Anybody tried "silent stage" setups?

[dudabrad]

Our church is considering trying what we're calling a "silent stage" setup - going with v-drums, all guitars running through modellers (probably PODxtLIve, bass POD), and in-ear monitors. We're looking at this for a satellite congegation which will probably meet in a smaller venue, so we're trying to achieve a good sound, easy to control, and requiring minimal setup. In smaller venues, many guitar amps just seem plain too loud to get a proper balance without blowing out ear drums. (And I am a guitarist who loves to rock out, so it's not about musical taste ... just practical realities).

I know all about the tension between modelling vs. "real rigs", so I'm not looking to re-open that debate, unless you have a really important point to make. We do anticipate some push back from some guitarists, but we're trying to get the best arrangement for everyone.

I am wondering if anyone has tried a silent stage setup. How does it work? What would have to happen for all our guitarists to buy into the concept? What might be some pros and cons of the silent stage setup? Is this a good idea, or should we try somthing else.

Any advice or insights?

dudabrad

[MrMike]

I've never gone completely silent, but we have done several gigs where minimal stage volume was required and we were supplied with in-ear monitors. Here are my observations:

1. You have to have a great soundman. Unfortunately, this is somewhat rare, especially in church.

2. You need to have an "I'll live with it" attitude.

3. To me, in-ear monitors feel very unnatural for guitar. I'm so accustomed to adjusting my position in order to get closer to something so I could hear it and so on. With in-ears, the sound follows you everywhere. You can't get away from it when you want to.

4 Set up seems to take a bit longer, because the soundman can't usually hear what he's adjusting in your monitor mix, which of course is compounded by the number of monitor mixes you have.

I guess it's pretty evident that I'm not a big fan of this approach. Maybe I need to give it more time.

[reverbbb]

Someone mentioned that you can have a "matrix" monitor mix for the in-ear monitor. My impression is that each player can mix any amount of any instrument or vocal into their own mix. I'm not sure how that works. But it sounds expensive and complex.

[stephen]

Someone mentioned that you can have a "matrix" monitor mix for the in-ear monitor. My impression is that each player can mix any amount of any instrument or vocal into their own mix. I'm not sure how that works. But it sounds expensive and complex.

$ Can you say, KA-CHING!$

Four instruments, and up to 3 vocalists, (total six: one vocalist also plays an instrument), is thousands (yes, plural) of dollars, and still a pain to set up right.

Of course our foray into looking into it was a little over a year ago, and maybe things have improved, and cost reduced.

I'd still have a hard time adjusting without my amp (what can I say, I'm old school).

Is it a possibility to improve the acoustical dynamics of the venue? Could you isolate the drums behind lexan walls and mic it? What about isolation cabs for the guitar and bass amps, and have them mic'd through the house? With all of that, you might be able to bring down the stage volume to much more tolerable levels. Just a thought.

[refin]

I agree with Mr. Mike----you have to compromise what you really want,and "de-classify" your ears from that normal marriage of tubes and speaker (or solid state...whatever).Soundmen in church vary widely (was that graceful? :angel ).
I occasionally do a gig where there is no backline,and I use a Johnson J-Station with a Behringer midi controller. I am a self-proclaimed "midiot",but I have to be able to change programs---the band uses JBL monitors,and they are stone cold pros,so it doesn't hurt too bad.

[dudabrad]

This is all just in the planning stage. We haven't settled on a final venue yet, so I can't comment on specific acoustics. The "mother church" in this venture is fairly large, and we are budgetting for a complete portable sound-system ... so there is some money available. The guys seem to think that the in-ear matrix idea is within reach money-wise.

It does sound like there are some significant sound-mixing challenges that we'll need to think about. We were talking yesterday about taking some of our band to another local organization that uses some of the equipment we are talking about. Hopefully that will help us better understand both the potential and the challenges.

dudabrad

[stephen]

It'll be interesting to keep track of this. It would be nice if we all can see a price break down on the electronic drums, in ear monitors w/ individual balance controls, pod/DI's for guitar and bass, and whatever else I may be missing.

