Why do soundmen want guitarist to go direct into PA?

[reverbbb]

I posted this on another forum. It was a good brain exersize for me to think through. So, I decided to post it again here and get some more milage out of these thoughts.

Question: Why do soundmen want guitarist to go direct into PA?

We all know that 98% of the tone, feel, loudness and life is sucked right out of your playing when you go direct. The amp modeling gadgets like the Pod will improve this to perhaps where only 30% is getting sucked out at best.

I have long resisted this notion and have actually tried this for a while. It is not fun at all.

On the other hand, it just occurred to me the other day why this is such an important consideration to soundmen (as pointed out by a Bose Application Engineer). Each speaker on the stage generates its own waves. Audio engineers have known for a long time, that standing waves can ruin the sound especially at certain locations. Standing waves is where the sound waves cross each other. When a wave crosses another wave, it can either amplify, cancel or distort the other wave that it crosses. This is impossible to predict or control. When these waves cross each other multiple times and multiple frequencies, the results are kaotic at best and sounds horrible. This is often compensated by pushing certain frequencies above the "mix" for improved clarity. But now, the problem is feedback. It just keeps compounding the more speakers that are on the stage. This includes the bass amp speaker, the guitar speakers and the stage monitors. That is where the "soundman art" comes in. Some guys are good at that balance, others are just plain bad.

Now, when the only speakers being used are the main house speakers, the compounding effect of the standing waves are diminished to unbelievable clarity. That is why that the CD being played before the concert is far more clear than the concert. The house speakers are the only ones generating the sound waves thereby reducing the standing wave mush.

Think of the definition and clarity of a single drop of water onto a still pond - nice and smooth rings. Now think of the distortion caused with 15 drops droping at different times, different intensities and being surrounded by four irregular walls with a bunch of pencils protruding from the water surface. This is the virtual effect of audio standing waves.

It is this primary reason that we guitarists are continuously being bomb-barded by this request to go direct into the soundboard. Sometimes it is only based on intuition, other times it is based on a clear understanding of what is happening with the sound at that venue.

I still like to crank it up though. I'm going to continue to resist as long as I can.

[stephen]

Another point in this:

I have heard a couple pastors saying, that they want all the amps off the stage, its too obtrusive, and not a nice background to stand in front of.

I have checked out that BOSE Radial Speaker System. While in a nice acoustic friendly room, it sounded nice, but I still prefer the real tube amp sound. Then a thought occurred to me: I had the guy take it out of the acoustic friendly room, and I sat out there with all the shredders. It sounded weak, lacking punch, and the tone had gone into the toilet. I couldnt even say it was cheap 10watt practice amp good. Heck, to me, I couldnt tell the difference (except for volume) between my little battery operated Fender Twin, and this multi-thousand dollar thing!

I do agree with your one assumption:

That is where the "soundman art" comes in. Some guys are good at that balance, others are just plain bad.

I love what our P&W Leader has done to resolve the problem: Both services Sunday Morning have the same P&W Team, and the sound is set-up by the "good" sound man, prior to first service. The second service, is just "monitored" by our "adequate" (or not so good) sound guy. The only adjustments that he is requested to make, is to the monitors. He has been told to leave the house alone. We've only done this for 3 weeks now, but we have gotten a lot of positive feedback: "The P&W Team has never sounded so good!" "We can hear ALL of you now!"

Now, Taylor has adressed this issue to great lengths with their new offerings: their Acoustic Pick-up system, is designed to go direct to the PA, without a "direct box" in the chain. You set the levels flat at the board, and dial it in on the guitar, and it has to be the most amazing sounding amplified acoustic, I have ever heard! When My P&W Leader, and I were trying out one of the ladies new Taylor with this system, we both had the "Jaw-Drop" look! I gotta give it up to Taylor, they really found the Holy Grail for electric/acoustic! I think it will be, if not impossible, very very difficult to top what they have done!

[Wally]

Because they think you are too loud and they want to control your volume... :shock: :D

[Wally]

Oh, and they also don't understand the big role that the amp plays in your sound.

[reverbbb]

Someone has pointed out on the other forum, that I misapplied the term of "Standing Waves". Since I obviously don't know what I think I know, I will just simply say that multiple speakers create many crossing waves and reflections that can reduce the clarity. A single point of sound source will have more clarity.

