End-Time Views

[dmw]

What's your view of end-times, or the end of the age, before Christ returns? Could it be Preterist, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, Pre-Wrath, etc., or are you unsure?

If I had to "classify" myself, I'd have to put myself in the Pre-Trib group, with a dispensational point-of-view of Scripture.

One certain end-time view could be what's called the "Pan-Trib" view. That means you believe it will "all pan out" in the end ;) .

[OlsonAcoustic]

I liked the pan-trib view for a long time. When Biblical study had become a large part of my life, I began to go the pre-trib route. The more I looked into end time events and their sequences, I began to think that pre-trib is a very importiant view that effects alot of other theological matters, and is also the result of alot of other theological matters. This belief changes ones Biblical world view in tremendous ways, and I think it is much more importiant than most folks will ever give it credit for.

[Pearly Gator]

Based on 37 years of studying prophecy, the preponderance of scripture has convinced me of a pre-tribulation rapture of The Bride of Christ.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Revelation 3:10

In Christ,

PG

[awmiller]

i've taught the study of revelation on several occassions.... the beautiful thing about this study is that it forces one to dig through the entire Bible and experience just how wonderfully and masterfully the Bible is interwoven and interlocking between the Old and New Testaments.

[msaint]

The closer we get, the better. It's going to be AWESOME!!! But for now, I am not really that concerned with what and when. I do believe that I will be on the first bus out (rapture), either way there is a lot of work to be done for HIM and a lot of people to share Jesus with...

In Christ
Marc

[Ravindave_3600]

The Pretrib view has been most popular among American Christians for the last 90 years or so. In other parts of the world, other theories dominate. My studies have me leaning toward a later departure, but I'll be happy if Jesus shows me I'm wrong.

either way there is a lot of work to be done for HIM and a lot of people to share Jesus with

Well said, Brother Mark.

[Micter]

I lurk but don't post much in this area of the forum. The fact of the matter is God's very nature is to supply a way out for his people. You can see it time and time again in the old testament especially. The children of Israel and the Red Sea, Noa and the ark, King David, etc.. etc..

Pretribulation needless to say.

[stephen]

I believe it is pre-trib.

The anti-christ and his minnions are held at bay because of one man, The Holy Spirit, and as long as the church (true believers, not any one denomination) is still present in this world, the Holy Spirit restrains the evil on from bursting onto the scene.

Paul tells us that with the trump of the archangel, we will all be called up.

John when experiencing the end time vision of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, was called up into heaven by a voice that sounded as a trumpet, so he could see things that will come to pass.

When the church is called home, for a brief time, no man will be walking on the face of the earth, embued with Gods grace and mercy. This will be the moment that the enemy will come in and go for a power grab. I imagine that it will be a short time, and then we will begin to see tribulation saints come into being: these will be those that believe after the rapture. Many of these will be the Jew's, who God has not forgotten, and still wants to bring them back into the fold. There will be Gentile believers, but I think the main thrust will be to get those from the loins of Abraham, back on track.

Also, none of these things (the anti-christ's big push onto the world scene, the start of the tribulation) can come to pass, untill "the end of the times of the Gentiles". If anyone doesnt know what that time is, it began in Acts (when Peter preached, and the Gentiles believed), and it is currently still ongoing today! Once the end of the time of the gentiles takes place, it becomes the last push to bring the children of Abraham back home, and the last gasp for the enemy.

[Pearly Gator]

Pre 7 year tribulation rapture here.

Calvary Chapel has an excellent audio series available on line. Check out this link: Somebody Loves You. (http://www.calvarygs.org/radio/somebodylovesyou_radio_online/archived_programs.html) Pastor Raul Ries' studies on the subject are excellent.

There are about four major beliefs on Christ's return and the rapture's timing, none of which will keep any born again Christian out of heaven. It is an issue upon which salvation does not matter but inspires much discussion among believers. The discussion is good if it is done in the spirit of love and it compells us to study our bibles.

The four primary beliefs are;

1. Pre 7 year tribulation rapture of the church.

2. Mid 7 year tribulation rapture of the church.

3. Post 7 year tribulation rapture of the church.

4. Post millenial reign rapture of the church.

Explained using the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, one could understand those 4 beliefs like this.

1. God takes Lot out of Sodom before He destroys it.

2. God takes Lot out of Sodom half way through the destruction of the city with Lot still there.

3. God takes Lot out of Sodom after destroying the city with him in it.

4. God destroys Sodom, waits 1,000 years, then takes Lot out.

There are several variations on these but you get the idea.

In Christ,

PG

[ptrallan01]

For me. But I can accept other views on this issue. The one thing I am sure about is when the Church comes back! See Rev 21.

