Bible Study

[Zhangliqun]

We need a little bible study in here. I lead a men's group and I'm frequently out of ideas and could use an assist from time to time.

[Brad]

I'm with you on this Dave! I am heading out the door for a mens meeting myself. Our subject has been Headship. I wrote a brief outline and it's been laid down to brother to facilitate the meeting as a way to bring him in to the Word and provide a place for him to walk. He has taken it to heart and after a year of being in and out, has stayed accountable to the men and the body in this.

It's amazing to see is growth in the Word and how he is now bringing others in. As Romans 10:17 says, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Great idea Dave. Lets make it (with the blessings of the admin of course!) happen!

Not sure if anyone is interested or not, but here are the first few paragraphs of the outline.

1. What it is Headship?....
2. What Does Headship Have To Do with The Gospe?l....
3. Why Is Headship So Important?.....

Since the term ‘Headship’ it is not a Scriptural expression, it will need a bit of explaination. The word ‘head’ is used in the Old Testament when we read of the ‘heads’ of families and of the fathers’ houses. Ex 6:25; Eleazar, Aaron's son, took as his wife one of the daughters of Putiel, and she bore him Phinehas. These are the heads of the fathers' houses of the Levites by their clans. Num 7:2 the chiefs of Israel, heads of their fathers' houses, who were the chiefs of the tribes, who were over those who were listed, approached

In the New Testament, we read of Christ as the Head of the church, of God (the Father) as the Head of Christ, of Christ as the Head of every man, and of the man as the head of the woman. . 1 Cor 11:3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. Also, the husband as the head of the wife. Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

What is headship?
Headship is more than an order of authority or a chain of command.
Key verses from 1 Corinthians 11:3-12 state headship is the element of relationship that is the same from the Father to Christ, Christ to the man, and man to the woman. Headship is how male and female are declared to be joined to the Son and Father in the image that God intended. Headship is a vital relationship by which the glory of God is expressed. Glory is sourced in the Father. The Son has declared and manifested that glory in His face. Each man as the head in his home is to be ‘the image and glory of God’, each woman is to be the ‘glory of man’, or mankind. 1 Cor 11:7
Headship is the element of authority and relationship that guards the form, the order, the identity and glory of what God intended.

[scooteraz]

So, should this be a sticky under doctrine, or a new category of threads? I would vote for the latter. Like the idea.

[ptrallan01]

Bible study verse by verse. Everything applies so it shouldn't be that only certain things apply to a men's or a women's or a child's or a singers Bible study. If you don't want to do book by book (line upon line, precept upon precept to quote Isaiah), there are great character studies in Samson, Peter, David, Menasseh, Job, Abraham, Joshua, Caleb and Eli, Samuel, Solomon, John the Baptist, any of the Herod's, the Phillipian Jailer, Annaias who laid hands on Paul and Annaias and Saphirra, Annas the High Priest, Adam, Cain, Abel, Noah, Lamech, etc. etc. All can be specifically used to address issues we all find in ourselves and our lives positive and negative. Balaam, Moses, the list goes on. Jethro:)

[mattd]

I think we should get a pool of volunteers to prepare a Bible study to post by Monday morning so the rest of us can discuss it all week. anyone want to commit to preparing one once a month or so?

[LesStrat]

Topical studies can be interesting as well. It could even be a matter of posing a question and having the week for us to respond with Scripture. Hm.

[Zhangliqun]

I've got one that I used before, Hosea. Read about how he was told by God to take back his adulterous wife Gomer, who not only had run out on him and the kids and partied with just anything with a beard but was in such bad shape by the time Hosea caught up to her that he was able to buy her back for half the price of a slave -- and in the form of animal feed.

The material price was low, but the spiritual and emotional price was pretty steep. He had to swallow all kinds of anger, pride, resentment, frustration, maybe even hatred, and tons of sorrow -- and even had to give up the esteem of his community who by that time surely knew all about her adventures and likely hissed or snickered at him as he brought her down the street and back home.