Carry on!

[kewlpack]

Hmmmm,

I thought standing waves were what Florida residents had to live with for September and October! :shock:

Actually I understood standing waves to be the point where the sound wave cancels itself out or is cancelled out by a similar sound wave. That's why you have to be careful with subwoofer placement in Dolby 5.1 speaker systems for your home theater setup. If you put it in the wrong spot (usually equidistant from the two walls making up a corner), the low frequency sound wave could bounce back and essentially cancel itself out. But that is only my layman's understanding of the phenomenon.

Some resources:
http://www.wilsonaudio.com/technotes/roomacoustics.shtml (very good info)
http://www.sonicdesign.se/subplace.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/rives/messages/1263.html


Let me make an observation - this is just thinking out loud:
While we love our tube tone, the saturated power stages, the blue alnico speakers, the myriad effects, and those $2000 heads (I have a small case of gear exchange syndrome and am including myself here) - in most cases - the typical church audience won't be able to tell just how tweaked out we are. In fact I would doubt that 95% of the brothers and sisters could tell whether you played through a solid state amp, were using single coils or humbuckers - or even the type of guitar you were playing. There are certainly other music geeks in the crowd, thus the remaining 5% might care about these various things.

All our fellowship cares about is that things sound acceptably good, that we are in tune, and that we keep a good rhythm. They want to shout to the Lord!

Okay - that said - our soundmen may be (should be?) looking at the praise and worship band from this point of view. That is, their goal is to manipulate the sound levels so all of the music blends smoothly and beautifully regardless of where you are in the chapel/room. Granted, some do this much more proficiently than others. Anyway, the benefit of having we guitarists go through the P/A allows them the control they need to maintain a good overall musical tone and level.

I like to turn it up and tweak as much as Rev (well maybe not THAT loud)... :) But in the end we are playing for the edification of our fellowship and not necessarily so that folks can hear just how good our new Bogner head and wall of Marshalls sound! ;)

Enough for now. I am trying to think of it from a soundman's (and typical audience member's) point of view.

Keep on rockin and know that I wasn't saying anything to ruffle any feathers here.

God bless.
~A~

[TheViking]

Someone has pointed out on the other forum, that I misapplied the term of "Standing Waves". Since I obviously don't know what I think I know, I will just simply say that multiple speakers create many crossing waves and reflections that can reduce the clarity. A single point of sound source will have more clarity.

Carry on!
This is a good spot to find out what standig waves are
http://id.mind.net/~zona/mstm/physics/waves/standingWaves/standingWaves.html

[reverbbb]

Kewl:

Your points about the tweaked sound because of the component selection, takes us full circle where almost all of these discussions wind up from a guitarist perspective.

That is: the audience almost never hears the subtle differences. But as guitarists, we hear these things as we play through our tweaked equipment. This conversation nearly always ends with a guitarist saying "If I'm not happy with my sound, then I will be unable to inspire my audience".

There is no reason that this thread has to end here. I offered these thoughts so that we can get some different perspecives (which several have already offered).

Anyone else care to make any points from a soundman's perspective?

[kewlpack]

Ahh cool kewl cool - I haven't been in a discussion like this before (that I remember). Sorry if I wrote something that was "off". Didn't mean to. Just thinking out loud. :)

Oh ya - added some URLs in my post above that talk about the standing wave thing.

Peace Out!
~A~

[stephen]

.......the standing wave thing.

Peace Out!
~A~

Isnt that what they do at baseball games? :wink: :lol:

[ptrallan01]

so I get to do what I want. We have a small sanctuary and with a bass amp, keyboard amp/pa, keyboard, piano, drums and two guitars and amps space is a consideration as is appearance. Our peavey keyboard/pa amp accepts 4 inputs so we tried running a guitars, bass and keyboard through the pa and then to a sound board but our pianist complained that everything was too loud so we went back to multiple amps.

As pastor I like the clean look of the amps removed and the freedom of moving around without cables in the way. As a guitarist I hated having to find my sound in the mix and not really having anyway to articulate it in the muddle...