Peter

[Old Believer]

I'm in the Pre-Trib camp. I know I'm going to oversimplify this, but why would Jesus Christ let his bride go through such a terrible chain of events as the tribulation period. Chuck Smith has some good resources on this subject.

[Crunchyriff]

It is my belief that in all God's word, though His mercies are "new" every morning, and "Behold, I do a new thing"; I also believe that God is 100% consistent in His Word. Totally, 100%

OnTheOneHand: I believe God is NO respector of persons as His Word clearly says; therefore, what makes us think we are any more loved by God in this generation than in the 1st and 2nd century church, where our brothers & sisters were boiled in oil, sawn in two, etc for the sake of Christ? He didn't spare THEM. And there was a time when this train of thought shaped my opinions about the subject. That being said...

OnTheOtherHand (OTOH): Though the label and word "rapture" clearly is missing in scripture- the Bible clearly identifies the event of "catching away" or "being caught away", or "taken up" and we use this word Rapture for it...and many will raze the pre-trib believers as embracing a "new", and false doctrine for the simple reason the word 'Rapture' never appears in scripture. And to me, this is folly. God help them. I believe there is MUCH strong biblical evidence to support that which we call The Rapture, and not much biblical evidence to support any thoughts otherwise.

You all know I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box, nor have I exactly been an official Biblical Scholar; but aside from that I have done much searching, praying, etc on this issue; and I believe the 'rapture event' is sound, and correct. Whether it's pre-trib or mid-trib (before the Beast is revealed for who he really is) to me is of no consequence in all honesty.

Why? Because I know I can take God at His Word. He's coming back for me- for US, no matter if we are still breathing or 6 feet under. All I, all WE have to do is accept & trust in what Jesus did for us, and try to live a life of gratification towards Him, in the meantime.

[stephen]

One more thing, Paul does clearly state, that we (believers) are not appointed unto the wrath to come. The Thesolonnians were convinced by con-men, that they had missed the "Taking Away", or as we modern day believers labeled it, the rapture. The Thesolonnians were convinced that the anti-christ was going to swoop down and get them, and Paul had to remind them, that the man of perdition could not be revealed until The One holding him back, is taken out of the way. Like I said before, The One, is the Holy Spirit.

Picture it this way: a thief is not going to come in to your house while you are there (well, at least a smart thief). If you are at home, the lights are on, he is gonna keep walking down the street to find an easier target.

"What if he has a gun!" you say? Well what if he knows The One who is in control of the house, has more weaponery than he can even imagine, and The One, knows all too well how to effectively use them, and wont hesitate to use them, do you really think he is going to risk it? Nope. He is going to wait til his opportunity arises, and that will only be when The One (The Holy Spirit) in the house (the world), leaves, then he can safely go in and take over. But not completely, and only for a very short time, ..........like 7 years.

[Wally]

Historic (non-dispensational) pre-millenial here. I believe that the 'rapture" will be post-tribulation (at the end) but prior the the millenial kingdom. I also believe that differing end times views are not a reason for believers to break fellowship, as long as you believe that Christ will literally return. :cool:

[stephen]

Historic (non-dispensational) pre-millenial here. I believe that the 'rapture" will be post-tribulation (at the end) but prior the the millenial kingdom. I also believe that differing end times views are not a reason for believers to break fellowship, as long as you believe that Christ will literally return. :cool:

I agree, it is not a point of descinsion (sp?) amongst the bretheren if you want to go through the tribulation, and I prefer the first flight outta here :rofl:

Sorry, couldnt resist!

[Crunchyriff]

Historic (non-dispensational) pre-millenial here. I believe that the 'rapture" will be post-tribulation (at the end) but prior the the millenial kingdom. I also believe that differing end times views are not a reason for believers to break fellowship, as long as you believe that Christ will literally return. :cool:

I believe Paul said "God has not appointed us to wrath" which probably means pre-trib; that being said, God knows when it is for sure, and as long as He includes me it's cool. I shared the post-trib viewpoint for many years for reasons I stated above, but to me, there is a ton of evidence that changed my opinon about it.

I agree Wally- nothing to quibble about.

[Mr. 336]

I have no solid opinion on the matter at all but I probably lean toward post-trib; the idea of a "pre-trib rapture" has only been widely taught in the church in the past two hundred years or so. That makes the whole idea suspect to me.
So long as I am w/Jesus I'll be fine.

[Jaybo]

As a kid in school, I always hoped it as pre-test, or pre-finals.

Now that I'm a poor working stiff I always hope it happens on the way to work Monday morning!

Hmmm, is post-weekend a popular view?

[dmw]

I'm in the Pre-Trib camp. I know I'm going to oversimplify this, but why would Jesus Christ let his bride go through such a terrible chain of events as the tribulation period. Chuck Smith has some good resources on this subject.