But like was said before, it takes a good man or woman behind the board t bring it all together for both the musicians and the congregation.

Thank God, God doesnt care much about those kind's of balances!

[Crunchyriff]

One word on electronic drums:

V-Drum Pro.

[stephen]

One word on electronic drums:

V-Drum Pro.

Isnt that two words?

[dudabrad]

What about isolation cabs for the guitar and bass amps, and have them mic'd through the house?

This sounds like an interesting option. More information please ... how do you set these up?

[stephen]

The cabinet is design with an enclosure that fits over the over top the whole cabinet, and is wired with a mic. I'll see if I can get a photo posted of one. Looks to me like they would be fairly easy to build.

[Crunchyriff]

Isnt that two words?

correction duly noted.

proceed....

[BigJim]

Our Church Uses something similar to what you are talking a bout. We are small, really small. Our church is about 30 feet from the front to the back and about 60 feet wide. So for us stage volume is a big concern. We have two guitar players and a drummer (hand drum). We use a PA system with two monitors. Both guitars are run through direct boxes to the PA. The worship leader uses an acoustic guitar run to a direct box and into the PA. I use a POD Xt Live run into a direct box then to the PA. The hand drum is miced (so he can be heard over the guitars and also for recording purposes). We have two 15" monitors and everybody has to compromise on the mix. Basically they are setup on left and right sides of the "stage". I share my monitor with the drummer, so my monitor mix is Vocals/Guitars/Drums. The leaders is Vocals/Guitars/Drums. The only difference in the monitors is the Guitars. In my monitor my guitar is louder and in the leaders monitor his guitar is louder. This setup is quite easy to do and fairly flexable, oh and inexpensive. When I started palying in thie church we also had a bass player and another singer. We had to share the monitor mix. It worked quite well, but I was always frustrated because I couldn't hear how everything fit in the main mix. Since I was the sound guy as well as a band member it made it hard to adjust the mix properly. I always wanted an in ear monitor so I could listen to the main mix and let everyone else have the monitor mix.

So what you would need to have the setup you are talking about.

A PA, obviously, with enough aux. outputs for each member of the band. This would be Ideal because then you give each member ther own mix. The mixer we have has 5 outputs and sub groups.

A in-ear-monitor set for each member. The is a transmitter and recevier/ear-phones for each member. They run anywhere from $150 to $500 each. You can use a single transmitter and multiple receivers but then you would be havein to share monitor mixes. They also make systems that allow each player to have a personal mix as well as an additonal mix (for main mix usually).

You would also need direct boxes for each insturment/sound processor, unless they have balanced XLR outputs. A keyboard or an electronic drum set may already have XLR outputs. These are about $30 - $35 each.

The setup would not be too hard, just time consuming. If you have a monitor for each member, then each member would have to work with the sound man individually to get their mix the way they want it and to have it not be too loud. This is where the dificulty, to me, would be. Setting the volume levels in the monitors without damaging the band members hearing.

Latsly electronic drum sets start at around $1,000 and go up from there. FRom what I understand about electronic sets is that they don't have the rebound and "feel" of an acoustic set unless you spend lots of money.


Hope this all makes sence. Good luck.

-Jim

[Micter]

Silent stage is against everything I believe as a guitarist. I would sell all my guitars and amps then take up needle point first. :roll:

LOL! I really think the theory is wrong and soundmen learn this from other soundmen that don't know what they are doing.

[Kitty]

Silent stage is against everything I believe as a guitarist.

What exactly is everything you believe as a guitarist?

Kitty

[Micter]

Silent stage is against everything I believe as a guitarist.

What exactly is everything you believe as a guitarist?

Kitty

The guitar, amp, and player are one instrument. The interaction of the three make each player's style come to life. Without an amp on stage I cannot get what I need out of my playing. If you look at it from the perspective of a musician (not a soundman) it is necessary to have the AMP sound the way you want it in order to get the tone, overtones, and dynamics. There is a lot to be said about the guitarist having the "tone" he wants/needs. I always sound better with a cranked tube amp than a modeler running through a PA.