Our mixing board, recording equipment, cd/dvd player and amplifier are under the pulpit so I set it up to what I like best before everyone else gets there and that's that. Of course its impossible to play multiple instruments, sing into multpile mikes and check the sound from various places in the room at the same time so we forget about all that and just praise the Lord.

Peter

[TheViking]

.... maybe several other reasons as well. (hope I don’t offend anyone)
Seriously, how many church sound guys actually know more than a minimum basic about sound waves, acoustics and so on? You might be blessed in the US, but here in Europe you are in luck if the sound guy knows what a compressor is or how to use an equalizer. Of course from time to time we run across guys with impressive knowledge of the physics of sound here as well, but they are more the exceptions to the rule.
If we are talking about a church that actually cares about the music ministry and have invested in a decent sound system, gotten professionals to install it and worked with dead frequencies and all in the room, I agree, going directly into the board can have its advantages. If we however look at the average church with average systems and average knowledge I think there are other reasons than sound waves cancelling each other and so on.
If the guitar goes straight into the board
1) the sound guy has the power to decide where in the mix u will be.
2) it is less work rigging mics and stuff.
3) the sound guy doesn’t have to worry about unwanted leakage between instruments.
4) the stage looks cleaner without the amps and mic stands (as some of u already mentioned)
Of course I might be way off here, but sometimes I think that all sound guys have at some point dreamt about being lead guitarists. They didn’t quite cut it and now they use all sorts of terms, theories, phrases and tricks to deprive us who actually plays guitar from all the fun. “No, you can’t have a 4x12” cabinet and a top on the platform it is ehuummmm bad for eeeeh the sound waves”. Sneaky lil tricksters those sound guys, I know it, it is just an evil plot to control us.

[reverbbb]

.... Sneaky lil tricksters those sound guys, I know it, it is just an evil plot to control us.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[PVTele]

there's nothing quite like a real tube amp simmering gently, especially on a cold morning :wink: But we have a very small worship area, and even a 15W amp turned up sufficiently to sound good sticks out of the mix like a lamp post. So... as a proof of concept I bought a Zoom 505 II, and plugged it in via a DI box. Bingo! It actually sounds good - my Tele sounds like a Tele, and yet is controllable from the board like everything else.

Now, I do most jobs in our church from time to time, including sound man, so I can appreciate both sides of the argument. IMHO it all comes down to foldback - get that right and you can articulate your sound in the muddle, like Peter says. Admittedly you're at the mercy of "sneaky lil tricksters" ( :lol: ) who twiddle with your foldback. All you can do is appeal to their better nature, or else threaten un-Christian assault...

Like you Peter, the pastor side of me appreciates the lack of clutter up front too - and even from a musican's point of view it's nice to have some extra room.

Now all I have to decide is whether the little Zoom box will do long-term, or whether I would get any real improvement from a more expensive bit of kit, a Pod or a V-Amp, or whether I'd just spoil the serendipity...

[reverbbb]

Welcome PVTele! Great to have your wisdom shining into this great new forum (pass the word).

I may take a stab at using my POD Pro again. In light of some new developments in our sound equipment, I may entertain that notion again. However, before it just sounded too trebly and bright with too much digital distortion. I just need to approach it with more of a softer texture and see how that goes.

[kewlpack]

Rev -

Make sure that you have Speaker Compensation on (if POD Pro has it - may also be under a different name). I have it on the GNX4 and when I turn it off - everything is shrill and hissy regardless of whether I am running through amp, headphones, pc, etc. It cuts the high frequency and makes things sound a lot more natural.

Next time we jam I can show you what I am talking about. All in one pedalboards have their pros - AND CONS... ;)

~A~

[reverbbb]

Rev -

Make sure that you have Speaker Compensation on (if POD Pro has it - may also be under a different name). I have it on the GNX4 and when I turn it off - everything is shrill and hissy regardless of whether I am running through amp, headphones, pc, etc. It cuts the high frequency and makes things sound a lot more natural.

Next time we jam I can show you what I am talking about. All in one pedalboards have their pros - AND CONS... ;)

~A~

yeah, it has it. I think my big problem was that I was trying to be too flexible with it before. I wanted to use the POD Pro and my amp at the same time (as a monitor). This was a weird sound at the church. I just need to tweak with it (the main reason I don't care for too many options).