Here's another way to put this: "God is not a wife-beater."

[dmw]

I have no solid opinion on the matter at all but I probably lean toward post-trib; the idea of a "pre-trib rapture" has only been widely taught in the church in the past two hundred years or so. That makes the whole idea suspect to me.
So long as I am w/Jesus I'll be fine.

That's a popular assertion these days. It is claimed that a young Irish (or Scottish, I forget) woman had a vision (Margeret McDonald?) about the rapture in the 1800's, and that this teaching began with her claims.

I submit that it may have begun in the first century. Try reading I and II Thessalonians, and especially II Thessalonians, and consider what the church of Thessalonica may have meant when they asked Paul if the "day of the Lord" had already occurred. Many had left their homes and possessions behind because of their expectation of the soon - at that time - return of Christ. When He did not make a physical return right away, they wondered if they'd missed Him or if He had left them behind. Paul went on to explain - again - that certain events must occur before He would return.

I also agree with Stephen about who the "one" is. Whether it's the Church, filled with the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit Himself, it's still God's control of the situation.

[popthree]

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[stephen]

honestly, i don't take Revalations to be literal.

Hmmmm? I would be hard pressed to defend that statement. I think there is more evidence supporting it to be literal, than not.

The book of Daniel breaksdown many events of the end times, and actually points to the region that anti-christ will come out of (hint: its not the popular pick).

Ezekiel also discuss literal wars that take place, with literal people marking where the dead bodies are, and literal dead body recovery crews dealing with their disposal.

Isaiah also discuss the end times, wiht minute detail.

Jesus also refered to the end times.

Paul also refered to the end times, and wrote two whole letters covering that topic.

The book of Revelation is very demanding in the sense that there is a dividing between the spiritual interpertations (a sign in heaven....), and a literal interpertation (and unless you receive the mark on your forehead or hand, no one can buy or sell on the earth). The whole book weaves in and out of both perceptions, and it is demanding to follow along. When it say's that when Jesus returns, the whole world (well, whats left of it), will look upon He whom they pierced, I believe that will actually happen. When it says there will be two witnesses, and there prophecy will be for exactly 3 1/2 years, then anti-christ will kill them, then God will raise them up and take them to heaven in front of the whole world, I believe it.

it's also impoortant to remember, that John the author of the book, a finite man locked in this temporal timeline, was taken to an infinte place (heaven), that has no timeline, and he is used to seeing the physical world around him, but then looking at all the spiritual happenings taking place in heaven, and seeing the things that are to come.

The beast coming out of the abyss is a spiritual symbolizm of the power behind the man known as anti-christ. The image of the harlot riding atop the crimson beast, symbolizes the the anti-christs false prophet, and the religion propping it up, and the cup in her hand symbolizes all the sin and atrocities she as a harlot is making man to believe.

[popthree]

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[Crunchyriff]

coink-a-dink?

God knows NO coincidence!

Remember, the anti-christ is a spirit first and foremost, that has inhabited/influenced more than one person over the centuries; but in the "fullness of time" will be allowed to play out it's role entirely...to play it one last time.

FWIW, I take Revelation both literally AND figuratively. God's Word is at face value, but is also multi-facted at times.

[stephen]

Well put crunchy!

[Mr. 336]

try looking at revalations as a model for worship, rather than a confusing map of the end times.
I can get behind that statement.
There's a verse in revelation that says all the stars fall (fell) to earth; we know that is a physical impossibility. So if the Bible is the inerrant word of God, it must mean something else.

[Pearly Gator]

honestly, i don't take Revalations to be literal.

Hi, Popthree!

Actually it's Revelation (singular) not Revlations (Plural). The book is written by a Jew, using Jewish terms. Things like trumpets, bowls and the like were well understood by the nation of Israel in their traditions and temple worship.

We know that when John mentions things like, (Revelation 5:6), "... stood a Lamb as it had been slain...." that it is Christ. So, when the context makes plain sense, seek no other sense. Of course, a nonbeliever would not understand what I just said. The Holy Spirit reveals to us believers that the Lamb is Jesus. So, all that to say, what Crunchy said rings true.

Is there something in particular that you do not understand in Revelation that we could study together?

In Christ,

Gator

[dmw]

There is symbolism in Revelation. That is a fact. However, the symbolism points to real events. As Pearly said, the language was understood by the reader to refer to other things prophetic in the Scriptures. Revelation is full of OT references. The Romans of the time would not understand this Book, but the Believers, who were mostly Jews who believed on Christ as Savior, would understand. Make no mistake, the Book of Revelation is not yet fulfilled, as there are OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled. The Book identifies itself as a prophecy.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

[popthree]

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[Pearly Gator]

Amen, popthree. No one should view the Bible in light of current events. We should view current events in the light of scripture. :mrgreen:

Revelation 19:10, "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

PG

[stephen]

There's a verse in revelation that says all the stars fall (fell) to earth; we know that is a physical impossibility. So if the Bible is the inerrant word of God, it must mean something else.