The symbolism should be pretty obvious to anyone in here: Hosea = Jesus, Gomer = You and Me. The other more immediate lesson for us day to day is that we're going to sometimes by ordered by God to do things we really, really, really don't want to do and make no sense to us. We have to learn to expect that and, if possible, to see it coming and prepare rather than resist.

[Kitty]

The symbolism should be pretty obvious to anyone in here: Hosea = Jesus, Gomer = You and Me.
I've found that whenever something in scripture is "pretty obvious," then usually other layers have been overlooked, completely passing by any different or additional ideas & meanings.

[scooteraz]

...The symbolism should be pretty obvious to anyone in here: Hosea = Jesus, Gomer = You and Me.

I've found that whenever something in scripture is "pretty obvious," then usually other layers have been overlooked, completely passing by any different or additional ideas & meanings.

While it may be true that many times whenever something in scripture is pretty obvious we overlook additional layers, I think if we were fair we would note that in THIS instance Zhang's assessment agrees with essentially every Bible commentary I have read on this subject. Well, they also have the Hosea= God the Father, Gomer=pre-Christ in the flesh Jews (before Jesus was born to Mary) as well.

Still, if you have something specific here that Zhang and I missed, I'd love to hear it.

[Kitty]

What if Hosea = us, and Gomer = a family member? Or what if Gomer represents a fallen Christian with whom we are in fellowship... who fails again. And again. And again. What if there IS no symbolism, and it's just a story about a man who did something everyone thought was crazy because he thought God told him to?

To me, there's usually something else behind what is "pretty obvious" to most others who have sat in churches and been told what passages of scripture mean. That is really the point of my comment.

I don't read Bible commentaries any longer because they all seemed to come to conclusions... cut and dried, here's what it means, end of discussion.

My relationship with the Father just isn't like that.

[mattd]

There is probably some sort of meaning attached to the original hearers of the story (the Jews) that we are completely overlooking. They're not gonna jump to the conclusion that Hosea = Jesus.

[ptrallan01]

Often scripture has a single meaning and infinite applications.
As children of the Father and Fiance to the Son we are not bound by law, but learn to use the law as the expectation of perfection and should apply it with wisdom.

Kitty, I think your examples are beautiful applications of the meaning of this scripture!!!! If we just think of it as doctrine and don't use it to make our decisions and guide our behavior we fail to serve our Lord appropriately.

[scooteraz]

What if Hosea = us, and Gomer = a family member? Or what if Gomer represents a fallen Christian with whom we are in fellowship... who fails again. And again. And again.

If the above is a serious question, then I think that would be true to the extent that we are all to be acting in Christ's image to everyone else, including the fallen around us. But, that is true because Christ first acted as Hosea did to Gomer first.

What if there IS no symbolism, and it's just a story about a man who did something everyone thought was crazy because he thought God told him to?

This I am taking to just be an argumentative superlative. If the above conjecture were true, why would it be part of the Bible? What lesson is there in it, either literal or figurative? Any number of mad men have used that they thought ey heard the voice of God tell them to to all sorts of things, and the only lesson we can gain from that is they have no discnment.

To me, there's usually something else behind what is "pretty obvious" to most others who have sat in churches and been told what passages of scripture mean. That is really the point of my comment.

Fair enough. However, in THIS case, the one you decided to jump on, it is hard to see that the original "pretty obvious" was wrong.


I don't read Bible commentaries any longer because they all seemed to come to conclusions... cut and dried, here's what it means, end of discussion.

Not unlike what we are all doing here. Commentaries are just that, one believer who studied something more extensively than most, and sharing what they got from it. Nothing more and noing less. However, we all have the cut and dried belief that Jesus died for our sins, and His resurection proves His authority to forgive us and be our salvation from our fallen state. And if I write that down as my conclusion in a commentary, does that make me wrong. And if I tell you that Gospel, have I ended the discussion? Intesting concept...

My relationship with the Father just isn't like that.