[Pearly Gator]

there's nothing quite like a real tube amp simmering gently, especially on a cold morning :wink: But we have a very small worship area, and even a 15W amp turned up sufficiently to sound good sticks out of the mix like a lamp post. {snip}

Welcome, PVTele!! Good to have you!

I had problems with a homebrew tweed deluxe being too loud to dime in church. I switched out the 6V6's for 6K6's and it dropped the power to around twelve watts. It worked out great. Even next to a Carvin Cyclops 700watt bass rig, it cut through.

Blessings,

Pearly Gator

[LesStrat]

As someone who has been the soundman and a musician, I can answer your question in one word:


FEEDBACK!


It has to do with reducing the ambient sound on the stage. Even with only one person using an amp on stage, behind a curtain and mic'ed, sometimes the stage volume is too loud in our church.

A good monitor mix, and with some tweaking of the POD settings (as with most presets, the factory presets are not that good), and a decent monitor and you are set. If you haven't already done so, that's where I would start. Besides, all you have to do is find the sound you want, press save, press save again, and your preset is THERE!

[reverbbb]

Well, I tried going guitar direct again yesterday.

While tweaking at home, I had found an awesome sound on the POD Pro. It made my Strat sing for joy. It was hard to believe that there was not a guitar amp in the room.

My truck had broke down on the way to rehearsal on Thursday, so I never got to try out that setting on the church PA. But on Sunday morning, I arrived to find that the soundman had purchased a Bose L1 system. That is those tall slender speaker system that Guitar Center has partnershipped with. It turns out, that Bose has partnershipped with Line6 for this L1 product as well.

The intent of the L1 is that for each musician there will be a L1 behind them. So, the expectation is that there is going to be a MIDI drum kit and everything else will go direct. Even the singers and acoustic instruments (brass, flutes, violins, etc) would get their own or can be summed to share an L1. Well at $1700 each, our church is not likely to buy 5 for the instruments and 1 for the singers (their schematic recommendation).

So, the soundman disconnected all of the monitors and the house PA speakers and use ONLY the single L1. It was centered behind the singers on stage. The singers were in horror when they arrived. Their voices were so loud to them coming from behind. The MIDI drummer was complaining that he could not hear the drums, so they connected him to an earplug in one ear. This helped abate his complaining.

There was a lot of tweaking required during the pre-worship rehearsal. I was to play acoustic guitar for all the songs except the one I wrote. There was another guitarist way of to the side of the stage (where I usually stand due to real estate ristrictions). He could not hear the clear mix either, so he just did his best. When I rehearsed my song on electric guitar and the POD Pro, everything was sounding great in rehearsal (I was standing at 90 degrees to the side of the L1 and 5 feet away.

Now when the worship center filled with people and we started playing, the soundman instantly realized that all that sound from a single L1 was not getting past the half way point through the mass of standing people. So, he turned it up, a lot. Then we were on the fringe of feedback the whole time. The L1 sounded on the edge of breakup and distortion - very strained sounding. The singers were now being blasted far greater than during rehearsal.

When it came time to play my guitar/POD on my song, then it sounded good during my intro. Then the lead singer who sings awesome but has a light whispy voice, could not be heard. The soundman tried to turn her up over the level of my guitar, but it was hopeless. He wound up taking me down to half my volume. I in turn, dimmed my Strat volume (not the break-up sound that I wanted on the sound that I wrote). I still could not hear the Strat over the mass of singers, and instruments. Remember, there were not other speakers in the whole place except for the L1.

Conclusion, a single L1 for a 5 piece band , 5 singers and a 300 people venue is NOT recommended. Multiple L1 has the potential for sounding VERY good, even without monitors. The L1 cannot handle that much program and push it for 100 feet over a standing audience. A single L1 would be ideal for a duet with a pre-programmed drum sequence or sing along CD.

Now the talk is, to go and buy a second L1 and see if that helps the situation. I told the sound guy that he needs to fill in the back of the auditorium with the existing house speakers and not push the L1 so hard. The drummer did not like the ear monitor too much since it only provided drums direct from the TD-10 module and no other band or singers. When we kept insisting that the drummer get his own monitor (which would be near the keyboardist and the guitarist), he said that re-introducing the monitors would negate the purpose of the L1 system and that he would rather just take the L1 back instead.