This is symbolic. What the term "stars" stands for here, is angels, more correctly, fallen angels, or the host of angels that followed Luciphers rebellion. And it wasnt all the stars, it was a third of the stars. Remember, Luciphers title as an angel before his fall, was "Bright and Morning Star". Else where in scripture, angels have been symbolized as stars.

[Mr. 336]

There you go. That's a pretty good explanation.

[popthree]

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[popthree]

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[Crunchyriff]

coink-a-dink?
Remember, the anti-christ is a spirit first and foremost, that has inhabited/influenced more than one person over the centuries;

hmm, i'm not privy to this. has inhabited more than one person over the centuries? could you elaborate?

Nero, Hilter, just to name a few...

[popthree]

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[Crunchyriff]

coink-a-dink?
Remember, the anti-christ is a spirit first and foremost, that has inhabited/influenced more than one person over the centuries;

hmm, i'm not privy to this. has inhabited more than one person over the centuries? could you elaborate?

Nero, Hilter, just to name a few...

so hitler was possessed by the anti-christ? hmm.

Popthree-

God's word says that not only is the anti-christ a spirit, but there have already been many incarnations thus far. So you know I'm not pulling this out of the air:

I John 2:18 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the anti-christ is coming, even now many anti-christs have come" (NIV)

I John 4:2,3 "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ as come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the anti-christ, which you have heard is coming, and even now is already in the world" (NIV)

There ya go! :cool:

If you study of the actions of both Hitler and Nero, you will see very clearly from a Biblical standpoint, that these two men exemplified the anti-christ spirit: in thoughts (that they made known in print and/or in speech), deeds, and actions. Remember in regards to Hitler, Jews were not only persecuted, but so were devout Christians (far less publicized) and his goal in the churches was to replace the Bible with Mein Kampf, of which he was somewhat successful in doing so.

[popthree]

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[stephen]

What is hard to believe, that there is a spirit of anti-christ, or that man can be posessed by the spirit of anti-christ?

Or is it, that the whole book of Revelation seems too fantastic, and so it must be all figurative, and we cannot take any of the supposed prophecies as literal?

[Crunchyriff]

quoting from some commentary in my bible NRSV

"many early Christians believed that they lived in the last hour and expected an enemy of God, or false messiahs before the end. 1 John applies such ideas about an enemy from outside Christianity, an antichrist, to the many opponents within."

i can agree that there have been many characters throughout history that fit the bill as 'an antichrist profile'. but to go as far as to say that a spirit called the antichrist had possessed hitler, i'm just not buying into that.

Ok... then who or what DID? Your NRSR quote does nothing to nullify my point or what I said here. Look I'm not one to ascribe to the "demon behind every tree" point of view; but the Bible plainly states that there are two forces: good and evil, which are at work in the spirit realm here here...even today.

There are demons, angels, God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and Satan & his minions; and not 5000 years, nor man's technological advances in medicine, mechanics, biotech, psychiatry, what have you; changes one whit of the unseen realms we are blinded from seeing this very moment. They are all very much in play, they are all VERY real, and they each play a highly significant part not only in our daily lives, but also world events...whether we know it or not; and, more importantly, whether we believe it or not. This is not my opinion, this is 100% scriptural.

Whether Hitler was "possesed" or "influenced & controlled" by the spirit of anti-christ is just really semantics here. The fact is, Hitler was 'given over' to an anti-christ spirit influence; and the SS and high ranking Nazis were pretty deep into occultic practices too. Hitler was into total world-domination, with all peoples he deemed fit in subjugation to his Third Reich. A world without Jews, a world without Christians. Ring any bells??

This same Spirit is indeed at work within the world of Islam today. They want to do three things:

1. Wipe the Jews off the map.

2. Make sure the western hemisphere, Especially America (a "Christian" nation) joins the Jews in like fashion.

3. Insure that everyone else become moslems, or die. (and I don't want to get in the discussion of 'peaceful moslems' right now, let's stay on topic please). Remember, Islamists at best will not acknowledge Jesus as The Messiah, just a 'good teacher'... that's it.

That alone fails a concrete biblical litmus test.

Now if these three items don't spell "anti-christ", then I don't know what does.

Peace be with you.

[popthree]

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[Crunchyriff]

i don't buy into the literalistc 'beast' and 'anti-christ' that so many charasmatic churches preach. i don't buy into 'trib' pre post ...it's all late great planet earth all over again.