Nor is mine. No one should have a relationship with the Father based on another person's beliefs. However, that doesn't mean I don't avail myself of anyone else's study to enhance my own, and weigh their points and arguments to understand what I can from the stories as presented.

[Kitty]

If the above conjecture were true, why would it be part of the Bible? What lesson is there in it, either literal or figurative?
Why, that sometimes (or many times), God directs us to do things that aren't logical. The fact that a madman has claimed God told him to do something doesn't negate the fact that God does tell us to do things. And our brothers and sister will sometimes judge us as crazy. Or lacking in discernment.

No one should have a relationship with the Father based on another person's beliefs.
I meant that my relationship with the Father is not like Bible commentaries -- cut and dried, neat answers, end of discussion.

Fair enough. However, in THIS case, the one you decided to jump on, it is hard to see that the original "pretty obvious" was wrong.
I don't recall saying that obvious = wrong. I tried to say that when we typically go for the "pretty obvious" -- regardless of right or wrong -- then we usually miss other hidden treasures.

The wording in the above quote strikes me as fairly defensive and adversarial. I have no idea why my thoughts offend you, but I apologize for the offense.

[Micter]

The symbolism is obvious to me. Hosea had to take is wife that went a whoring back the same way God the Father took Israel back from their "Whoring after other gods" time after time.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=a+whoring&qs_version=KJV

[scooteraz]

Kitty:

Not offended at all, it just seemed to me that the wording of our original post was jumping on Zhang's comment with both feet; I also thought that his comment was spot on....so I thought a serious discussion was in order.

As far as the crazy part, I will agree to disagree. The picture you painted in the example was just a guy being crazy, not necessarily inspired. The picture was not Abraham ready to sacrifice Isaac, just some guy going through the motions as the guy interpreted what he should do. I still see no lesson in that. If that is not the picture you intended to paint, mea culpa for not figuring out what was intended.

As far as my relationship with God, parts are cut and dried, and others not. I'm sure that is true of just about everyone.

Hey, I debate for fun; seeing other ideas and opinions make me think. Wasn't trying to be a pitb, but I was trying to up the ante on the discussion. Not trying to insult, or be insulted. Just trying to get you, and everyone to discuss/debate the issues you brought up. Sorry if I pained you, I had fun and learned something.

[Kitty]

The picture you painted in the example was just a guy being crazy, not necessarily inspired.
Oh, not at all! I tried to get across the idea that Hosea did something others considered to be completely insane (which was marrying a prostitute in the first place, much less going to get her back every time she left) because each time he believed that's what God was leading him to do.

To me, that's pretty darn inspired! What a guy... I'm not 100% certain I could do something like that, although I suspect that Grace accompanies a difficult leading of the Lord.

But that was just one interpretation of the story. You asked to hear some possibilities of what may have been missed; I gave a few.

My first comment on this thread, which I'm sure would be more clear now that we've gone around it several times ;) was simply to say, when it comes to Bible study, don't settle for what has always been obvious. But I guess at this point I would also add, don't always assume there's some symbolic meaning behind everything either.

peace,
Kitty

[Zhangliqun]

First, there is some stuff in the Bible that is mysterious at least to me (Exodus 4:24, Matthew 27:52-53 as examples), but on the whole the Bible was not written to be a Rubik's cube. At least 90% of the time, the lesson is meant to be pretty straightforward, ie: "I have set before you life and death. Choose life." Not a lot of mystery there. It was written for average people to understand, not for scholars to play intellectual games with it.

Second, certainly Jews would have seen it as Hosea = Father God chasing down Gomer who = Israel gone whoring after everything that moves. This was a bible study I intended for Christians today, not Jews of ancient Israel. So from the Christian POV the idea that Hosea = Jesus and Gomer = You and Me just isn't a stretch.

Third, Kitty, if you're going to say that maybe there are aspects of the Hosea story that aren't so obvious, it would help if you would point out these subtleties that I missed. Because:

Fourth, regarding:

What if Hosea = us, and Gomer = a family member? Or what if Gomer represents a fallen Christian with whom we are in fellowship... who fails again. And again. And again.