I will keep you update on how this continues to develop. :wink:

[kewlpack]

LOL - wish I'd been there Rev. My wife and I came down with a cold (throaty - yuck) and decided not to share our disease with the congregation.

Just a thought why in the world do they wanna spend so much on new speakers?!? Put that money into the "find a new building fund". Ahem - I digress... that discussion doesn't belong here. ;)

The stuff we have has the potential to do just fine with the right mixin'-man. Strange that they expected a tiny single monitor to fill the whole room... Bose marketing pays off again! :lol:

I gotta hook ML to this thread - he thought his ears were gone.

See ya!
~A~

[Wally]

Reverbbb,

What a mess... what were they thinkin'??

[tom grossheider]

I've run into the problem where I need to try and reduce the sound coming out of the back of a combo like a Deluxe Reverb. It is usually positioned with the back toward the audience, and the sound guy says it beams quite a bit. I may try a small amp stand or something. Tim Swartz gave me the idea of using a closed back cab, so I put my Champster (2x6V6) in a head box and then using the closed back cab which seems to work really well also. We haven't investigated using PODs yet, but it may come to that.

[stephen]

Hey Tom,

I beleive the Blues Juniors, and Pro Juniors are closed back design. I've seen several use em like a monitor, and mic'd through the house P/A. Sounds real good too!

I'm probbably gonna design a 12" combo cab (again), and put my pignose G40V chassis in there, and stuff in a Celestion, either Vintage 30, or a green back (havent decided yet), but I'm gonna enclose it.

[kewlpack]

Blues Junior = Open Backed...

[stephen]

Then its the Pro Jr that is closed back.

I also beleive the Frontman 15 and 25 ("R"'s too), are closed back. I've also heard some die hard tube fanatics, that actually like those little solid state amps.

[PVTele]

A Vox AC30 user for too many years votes for the Frontman!

Quite incredible little amps, tiny, light, and glorious tone. They really do sound like Fender amps - the overdrive is warm & bluesy, and responds to pick attack much like a real tube amp - and the clean channel is just that: I've never managed to push it into that nasty transistory breakup that I used to hate about old-style SS amps (like my old Viking 50 and Triumph 100 amps I used on stage years ago), however loud I've played. (And on the subject, they are loud!) The clean channel is particularly good with effects - very stable and solid. For the money, they just can't be beat 8)

Yes, closed back cabinets, to try & keep to the thread...

[JimmywithaJ]

For the approximately 27 years that I played clubs, I have always been a major tone hound and dead set on my tube amps. My little basement music haven presently boasts some 8-10 cool amps(various Fenders,Gibsons, and Mesa-Boogie), but I have a confession to make. After my wife and I were saved 2 years ago(Praise God!), I started playing on the worship team at our church, just beginning my second season this Sunday, and with exception of a grand piano and B-3 organ, all instruments are run direct. We have an incredible sound system and tech team to run it! I was very skeptical about achieving decent tones direct. On a budget, I bought a Behringer V-Amp Pro and a FCB1010 midi- controller to use and I am virtually(bad pun) knocked out by the clean,crunch,and screaming "amp" tones I am achieving. Great delays and choruses as well! Even the other guitarists(we rotate two bands) are constantly raving and questioning me about my sounds. I have to admit, I am becoming spoiled by the lack of luggage,immediate cool tones,and great overall sound, both on stage and out front( we use a very cool Aviom in-ear moniter system where each musician has access to there own 16 channel mini mixer), that I don't miss playing through amps at all.
I do however go downstairs and, as my wife says,"move the walls" with some hot tubes pretty regularly!
Peace and God's Blessings
JimmywithaJ

[ptrallan01]

I was thinking about this thread in church on sunday. My drummer asked if we were playing the song too slow. I shook my head.

Drummers always want to speed it up. Guitarist always want to turn it up. Its never too loud for us! Sound men want to keep us in the mix so that they can turn us down to a level somebody else can live with. My guitar is never too loud for me but the people singing around me are like could you turn that down. The beat is never too fast for our drummer but the rest of us can't keep up! Perspective hazards is what they are. Each of us sees from behind our own little tree.

Peter

[LesStrat]

I'm with Jimmy.