Gee, I was raised Freewill Baptist, and that's about as far removed fomr charismatic as you can get. Where do you get your info?

The FW Baptist church I went to took God's word quite literally. In fact, most Protestant denominations do. The ones that don't, usually are, or beocome, cults.

Writing books is no more a crime than making tents to keep people dry and making a profit doing so. Forget about men and their "filthy lucre" as it is written. They will have their own reward in due time. In spite of those, God's word is still true. And there are some who write books that aren't worshipping $$.

Question: Do you perchance believe that Jesus was real, lived, died and rose again; do you believe His authority, his miracles, his "new commandment"; or is this all figurative, all allegory to you? I'm curious.

What about Old Testament? is it true, or are they mystical stories that are not literal, not to be taken seriously? the burning bush. Egypt, Moses and Pharoah. Elija and Elisha...and so forth.

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

[Mr. 336]

Hoo boy. Here comes the "litmus test".

[popthree]

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[stephen]

Does Revelation hold a mysterious clue or secret to His return..nope. But it is a promise that God is in control, and it is a model for us to follow for worship and submission to Him.

(my highlights added to the quote)

popthree, I say this in love, but if you truly believe that, that the book of Revelation does not map out the return of Jesus Christ with the whole host of Heaven in tow, that he will defeat "the anti-christ", his "false prophet", "the devil" and his "demonic demons" in the battle of Armageddon, as it is specifically called out (no figurative in the text implied), and many other non-figurative scripture in the book, and other supporting books such as 1st and 2nd Thesollonians, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiaih, Genesis, etc., how can you believe any of it then?

I mean, John even says when the vision begins,

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter."

He did not say, come up and see things that wont happen, that will not come to pass, but is just a way to get our point across. He siad it must BE hereafter. Be is derived from the greek word γίνομαι, which is pronounced ghin'-om-ahee. it means be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be done, be ended, be finished, be found, be fulfilled. The book is incredibly clear, and it is clearly saying, that these events will come to fruition, because God himself has ordained it.

[Crunchyriff]

Popthree-

My my, you either misunderstand what I've said, or you intentionally misrepresent it. I don't know which. My words are not in the form of a shootout nor are they intended to be.

FWIW- I am NOT Freewill Baptist. Surpirse! I said I was RAISED FW Baptist.

What I did NOT tell you was that we left the FWB church after a number of years, due to inconsistencies in their teaching vs scripture; blatant legalism, and so forth. It may surprise you to know we too, were just as disillusioned, and I may have even got more rebellious than YOU, before Jesus reeled me in.

I also did NOT accuse YOU of belonging to a cult, and my words stand here in this thread as evidence bearing witness to this fact; nor was this my intent whatsoever- and I think that was very clear. If this is how you perceive my words and are not creating intentional misrepresentation of them, I ask your forgiveness.

For your information, my path to Jesus has had me on both the staunch FW Baptist doctrine (no gifts of the spirit today, fire & brimstone, etc)
to the Pentecostal side (where their excesses nearly deify the gifts themselves, whist many demand everybody to speak in tongues as "evidence", the badge to wear that you are spirit-filled); to Presbyterian (sp?) before they accepted gays in the clergy; to where I am now...in a Mennnonite-based church that focuses simply on Jesus and Him crucified, and raised on the third day; and they neither deify gifts, nor demand you babble; nor do they say "the gifts have passed and are of the devil".

We let God be God.

We believe the when God says "I am the Lord, I change not", that He means what He says- and that means all the wonder, glory, Awesomeness, Majesty, Power, and so forth is still the same today... & He is not sitting on His throne drumming his fingers in boredom, passing time; powerless.

We also believe He reserves the right to not only rock the boat, but sink it if He so wishes; and in that, reserves the right to keep secrets to Himself and hidden from man- as His royal perrogative.

I take the Bible as the inerrant, literal word of God. So does the church I attend, yet we don't take every jot and tittle literally, as there are allegorical references at times. We believe the understanding of the Word is only furnished by the Holy Spirit.

I believe God is a God of balance, but man has had a way of skewing things, and futzing with the simple purity of the Gospel...for their own nefarious reasons, sometimes. I believe this is how denominations have been formed, and God has simply taken advantage of our human weakness in doing so, and chosen to use us all anyway.

We also give God His due, and allow Him to explain Himself & His Word in the fullness of time, while at the same time, taking God literally for what basic truths He has made plain.

We stupid sheep need such basic clarity quite often.

The fresh views you are offering are neither fresh, nor new, but have been considered and discussed many times I'm sure over the centuries, and will be in the future too. We all welcome honest discussion here.

