Should we include or not? Sinners & Saints

[TheViking]

There is a debate going on in several of the churches I do work for. The debate is on who should be used for “platform duties” (P&W, reading the scripture preaching and so on) and not. One party claims that born again believers who manage to live a life close to God are the only ones eligible for these kinds of tasks. This means that people who struggle with any visible sins in their lives will not be put on a platform. The other party claims we are all sinners and have more or less sin in our lives visible or not, and that anyone who desires to serve the Lord should be able to do so.
To me this sounds a bit off. The churches who won’t use those who struggle for platform stuff, will gladly accept the help of these people in any other task from cleaning the church to helping with the food. The churches with the other point of view will use anyone for almost anything.
I mean we all have sin in our lives; we are all saved by grace, should our facade determine what kind of stuff we are allowed to do in church? Some sins are more visible than others. Someone who struggles with alcohol may have a harder time hiding it than for instance a porn addicted brother. In a perfect world none of these brothers would have a problem with any of this, but we know it is happening. Should the brother with the alcohol problems be a worse sinner than the porn addict?
I am worried about what kind of message this sends to the members of the members of the congregations as well to people in the world Those who manages to hide sin, are welcome to participate, those who can’t have no place. For some of the congregations I know there even are unofficial lists of what kind of sins the leadership can show mercy towards and not, like a grading of sin.
Are visible sins bigger sins than what people do in hiding? Does a person who is able to hide sin a better job in P&W than those who are not able? Can we expect that those of us who are up on a platform are “less” sinners than others? Please share your thoughts on this with me, I need all the input I can get.

[ptrallan01]

A couple of thoughts:

If sin is hidden we don't know about it so we can't address it with the brother or sister. Hidden sin is devious and dangerous.

Visible sin should be addressed with the erring person privately, then publicly if not repented of (this doesn't mean be sorry and acknowledge wrong but take concrete steps to cease from the sin).

I can speak from three experiences here with deacons in our congregation:

1 a gentleman was asked to join the deacons for devotion (African American precursor to modern praise and worship). Said gentleman was involved in two illicit sexual relationships with women who began visiting the church, an alcoholic and dishonest in other ways. This was not known to the person who asked them to join them that day. Subsequently several people who had been attending stopped coming because they did not want to associate with a church who would have him for a deacon. In point of fact he wasn't but the appearance created the problem. When I discussed it with our deacon board he was immediately removed from that responisbility. He never corrected his ways and was in jail for a sexually related crime the last I heard about him.

2 a deacons wife came to me to tell me that her husband was committing adultery. She laid out her case to me which appeared reasonable. I addressed it with him and found that he had what appeared to be reasonable explanations for his behavior, admitted past indiscretions that he had repented of and that he was doing everything that he could to avoid future difficulties. I reported same to her monitored for the following year and allowed him to continue and expand his ministry eventually granting him a license to preach. He and his wife are doing very well currently.

3 a current deacon in trainging had a baby shower for his wife at their home. when arriving I observed a well stocked bar in his basement. Our church covenant has a statement about avoiding the use of intoxicating drink as a beverage. Just today we discussed the implications of alcohol in the lives of Gods people and the caution that needs to be used when imbibing. Knowing Jesus drank wine, this "rule" seems somewhat out of place. This man is one of the best family men I know, takes wonderful care of his responsibilites and I have no qualms about his behavior in anyway. Yet, this behavior will be watched to make sure no problems arise.

We have had choir members who have lived with members of the opposite sex who are now getting married. It was a disturbance to others but I allowed it to continue because I felt it was more important to keep them under the Word of God than to punish them for their sins and they are now repenting and moving to the proper path. It has caused consternation but God's will in having them correct their behavior is more important.

From the bibilical perpective I would refer you to Galatians 6:1, Matthew 18:15-23, and Jude 20-23. Each situation and congregation is different but sometimes you have to "sit someone down" and other times you don't. Knowing the people and the degree to which their sins are public have quite a bit to do with it. Issues such as this should be addressed in private first and if possible only in private. If it comes to public debate then said debate should be lively but loving, as soon as the person corrects their fault they should be immediately returned to the fold and their work with little or nor public comment or ostracism(sp).

Love

Peter

[kewlpack]

Good counsel, Peter. Appreciate your examples. Amen.

~A~

[Pearly Gator]

Hi, Viking!

At my church home, only members are active ministry participants. (These are church leader positions.) So, if you are not a church member, you are not playing on the worship team. As a church member, we commit to the church leadership, tithing faithfully, prayer and witnessing. All Biblical stuff.

None of us is perfect, but every Christian is forgiven and does not live in a lifestyle of repeated sin.

We have asked two musicians to leave the ministry over the past seven years. The first did not tithe or attend regularly and the second filed to divorce his wife for non-Biblical reasons.

PG

[Old Believer]

Hey all,

At the church where I fellowship anyone who wants to become involved in ministry must attend a "Christian Growth Class," and fill out an extensive questionaire. We do not have a formal membership, and welcomes anyone who is a believer in Christ. However, any person that wants to serve in ministry needs to meet the above requirements.

The "Growth Class" deals with Calvary Chapel distintives, and doctrine. It is taught by one of the pastors. Anyone that wants to be involved in any of the ministries in our fellowship needs to be on the same page with Calvary Chapel.

The "ministry questionaire" helps the pastors to prayerfully place individuals in different ministry positions.