[PVTele]

Anyone tried the Korg Toneworks AX10G?

I've watched Korg's demo video, and it sounds seriously impressive, really realistic amp models. The big plus from my point of view is it's much easier & more intuitive to operate than most (big knobs! I can cope with knobs... shame they weren't either skirted or chicken head, but you can't have everything...)

The V-Amp's always tempted me, but I find the interface very confusing compared with say my little Zoom 505 II - I want to play music, not play with a little plastic box :wink: So sold as I am on modelling processors, if I were to upgrade from the Zoom I'd have to have one that was easy enough to set up patches without distracting from the reason for having patches in the first place - i.e. playing guitar!

[kewlpack]

I have the big brother - the Korg AX1500G (see the Korg site for all the specs) and have used it live a lot. Very versatile.

I recently upgraded to the Digitech GNX4 which is an even bigger beast.

So I might be willing to sell the AX1500G. :D Have to go check what the average going price is. It is in mint condition and has the manuals, etc. I think I may still have the retail box even! :lol:

Send me a private message if you are interested.
~A~

[PVTele]

Thanks KP! But quite apart from the freight costs, I've been thinking - why change? The 505 II does all I want it to do, sounds ridiculously good for the price, and hasn't shown itself at all unreliable... so I reckon I'll keep on keeping on - unless something really happens to make me change my mind :shock:

[Crunchyriff]

In all this, you KNOW there is a difference between someone who 'runs sound', and a "soundman". God bless those who wish to minister and serve in this capacity; but if an individual is going to tackle a project like this for a congregation, I suggest the church send the person to a clinic (if they have the budget) or school of some sort to get a real, life-application of what they are attempting to do. It makes all the difference in the world.

I understand not every church is privy to pro soundmen; but as it is written: "my people perish for a lack of knowledge", so it is with some churches who have well-intentioned people "running sound" who either BUTCHER what they have to work with, and/or strong-arm the members of the team into doing things THEIR way, simply because they are limited in their ability to cope with the whole spectrum of issues with live sound.

Then again, it takes a team spirit between the musicians and soundman to WORK together, and not against each other.

I could tell horror stories- and you all probably have yours, too.

Quite frankly, our church soundman could care less whether I show up with only my combo, or my whole multi-amp rig. (which I do on occasion)He can handle just about anything, and does it well. Of course, he's pro. 95% of the time, I'll just use the combo. But if we have a streamlined P&W team sans choir on a given Sunday, and the material is really 'UP', I'll drag out the Marshalls and rock it. Then again, the facility we are blessed with can handle this too, no problem. (hotplates- which I just got my 1st one; help, too)

Aside from the soundman issues themselves, each musician needs to look at the format objectively, and cast the old ego aside. It's all about lifting up Jesus, to the very BEST of our ability; and work sensibly within the parameters in which you are given. ie, small med, lg church(room & platform size), etc.

In short, using the old grey matter goes far in covering (or preventing) a multitude of sins.... 8)

[I ain't that cool!]

In my experience, issues like this start out as issues of controlling stage volume or maintaining a good tone, but are often indicators of two parties trying to take the music in two different directions.

To me, I think a lot of it boils down to this:

------------Utility vs. Decorum-------------------

Staging a band is messy business, both from a logistical and an aesthetic standpoint.
There are loud instruments that must be controlled and mixed appropriately, while still retaining their individual sound quality. There are a myriad of cables, cords, speakers, mics, stands, amps, instruments, (strips of duct tape), and last but not least, musicians that must all fit on a stage together in at least a semi-organized and workable way.
Anyone who's been to a concert (or played one) can tell you that, in order to make all of that work right, that often a venue's decorum must bend to utility, rather than having everything nice and neat. It's just a given in that environment.

However, I think a lot of churches who have praise bands, want to have their cake and eat it too on this issue.
I don't think that there is necessarily a desire by most churches to "keep their musicians down", but I believe that they simply don't understand what it really takes to properly stage a band, and when the needs of the band clash with the ability to keep the decorum of the church and the services "nice & neat" (and quiet), that the band/musicians are usually singled out as the problem.
(As an electric guitarist, I can't stand to play direct, I would always rather open-mic my cabinet for a "real" tone. I try not to have a bad attitude when I'm forced to play direct, but it completely robs the life and dynamics from the instrument, which makes playing a real drag. Most people who are not guitarists don't understand that, and that can become a point of contention).