FWIW- I am neither Pentecostal, nor Baptist, nor any other follower of a denomination. I am soley a Christian.

[popthree]

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[popthree]

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[Crunchyriff]

ike i said before, i believe revelation is a promise from God, that we will be delivered, let me add, that God is in control, that He will defeat the evil one. AND, revelation is a model for how we are supposed to worship Him. but it is not a secret roadmap of the end times.

YA know, the funny thing is it Revelation ISN'T a secret roadmap, and I don't think Stephen was inferring this. I think the biggest factor in all this friendly discussion is, quite frankly, we humans have a tendency to miss God's whole point when He inspires somebody to write something...and we read it. I mean, a classic example is the walking incarnation of Jesus Himself. To me, there is no difference between the 'denseness' of the Apostles & humanity in general at that time; and our capacity to "not get it" today.

Here they were, the Priests, Pharisees & Saducees: each of them devout scholars of what we now call the OT. Jesus' ID was strewn throughout those books. Yet, when he stood face to face with them, they did not recognize Him as WHO he truly was, standing before them. Instead, they identified Him as their enemy, a heretic, a drunkard and a carouser who hung out with the trash of society. They should have known Him immediately & yet they reviled Him. I estimate that this is because they actually worshipped the scriptures themselves & the religion of such; instead of worshipping the One who made them possible, who spoke them into existence.

As an example, there is a huge difference in being a Fan of Hank Aaron & knowing all his stats; as opposed to personally knowing the man himself.

God the Father & God the Son both have a habit of using allegory to make His/their statements, but at the same time and in the same breath, can be quite literal as well. Only His Holy Spirit makes it possible to grasp the wonderful yet terrible words of God. It is my belief that only in the fullness of time, after everything has been "played out" will we truly "get it".

maybe a little off topic but sort of relative in my opinion.....
many christians become very upset when they discover how the current canon of scripture we call the bible came to be. maybe you are aware of it, great if you are. if not, do a little research. you can probably google more information on the topic than you will care to read, in a very short time. ever read the gospel of Thomas? did you know that Revelation was almost left out of the biblical canon altogether?

I for one am familiar with the 'blue ribbon panel' that King James appointed to the task of assembling what we now term the KJV; and in that, many times the merit & consideration of a particular book for inclusion was soley based on "commonality" ie, just how popular with or familiar to, a majority of the panelists a particular book was. Of course, I believe ultimately God Himself had a guiding hand in this, whether they knew it or not.

It is my observation that as screwed up as man is TO THIS DAY, it's a miracle in itself we have a Bible at all.

AS far as your comment about certain Presbyterian churches not embracing the modern corporate view on openly practicing gays in the clergy; I am fully aware of this. That being said, I refuse to be a part of a Christian organization that readily embraces this errant and spiritually deadly view. I don't understand why anybody who shuns this 'new acceptance & endorsement' will still identify with the denomination whatsoever. I would not want the smell of that on my garments...

In closing here I would also offer that I don't remember EVER hearing Revelation preached or taught in the FWB church...so they didn't exactly shape my opinon of the book itself.

[popthree]

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[stephen]

Stephen
what i really find intriguing here is your choice to edit out the one and only statement i made that really matters, in respect to belief. (which was your question....)

Hey popthree,

I wasnt trying to manipulate anything you had said, or omitt anything, I was just addressing the one statement that basically seems to imply that beyond Jesus' return and victory over the enemy in a general sense, you do not believe the end times are going to go down as it says in the book of Revelation. It appears from your statements that you do not ascribe any validity whatsoever to the prophetic message within Revelation, in regards to Christ's return to this earth, that determining a chronological timeline with as of yet events to come (prophecy), a future world leader (antichrist), and the events depicted, is not going to take place, as foretold in the book of Revelation

So,

so let me restate, do i believe Christ will return? Definately. (why did you edit this out?)

I was not editing this statement out, I simply addressed the portion of the statement, that stood out to me, as the crux of our differing views.



........... AND, revelation is a model for how we are supposed to worship Him. but it is not a secret roadmap of the end times.

This is the heart of what I was discussing, not questioning your faith in Jesus, or whether or not you believed that He will be victorious over satan.

it is very easy for me to believe this. it makes total sense to me if i am willing to read and understand this text critically.

maybe a little off topic but sort of relative in my opinion.....
many christians become very upset when they discover how the current canon of scripture we call the bible came to be. maybe you are aware of it, great if you are. if not, do a little research. you can probably google more information on the topic than you will care to read, in a very short time. ever read the gospel of Thomas? did you know that Revelation was almost left out of the biblical canon altogether?

my point being..... just because we ignore facts does not make them untrue.

