!" That is the attitude I take, playing a Chinese made Ibanez hollowbody at church. "Persecute my bretheren, eh? Watch me praise Jesus on this!"

The best scripture I can think of pertaining to this subject is Romans 14:5

"One man esteemeth one day above another:
another esteemeth every day alike.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

In Christ,

Pearly Gator

[Wally]

I think you have to follow your conscious on this one... I don't believe that our country should trade with countries like China because of the way they treat their citizens, so I prefer not to buy MIC... but there are many items where we simply have no choice. Try to find a pair of shoes that aren't made there. I was dissapointed to find out this weekend that most western boots are even made there.

When it comes to guitars, I have avoided MIC so far. I can't afford American for the most part (except for a baby Taylor), but I have found Mexican made Fender electrics and Canadian made Seagull acoustics to be great guitars for the price. There is also enough information available about the factories that I am fairly confident that their employees are treated well. I also have some Korean made stuff that is good and as mentioned they are allies to the US. Korean made is unfortunately becoming harder to find as their economy continues to improve.

So... my recomendation to those looking for an inexpensive instrument is to buy Canadian, Mexican or Korean. Mexican and Korean happen to be two of my favorite cuisines as well, but thats another thread :angel

[Micter]

I have a huge problem with Chinese made products. Not to say that I haven't ever purchased anything made in China but if I have the choice I sure won't.

[reverbbb]

We cannot escape China, India, Malaysia, Indonesia or any other place that markets products to the US. I would bet that 99% of the components in your computer and monitor originated overseas (espcially if it say Dell on it).

Gator is right. China is more modernized than westerners give it credit. A co-worker just got back from China last week. He has been over there 6 times in 12 months for business. He said that each time he goes, he realizes how far behind the US is falling behind China in modernization, technology and quality of living. The northern coast of China (where 60% of the population lives), is perhaps the most modern and industrialized region on earth. They truely have cities that look like futurama - massive skyscrapers, monorails, Jumbo-Trons above many sidewalks and lights that rival Las Vegas.

In order for a company to export to the US, most of them are going to be in direct association with the export companies and all of it's infrastructure. The small sweat shops for the most part are selling specialty products like capacitors and decoraitve junk. Not guitars, TVs and stereos.

I cannot prove that my American made Stratocaster does not have a sweat shop capacitor, nor can I prove that my Chinese Celestions were made in a sweat shop. The age of "Buy American" is a hold out of a time that has past, just like the blacksmith and the livery stable keeper.

Having said that, I will continue to buy as "American" as I can, due to the perceived resale value. But there is a limit. I just bought a Mazda Tribute - 1st non-American auto I have bought in 25 years. First off, the value was too good to pass up. It is priced at $6K less than an American equivalent.

In China, there are huge quality problems for some products. But just like Mexico, they will figure it out and in many cases, they already have.

[TheViking]

I think we all want our fellow man to have a decent life with choices and options. I thik we all want our fellom man to be able to eat well, sleep in a good bed and feel safe and happy. Sadly enough, that is not the case.

If we stop buying products manufactured in countriI think we all want our fellow man to have a decent life with choices and options. I think we all want our fellow man to be able to eat well, sleep in a good bed and feel safe and happy. Sadly enough, that is not the case.

If we stop buying products manufactured in countries with "dodgy" labor laws, we would have to cut out buying products from most countries except maybe the US, Australia, and some parts of Europe.

I do not think sweat shop and child labor are good things at all, but when you look at the alternative, maybe they're not that bad. For some of these people including the kids, these jobs are the only thing that keeps them alive. If they did not make their 29cents / hr they would have to beg, steal, sell drugs or become prostitutes.

It's not the governments that will suffer if products are boycotted, maybe they will in the long run, but the people, those who already have little or nothing will suffer first. One of my friends just came back after 10 years in Colombia. He has been working as a missionary there. Some years ago a movement originated from Christian congregations started a boycott of Colombian products due to the fact that Colombia uses child workers extensively. When my friend told me about the consequences it had in his neighborhood, I must admit I was ashamed to actually have taken part in the boycott.

As for guitar factories, I know four Chinese factories pretty well. I have met both workers and executives from two of these companies. One European company I work with have a staff currently living in China to keep an eye on the manufacturers. They pay above minimum standards and treat their workers very well compared to other Chinese manufacturers. China is rapidly establishing a name in Europe as a good country for manufacturing musical instruments. The work they do is good, the prices are reasonable and the knowledge level is high.

Whenever we receive a pallet of goods in our store, we also receive a document from customs where the brand manufacturer has to state what country of origin the goods have. The box might state Asia, Korea or even Japan, but that is where the goods are assembled or even just repacked.

I do not personally think we do people a favor by boycotting their only source to an income however small it is
es with "dodgy" labour laws, we would have to cut out buying products from most countries except maybe the US, Australia, and some parts of Europe.

I do not think sweat shop or child labour are good things at all, but when you look at the alternative, maybe they're not that bad. For some of these people including the kids, these jobs are the only thing that keeps them alive. If they did not make their 29cents / hr they would have to beg, steal, sell drugs or become prostitutes.

It's not the governments who will suffer if products are boycotted

[Crunchyriff]

It has brought a revolution there, though. 'John Doe average citizen' in China can now surf the Internet and see how the rest of the free world lives, without government censorship. He likes what he sees. It has even opened the gate for Christianity. China is going through major changes and God is in control.

Unfortunately, the PRC regulates the internet quite heavily. It's not as "open" to the avg Chinse citizen like it is to us here. It is VERY controlled.
FWIW, I try to avoid PRC products as much as I can...but we can't 100%

[Brian]

Since around 1979 I have had a tendancy to buy USA - made high end instruments. I can't/don't buy very many tho! I certainly feel that Jean Larivee, Linda Manzer, Brad at Wings, Robert Godin, and other Canadian Luthiers are producing some top quality instruments.