With soundmen in churches, they are usually not asked to mix and develop the band and it's sound, but rather to limit and subdue the sound, so that they preserve the decorum that people traditionally associate with church.

In a professional music environment, soundmen should (and usually do) work as if they were another member of the band. They mix and adjust the sound of the band appropriately, in order to maximize the bands live output. In 15+ years of playing in churches/worship bands, I've only found a small handful of church soundmen who work that way (or who are allowed to work that way).

That's not a slam to church soundmen, I've met some really good ones. It's just that most of them that I personally have worked with are more enforcers of decorum than actually sound technicians. They are the guys that end up having to enforce the views and opinions of non-musical or traditionally-minded leadership who want a band, but are not willing to pay the price of staging that band properly. Therefore, many of them are left to fight a tug-of-war against their own church musicians.

In their defense, soundmen in general work hard, and have a thankless job, and often the only comments they get are when things are going wrong. Also, I know for a fact that musicians can be, and often are, loud, difficult, moody & demanding. They're often very uptight about their sound, and they resent anyone who they feel is "messing" with that sound, hence clashes with soundmen.

I think it all starts with what the church leadership defines as it's priority or focus musically.

Do they want a nice, neat, subdued music group and worship time, with all instruments putting out a minimum of sound? Or are they wanting a more genuine concert experience in their worship, at the expense of traditional church decorum?

Once that is decided, then the band/musicians/soundman need to follow suit, and work together toward that goal. If people are on the same page about what their goals are, then they'll often meet those goals successfully, as a team.

[Crunchyriff]

Do they want a nice, neat, subdued music group and worship time, with all instruments putting out a minimum of sound? Or are they wanting a more genuine concert experience in their worship, at the expense of traditional church decorum?

Very tactfully put. ie: Muzak vs live music with passion (my "bull in a chinashop" version)

These issues remind me of something Rick Godwin said once (which wasn't necessarily about this particular subject): "Sometimes the boat doesn't need to be rocked- it needs to be SUNK."

I think there are going to be some pretty shocked faces when Jesus' personal praise band and chorus strikes the 1st chord in heaven.....

[Teleguy]

[quote]...I think there are going to be some pretty shocked faces when Jesus' personal praise band and chorus strikes the 1st chord in heaven.....


I've always loved horn bands!

We've tried all sorts of ways. Tech 21 amps with XLR outs were promising, but in another place they had ground loop issues even with the ground lifted.
We wound up mic'ing them anyway.
I have used old Fender Champs too. 4 - 6 watts is about right, but the bottom end needs help.

[refin]

First of all,I'm new here,and although I've posted several times I would like to say hello,and may God Be Praised! I'm a transplant from the LPF,and it is great to talk tone and stuff with my brothers.....

I agree with JimmywithaJ....................after playing for years with various great tube amps,it was quite a transition to do the direct-inject thing.I did a few sessions with some local people,and the engineer always insisted on a preamp directly into the board.I was sceptical at first,but after sitting down and programming some tones,I was quite pleased with the results. Last year I bought a Johnson J-Station before they were discontinued,and have been using that for recording and out on some gigs.No,it isn't the same as a tweed Deluxe leaping off of a chair,but it has really surprised me,and setup time is cut way back.It is still a little strange hearing the guitar come back through the monitors only with no backline........but very controllable.Guitar tones can be funny---sometimes what sounds good by itself is tubby or flabby in the mix,and what sounds a little sterile comes to life with a full band (I underscore the word SOMETIMES :lol: ).
BTW,I mentioned to one of my friends how much I liked the J-Station,and how nice it would be to have one to show (home studio) and one to go (gigs).....he gave me another one for Christmas! He had bought 2 before they went out of business,and blessed me with his spare.

[Teleguy]

J-Stations were great lil' ol' boxes. I got good sounds out of them in church, and they have a GREAT "acoustic" patch.

[refin]

To me, I think a lot of it boils down to this:

------------Utility vs. Decorum-------------------

Staging a band is messy business, both from a logistical and an aesthetic .