Hmmmm, well, it depends on what the criteria is that establish's the critical train of thought. A scientist that is sold out to darwinism, and the data that he uses to support his belief (in an unproven theory), will critically dismiss the account of creation in the book of Genesis, because it is not supported by his criteria.

Likewise there are many different forms of criteria that have been used to evaluate and analyze the bible. These can be of help, but in my opinion, they do not supercede, nor do they subjugate the Holy Spirit being the One that enlightens our souls to understand what the world considers foolishness, and that God's Word has been inspired by the One and same, Holy Spirit, and accurate.

Now you did reference some criteria that I assume is part of your foundation for critical review:

When was the bible cannonized? In 375 AD.

By who? The early church fathers as they are called. I could provide there names if need be (I have em around here some where, hmmm, which book?)

What was the criteria that they used to establish which books were canonized, and which were not?: 1) The internal witness of the Holy Spirit, 2) Apostolic origin or sanction, 3) Evidentiary usage by the early Church, 4) intrinsic content: spiritual and moral effect, and the attitude of the early church. 5) Historical accuracy.

If the books did not meet this criteria, they were excluded.

You also mentioned the gospel of thomas. This in my opinion, is a dubious writing that does not originate from the Apostle known as Thomas. It was not recognized by the early church fathers, and it is historically inaccurate. This is why it was not considered canonical.

Now some have questioned how Revelation snuck through and got canonized, because some thought it shouldnt be. Why? Because a few felt it wasn’t from the Apostle John, but could not offer evidence supporting this claim. Others felt that it was too deep of a book for many to comprehend, and felt it would be best to omit it from canonization to avoid this.

The book of Revelation is the oldest book of the bible, written around 95 AD, by John while he was in exile on the isle of Patmos.

Well, I've gone a little long, and I gotta do some other things, so I'll have to pick this up a little later today! I hope this discussion continues, cause I am enjoying it!

[Teleguy]

... i believe the bible, and much of it i read literally. the bible is a collection of different styles of works, including apolyptic literature. i happen to believe this apolyptic literature needs to be read with a different light...

...all of the literature in the bible needs to be considered for it's audience, the time it was written, and the style...

...i personally, grew up in a charasmatic Assembly of God/penticostal church. old women shouting and running up and down the aisles. people bursting out in tongues, prophesies abound, chaos. i left the church for a number of years in a state of rebellion. i had much difficulty with the doctrine, and felt that there were many valid questions that were just not dealt with properly there. it really turned me off on church.

when i came back to Christ (a very long road) I went to several types of churches and finally found myself most at home in Presbyterian or Methodist environments. I'm a member at a large Methodist church today. Doctrinally, that is where my beliefs lie most closely, and basically, that which i have shared here, is the type of belief that is represented, preached, and taught in the sunday school classes in my church.

perhaps it would be best if i steer clear of the doctrine portion of this forum. it is not my intent to start flame wars. i was only trying to offer a critical view that might be fresh or offer a new understanding for someone who might be seeking answers other than those canned literalistic viewpoints most commen when dealing with apocraphy.


You have come through a long and circuitous route. My path has some similiar scenery.
I appreciate your views and balance, and share them.

I believe the Bible IS the inerrant Word of God, but I do not take everything in it at face value.
The symbology requires discernment that sometimes has been hidden from me for long periods before I gained the perspective and maturity to apprehend it.
And of course that process continues. There are many mysteries to which I am not sufficiently privvy to comment upon.

I can make no authoritative pronouncements on Revelation, or other "end times" doctrine.
I can appreciate and chew on the various views of others however, and when they make sense, listen and perhaps share the sense of discovery.

Somewhere between Literal Fundamentalism and Deconstruction Literary Criticism, the recurring important themes of The Bible sink into my skull:
Forgiveness; Mercy; Fruit of the Spirit; Love; etc.

Years ago my wife and I were having communication problems and sought out our Pastor's counsel.
He show us where we had stopped communicating and started playing prerecorded tapes back and forth, or simply kept silent because we thought we already knew what the other's reaction would be.

We were "hard-wired," and needed a couple of exercises to cut out the hard-wiring and discover that we DIDN'T already know what the other was thinking.
I believe our true intimacy (having almost nothing to do with the bedroom), started after that.

Would that we would be as intimate with Our Lord, and each other.

I am often "on guard" about my beliefs being attacked in the world.
Many of us have invested much time and effort into "getting things right," especially as regards our relationship to God, and understanding His Word.

There are times I find His Word as ineffable as He is.
It helps me then to realize that I can never trust that my perspective is anything more than "seeing as through a glass, darkly."

In important things, Unity. In unimportant (or ineffable) things, Liberty.
In all things, Love.

The poetry and symbology in the Bible is astounding, and apprehended differently than face value.
If I get too hardwired about things, likely my Love needs examining first.