I think about the luthiers I know of in North America (with all due respect to my brothers and sisters elsewhere) who have studied, apprenticed, and honed their craft and are trying to make a living at what they love; producing many of the finest instruments in the world, while competing against 29 cent/hr labor and guitar bodies made out of faux wood.

Nothing is forever though and besides fine design, craftsmanship, materials, playability, and sound, these instruments have something that the cheap instruments don't... resale value. They often appreciate, my L5 between 6x and 8x what I paid for it. In the industry I work in that's called Total Cost of Ownership, and that's VALUE.

Same goes for amps.

[TheViking]

Nothing is forever though and besides fine design, craftsmanship, materials, playability, and sound, these instruments have something that the cheap instruments don't... resale value. They often appreciate, my L5 between 6x and 8x what I paid for it. In the industry I work in that's called Total Cost of Ownership, and that's VALUE.

Same goes for amps.

I see your point, and I agree, but at 12,13,14 or even 18 most people can't afford to go out and buy a L5, an expensive Taylor or even an american Fender.

[Crunchyriff]

I hear ya Brian, and Viking your last point is very well-put.

Brian, the last 6 pieces of music gear I sold, I 'made money' on. Some I made a killing on. It's always nice to play gear "for free" (recouping your expense) and then make money doing it (by making a profit on sales) It's virtually "getting paid" to have and use the gear before you sell.

Of course, all my things were brand-name items that I chose carefully firsthand for my requirements; secondhand for speculative investment. FWIW, My last 88 PRS will be going up for sale on fleabay this week, and I should double if not triple what I paid for it 17 years ago when I bought it new...

All of my guitars, with the exception of my "in transit" MIJ Tokai NES-120 (335), and my ultra-cheapie Tele-clone (yep it's Chinese) are all USA made.

[Brian]

I see your point, and I agree, but at 12,13,14 or even 18 most people can't afford to go out and buy a L5, an expensive Taylor or even an american Fender.I was afraid that I would sound too mercenary. I'm sorry. We're a single income family so I completely agree with you.

I place a high priority on the quality of an instrument though and I am blessed that my wife agrees. 6 yrs ago, my son suffered through 1 yr using a school rental trombone with problems that I had to fix. We made the sacrifice to get him private lessons, and when he started to put the effort into timbre, pitch, and articulation he stood out from his peers. My wife and I knew that he was ready for a quality instrument. I was able to find used 2 pro-level 'bones in great shape (1 med bore for orchestra/concert band, 1 small bore for jazz lead) for significantly less than the price of 1 new student model. He's playing 1st 'bone in his High School's bands and in a local Jr college jazz band with me, besides serving the Lord at church with our stage musical play and concert outreach ministry.

I don't want to sound disingenuous or trite, but I am firmly convinced that the Lord provided the instruments we have, to serve Him with. The Taylor, Zion, and my son's 'bones were acquired after 6 or more solid months of prayer each. I believe that even the L5 and my Telecaster were provided decades before I was saved because of their eventual service for Him. The Lord provided the direction (what, where, when) and the means when His time was right.

...Of course, all my things were brand-name items that I chose carefully firsthand for my requirements; secondhand for speculative investment. I buy 'em but I don't sell 'em. I keep what I buy - so I don't have very many. Honestly, I don't consider resale value in my instrument purchases. It just happens.

[Crunchyriff]

I buy 'em but I don't sell 'em. I keep what I buy - so I don't have very many. Honestly, I don't consider resale value in my instrument purchases. It just happens.

Brian, I guess what I'm trying to say is I try to buy wisely. (not that you don't) esp on high-ticket items.

When I buy used, I do; as well as buying new. It doesn't always dictate if I will buy, or not, however.

Some new stuff obviously I will always lose money on. But when I bought my historic LP, as well as my used Howard Robert Fusion, I knew in my mind I was making a fairly wise investment. "if I ever need to sell these, or WANT to sell them due to my being done with them..." you know, that sorta thing.

I sold the HR due to really wanting a 335..and when I sold it I made a few bucks on it...after owning it for FOUR years. My Hamer USA Explorer I made a few hundred with after owning it for two years. The JCM800 I sold, I doubled my money on in the 14 mos I had it. All were sold either as excess, or for replacements/upgrades. Sometimes I buy gear to make a few bucks, too, and turn them for a modest profit.

Of course, if the Lord tarries not, all this is meaningless...

[Teleguy]

I'm Labor, so I support American Labor as much as possible, however I don't believe in boycotting anyone.
It's just my personal preference.

I feel as sorry for the Indiana worker whose ball-bearing factory job has gone to Japan, as I do for ANYBODY whose job has been sent "offshore" under NAFTA.
However, I cannot persuade my boss to buy only USA made ball bearings for motors I sometimes rebuild, because the American suppliers of bearings outsource them from a variety of places. It is a "market" commodity, manufactured in a World market.

My guitar and amp were both made in Mexico.
Mexico and Canada are America too!

Does this sound prejudicial? :?:

[Crunchyriff]

Mexico and Canada are America too!

arrgh!

I suppose "I'm labor" too, being an extorted IBEW member....

dont'cha just love an "agency shop" ?? :|

[Ravindave_3600]

Sweatshops will persist until people become unwilling to pay sweatshop prices. I don't know how to change people's perspectives (or, enough people's perspectives so it would make a difference), but that's the cause of sweatshops - the public wanting to get things for the lowest possible prices, no matter the cost to the worker.

Don't shoot me as a communist. Don't presume I've blasted your lifestyle choice. Don't take offense; I haven't (intentionally) criticized anyone. But those are the facts.