However, I think a lot of churches who have praise bands, want to have their cake and eat it too on this issue.
I don't think that there is necessarily a desire by most churches to "keep their musicians down", but I believe that they simply don't understand what it really takes to properly stage a band, and when the needs of the band clash with the ability to keep the decorum of the church and the services "nice & neat" (and quiet), that the band/musicians are usually singled out as the problem.
With soundmen in churches, they are usually not asked to mix and develop the band and it's sound, but rather to limit and subdue the sound, so that they preserve the decorum that people traditionally associate with church.
Do they want a nice, neat, subdued music group and worship time, with all instruments putting out a minimum of sound? Or are they wanting a more genuine concert experience in their worship, at the expense of traditional church decorum?
.


I think that this is one of the best explanation of most church scenarios----utility vs. decorum,especially the part about how sound men are usually playing the role of controlling volume,rather than sonically mixing a band.Let's face it,there are very few musicians on worship teams who have a pedigree and background of once putting food on their table with music,being full time players----most just give the Lord whatever they have to give,and try to do their best. In my world,the sound man has always been someone in the church who volunteered to do it,and rarely had ANY experience mixing.It's been a learn-as-you-go-keep-that-volume-down thing.
This isn't to blast soundmen either----it is a thankless job.But as I said before,most players/soundmen don't have a background as pro musicians. It's often a case of, "I played flute back in high school....I'm willing to try." Those of us who have had careers can often be so into our "pro experience" that we get offended by others lack of it,and it's time that we understood the difference.Always working professionally with our peers of equal talent and experience can jade us when we walk into the church.We used to choose soundmen because they knew their craft,and they were part of the band-----now we are turning all that over to a guy who simply volunteered,and doesn't really understand the 747 cockpit like board that sits before him.Same with musicians----we auditioned drummers before,now we simply put up with them. :D
Why?
I think God uses situations to temper our egos....we hear things that 99% of the audience (oops....congregation) doesn't hear.
(1) Are the people worshipping? Is their focus on God?
(2) Are there lots of comments on how the band sounds bad? (has anyone come up to you and said that your Mesa sounds so much better than your Digitech,and worship was better?)
(3) Am I more focused on "my" sound and "my" parts than my role?

Sorry to go on here....1st cup of java kickin' in! :shock:

I love to play with a great tone,with cookin' musicians,as it inspires me.Why have a band if it can't sound good.like the old days?
Church is often a different turf for the pedigreed player,and sometimes I think God wouldn't have it any other way. :wink:

[Micter]

I have had this discussion on other BBS' and I have to be honest a guitar player needs to have his rig sound the way he wants it to sound in order to be inspired to play. I know the argument that "tone is in your fingers" blah blah blah.. I can tell you that when my amp is kranked and sounds great I'll play better that I can with a POD or the like such. There seems to be a basic trend in worship "soundmen" that they want a quiet stage. That isn't very realistic and well..it isn't understanding the guitar player's need to have "that tone" I'll agree that most guirtar players want to be too loud so there is definately room for compromise on both sides. It has been my experience that soundmen in general have no training and no natural ability to do their ministry well but we need someone back there twisting knobs. I really feel as though a room behind stage for guitar amps is a good solution. Stick the amp that small room and let 'er rip!
The "all guitars go direct" mentality will never be accepted by the tone snobs and the cranked amp will never be accepted by the soundmen so....

I have had this discussion on other BBS' and I have to be honest a guitar player needs to have his rig sound the way he wants it to sound in order to be inspired to play. I know the argument that "tone is in your fingers" blah blah blah..
Stick the amp that small room and let 'er rip!
The "all guitars go direct" mentality will never be accepted by the tone snobs and the cranked amp will never be accepted by the soundmen so....

That's pretty true---truth is,most soundmen are doing what they're told to do,by someone who knows even less about sound.
I was talking to a friend of mine who runs his own sound company,and also runs sound for his church.One Sunday he was trying out the new system subs by adding a little more kick drum and more bass though the system---he was told by the worship leader that 5 people called in the next day complaining(the worship leader is cool---likes it loud). The worship leader gracefully suggested to the complainers that they should maybe change their seating arrangement.
Chalk up one for the good guys! :lol: (just kidding)

[bvmjethead]

Because they think you are too loud and they want to control your volume... :shock: :D


BINGO!