[stephen]

perhaps it would be best if i steer clear of the doctrine portion of this forum.

I hope not! I have enjoyed the reasoned debate that you have brought to the table!

it is not my intent to start flame wars.

I didnt think you were.

i was only trying to offer a critical view that might be fresh or offer a new understanding for someone who might be seeking answers other than those canned literalistic viewpoints most commen when dealing with apocraphy.

Thats what I felt was your intention. Oh, sometimes in my opinion, it looked like maybe you felt a bit exasberated, but you comported yourself well.

Wheter or not you wish to continue this part of the discussion, I want to let you know, I have enjoyed it so far.

[popthree]

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[Teleguy]

Exactly!
I have often felt that our expectations will confound us, just as the Jews in Jesus time (when He walked on the earth, I should say).

What if the
"...Streets paved with gold..." (of heaven) are flowers?

There will be some who will be sorely disappointed.

The Jews thought they "had it."
Such is the danger of thinking you've got it.

We've done far too much judging to think we're owed something, and "they" won't get it.

"...Three surprizes on Judgement Day:
Who's there.
Who's not.
And that We are there at all..."
-Chuck Swindoll

[Pearly Gator]

True, Popthree. Jesus didn't seem to be what they wanted, which was a conqueror to defeat Rome. They ignored Isaiah's & Jeremiah's prophecies and even said, "No prophet comes from Nazareth." Jonah was a prophet from Galilee of which Jesus said would be the only sign given to those unbelievers. But, I digress...

Today, the Jewish people expect the immanent coming of Messiah. The Muslims expect the soon appearing of Mahdi, their "Messiah" and Christians expect Jesus to take His bride to heaven.

When Jesus returns to a world wanting a prince of peace, he will return as The Conquering King and The Lamb of War.

Revelation 6:16, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

PG

[Wally]

AS far as your comment about certain Presbyterian churches not embracing the modern corporate view on openly practicing gays in the clergy; I am fully aware of this. That being said, I refuse to be a part of a Christian organization that readily embraces this errant and spiritually deadly view. I don't understand why anybody who shuns this 'new acceptance & endorsement' will still identify with the denomination whatsoever. I would not want the smell of that on my garments...



I am proud to call myself Presbyterian but quick to point out that I am a member of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), a small conservative denomination, and not the larger and ultra liberal mainline Presbyterian Church in the USA (PCUSA) denomination.

[Crunchyriff]

AS far as your comment about certain Presbyterian churches not embracing the modern corporate view on openly practicing gays in the clergy; I am fully aware of this. That being said, I refuse to be a part of a Christian organization that readily embraces this errant and spiritually deadly view. I don't understand why anybody who shuns this 'new acceptance & endorsement' will still identify with the denomination whatsoever. I would not want the smell of that on my garments...



I am proud to call myself Presbyterian but quick to point out that I am a member of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), a small conservative denomination, and not the larger and ultra liberal mainline Presbyterian Church in the USA (PCUSA) denomination.

Wally in all this I mean no offense; and secondly I was not aware of a distinct, alternate Presbyterian group here. How long has the PCA been in existence?

[Wally]

Wally in all this I mean no offense; and secondly I was not aware of a distinct, alternate Presbyterian group here. How long has the PCA been in existence?

None taken! I assumed from your post that you probably weren't aware of other Presbyterian bodies - there are actually several (but not all use the word Presbyterian in their title). The PCA was formed in 1973 when it seperated from the Presbyterian Church in the United States (Southern) - that body later merged with some other group(s?) to form the PCUSA. You can read more about the church at http://www.pcanet.org.

Here is a short summary of our beliefs, covered in more detail by larger documents like the Westminister Confession of Faith.

WHAT WE BELIEVE
Presbyterian Church in America

We believe the Bible is the written word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts. The Bible is the revelation of God’s truth and is infallible and authoritative in all matters of faith and practice.

We believe in the Holy Trinity. There is one God, who exists eternally in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We believe that all are sinners and totally unable to save themselves from God’s displeasure, except by His mercy.

We believe that salvation is by God alone as He sovereignly chooses those He will save. We believe His choice is based on His grace, not on any human individual merit, or foreseen faith.

We believe that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God, who through His perfect life and sacrificial death atoned for the sins of all who will trust in Him, alone, for salvation.

We believe that God is gracious and faithful to His people not simply as individuals but as families in successive generations according to His Covenant promises.

We believe that the Holy Spirit indwells God’s people and gives them the strength and wisdom to trust Christ and follow Him.

We believe that Jesus will return, bodily and visibly, to judge all mankind and to receive His people to Himself.

We believe that all aspects of our lives are to be lived to the glory of God under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.