My family, and I have been fellowshipping at Wildwood Calvary Chapel for five years now. I have auditioned for the worship team, but I don't play the pop style that the worship leader wants. Essentially, the Lord has closed that door for me. However, I have the pleasure of leading our prayer team. The prayer team is a blessing for me. I get to help disciple new believers, and pray with people at the end of our service.

[stephen]

At my church, there is no membership, yo either attend, or you dont.

The leaders select those that they have devloped a fellowship with: They have witnessed there lives, and deem that they are "aiming for the mark, and running the race to win". There has been instances, I have been told, where someone has been asked to step down, because of sin. I know my church leadership would not tolerate a sinful life style with those that serve. When I say a sinful lifestyle, I'm not saying a one time goof, I'm saying a person that has sin in their life, and knows it, and not whole-heartedly attempting to repent from it.

When it comes to leadership positions, that is a high visibility position, and many in the congregation will examine those in those positions, under a micro-scope. One that is not striving to lead a Godly life, could give amunition to someone who wants to become divisive in the congregation, not to mention it is allowing sin to creep in amongst the bretheren, sorta like what took place in I Corinthians.

[Crunchyriff]

The inclusion of 'sinners' starts at the foot of the cross, and was mandated nearly 2000 years ago.

And you know, it's funny- Jesus never passed out "membership cards" to those who believed. (I'm not knocking membership, so don't get me wrong here) In fact, spreading the gospel is a commandment for ALL believers to participate in. God's Authentic 'membership card' is printed on the souls of "whosoever will".

While we must be careful not to "give place" to wicked behaviour and lifestyles within the body of Christ, we must also be sensitive to the Holy Ghost and HIS leading.

ptrallan01 gave a classic example of this, in the issue of churchgoers "living together". I know firsthand that a certain church in my area denied a bass player in that very situation ANY interaction w/ the worship team until they "made the right decision". In most cases, that would seem like the right choice. BUT to coin a now worn cliche', WWJD? REALLY?

There is an issue of a regional christian group that I am aware of, who has a female agent wanting to book gigs for this group- wants to be their booking agent. She is GOOD. However, she lives with another woman- and certainly does NOT claim to be a Christian. She is extremely warm, honest, and trustworthy. She also accepts the Christian group for who THEY openly are, knows what they are about; and is quite blown away with how much biblical LOVE she is being shown by said group. It is giving her a whole new outlook about who this Jesus IS, and what He's about...

I remember the story of Mary Magdalene, who followed Jesus and his throng of disciples and followers all over the place, while she was still a harlot, who was obviously welcomed by Jesus to join them; and I wonder just how long she followed Him around before she submitted her life to HIM? THAT we don't know specifically; but what we DO know is that, ultimately, she becomes a solid, sold-out, fervent believer.

It's all in God's hands and HIS plan. I wonder how many people we (the collective church) have turned off to Christ, because we weren't showing GRACE when we should have.

That being said, the obvious self-proclaimed "believers" who openly live in and act in their daily lives blatantly contradictory to the Spirit, and show no guilt, remorse, or conviction of the Holy Ghost whatsoever, should be dealt with as per Paul's guidelines. (and I don't care HOW much money they give to the local church..) If they repent, praise God!

If not, run them out on a rail.

that's my $.02...

[seagullplayer]

I'm a little late...

James 3:1 (New Living Translation)

Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged by God with greater strictness.

I wonder how this relates to other workers in the Church Service itself?

I know we have woman that help with the kids that are not Christian. None are teachers, but they do help in many other ways. Some I'm sure would not come every Sunday if they didn't help. But there they are, in Church hearing the Word, it's up to them if they take advantage of it. And they bring their kids to Service. They are not on the "platform" or anything, most people would not even thing of them as being "part of the Service". ??

[refin]

A friend of mine attended a church where several of the worship team members were actually full time club musicians,hired for their ability.They were professional, and considered "seekers", probably through conversation with the worship leader...they were curious about Christianity.
This puts them in an environment that could be conducive to their confession and conversion.I don't know the whole story,but I'm guessing that they might have been screened for really odd personal behaviour and lifestyles. Regardless,they were willing to get up on Sunday morning and make themselves available out of curiousity and a paycheck. I remember before I was a Christian,Sunday morning (and all day) was sacred to my sanity,and nothing could get me up to play.....that's why I partied the hardest on Sat. night, if I didn't have a gig the next day.

I think it depends on the love climate of the congregation-----when we get to a place where we aren't interested in our personal reputation or putting ourselves on spiritual display,we can see the heart and motives of others more clearly.Otherwise,we make people walk the spiritual gauntlet to satisfy ourselves.

The balance is that leadership does have requirements of maturity----but there are other platform tasks that I think are fair game to a true heart in love with Jesus.
There was an old song by the "Swirling Eddies" (offshoot of Daniel Amos) called "Hide The Beer,The Pastor's Here".......very funny and sharp.The pastor had a huge lust problem,but was judging a few brothers having a beer.

[SAguitar]

Good discussion, brothers, thank you all.

We have had three instances in the last four years where we had two band musicians, and a singer have to step down for lifestyles or acts that were clearly wrong in God's eyes. Each time, the individual had come under conviction, and confessed to our worship pastor. Each time, these were mutual decisions arrived at after counseling with him. In each instance, all our pastor asked was that the individual ask God for forgiveness, make a committment to change the behavior (repent), and demonstrate for 30 days that they could straighten out their life. If that could be done, they would be welcomed back on the team. Sadly, in each instance, that did not happen.

To whom much is given, much will be required, and the privelege of leading in the corporate worship of our God is a humbling responsibility. I treasure it.