And:

Why, that sometimes (or many times), God directs us to do things that aren't logical.

I think I covered these possibilities with, and I quote myself, the following:

The other more immediate lesson for us day to day is that we're going to sometimes by ordered by God to do things we really, really, really don't want to do and make no sense to us. We have to learn to expect that and, if possible, to see it coming and prepare rather than resist.

Fifth, I never said that my take on Hosea was absolutely the only lesson in the book of Hosea, only that it was the main lesson. Again, the Bible was not written to baffle intellectuals but to instruct average men and women. That there may be some nuances and subtleties that are interesting and may even bring some of the plain lessons into sharper relief doesn't change that. (Subplots don't alter the plot of a story, they enhance it.)

Sixth, to say that your relationship with the Father "isn't cut and dried" isn't entirely true. Some aspects of it clearly are cut and dried: He is an immortal omnipotent God without sin, you/me are not. End of discussion there. Some are mysterious: What is the full and total purpose of my/your existence in His plan? Or maybe something a little less cosmic that could actually fit into my finite mind, what will He want you/me to say or do at the diaconate meeting today or at the bus stop on the way to work? Definitely mysteries that have to be unraveled over time, one in a few hours, the other only after death.

Finally, I don't know your theology/ideology/etc so I might be reading you wrong, but an undue fear of all things "cut and dried" seems to permeate your posts in this thread, as if you long for everything regarding God to be uncertain and malleable. It smells like relativism to me. I hope I'm wrong, and my apologies in advance if I am.

[Kitty]

No need for apologies, bro. However you have seriously misunderstood everything about me in this thread.

This isn't surprising in an online forum, nor do I find it offensive, so again, no need for apology.

[Crunchyriff]

In glancing over these comments, may I chime-in? I do believe in duality in many passages of scripture... which I'll address in a moment. But first:

There has been much "editorialzing" about who thought what at a given point in time in the bible thousands of years ago. I liken this behavior to John Madden telling us what number so-and-so is thinking before a given play in football, during his commentary. He might be correct, but he may be way off and it's just conjecture. I'd prefer him to be quiet and comment on what we truly see going-on on the field.

Unless the Bible records particular thoughts of an individual in a given situation, we don't know for sure. We can certainly speculate... but that's it at best. But what we can do is draw from the examples that were walked-out. Abraham, for example, was a man of faith... but when God told him to sacrifice Issac, what was the first thing that crossed Abraham's mind? We don't know. BUT we can reason that, as Abraham believed God, he probably believed that God could raise his son from the dead (as Paul taught in the NT). All we know in certainty, is that Abraham OBEYED GOD. That is far more important than speculating on what was going on in Abraham's grey matter.

Regarding the "duality" mentioned earlier: As far as "cut and dried", or certainties, yeah I do believe in that; but I also look at the scriptures and the examples in them as the Spirit leads and though example A may clearly apply to "Y"; how could this apply to situation "Z"? I find that oftentimes, the principals taught transcend the examples themselves... without diminishing the examples being literal whatsoever.

But I do also believe that we as humans can get way too heady and complex, and can take things way out of context... and when we do, it's dangerous. Just give us a little knowledge and watch what happens. We humans think we're smarter than we really are. Remember, the Greek worship of knowledge dominates our Christian culture today. Yet Jesus calls us "sheep".

Jesus said, "unless you become as a little child, you cannot enter the Kingdom..." I don't know about you, but the longer I walk with Jesus, the simpler I find things truly are when it comes to matters of critical importance. The flip side to THAT is, God oftentimes allows mysteries... and oftentimes those mysteries are designed to build our personal faith.

Unfortunately, we prefer knowledge more than we like applying FAITH in our lives.

In all this: Let the Holy Spirit lead us each into all truth! Help us, Jesus!!

[Crunchyriff]

The symbolism is obvious to me. Hosea had to take is wife that went a whoring back the same way God the Father took Israel back from their "Whoring after other gods" time after time.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=a+whoring&qs_version=KJV

WORD.