[Swarty]

We were headed in that direction 3 years ago. They wanted to get rid of all the wedges (EAWs which sound great)... I think it was more of a cosmetic/visual issue than a sonic issue. We had 2 varieties of in-ears...one that was wireless and mixed by the soundman and the other that ran on an ethernet and had a little mixer for each person. I think the ethernet version was quite economical, and it did not require a soundman. I somehow avoided them for 6 months or so and fortunately we hired a worship leader who likes a lively stage volume, so for the last 2 years the only one using in-ears is the drummer in the fish bowl.

There are ways to get the big rock sound and still keep a minimal stage sound (it may not be as much fun though). Randy Pierce, currently at Willow Creek and formerly with Steven Curtis Chapman has a Mesa head on stage and a 4x12 in an iso-box back stage while using in-ears. This sounds like the best approach should this idea rear its ugly head again. I have a friend who plays at a black Pentacostal church, he has a 100w Marshall on stage and claims it is not enough amp to keep up with the organ and choir!

[Ascension]

I have used my Carvin Tone Navigator in a silent stage situation and it worked well . Most of the "modelers" like the POD's don't feel real to me and are sterile and one dimentional in the tones with no dynamics YUCK !!!! I have owned severall of these and the Carvin Tone Nav is the ONLY one I would even consider 8-[ using I have played through ( I agree with ya Micter TUBES BRO TUBES !!!) . Here is a clip of a song recorded off the FOH with me running my Tone Navigator direct http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/Members/000145589_000028983.mp3

[Ascension]

I have a friend who plays at a black Pentacostal church, he has a 100w Marshall on stage and claims it is not enough amp to keep up with the organ and choir! Swarthy I have been there and done that only I was running my Carvin MTS and a Yamaha 4/12 with Celestian 75's and easily spanked the keys and bass ;) !! I did however have to run it at about 7 or so all night to keep up and for those not familiar with a MTS that is :crazy LOUD!!!!!

[TheViking]

Silent stage is against everything I believe as a guitarist.

What exactly is everything you believe as a guitarist?

Kitty

I believe in good guitars running through a set of good quality pedals into a killer tube amp turned up as loud as any responsible adult would turn it up, a a couple of Shure 57's to carry my "beautiful" tone to the mix hehe. Wasn't that the way God intended it to be????? :angel

[stephen]

On the eighth day God invented the Class A Tube Amp, and said it sounds good! :angel

[Micter]

Silent stage is against everything I believe as a guitarist.

What exactly is everything you believe as a guitarist?

Kitty

I believe in good guitars running through a set of good quality pedals into a killer tube amp turned up as loud as any responsible adult would turn it up, a a couple of Shure 57's to carry my "beautiful" tone to the mix hehe. Wasn't that the way God intended it to be????? :angel

Exactly!

[Crunchyriff]

Darn straight!! :rofl: That's what I'm talking about!!

My Marshalls and my LesPaul would most definitely agree...

on a serious note, I understand the phobias of some church soundmen. I also understand the nature of some congregations.

I also understand, that many church soundmen have absoultely NO business behind anything resembling a mixing console; but they do it out of the 'servant's heart' attitude of meeting a need.

That being said, if you have decent & mature musicians that know their way around gear and know their sonic place on the platform; only an incompetent soundman can't handle mixing live amps and drums. A rotten engineer can butcher a "silent stage" setup just as fast as a live one.

Iso-boxes are great, but they are contingent on the ability of the soundman to dial in a decent tone- both FOH, and in the cans..

[Kitty]

if you have decent & mature musicians that know their way around gear and know their sonic place on the platform...

I don't know, Crunchy — this is a pretty big "if".

I've been on the board way too many times when I couldn't get a decent FOH mix at the "prescribed" SPL (let's not EVEN go there in this thread) because the whiny guitarists and bassist on the stage just couldn't play if they had to turn down their amps for me. I could drop the mains out completely and hear the guitars just fine from the sound booth, although the tone was awful by the time it bounced off all the walls and got to me. (And yes, we had acoustic panels all over the place.)

I'm not saying it's impossible, especially in this crowd of talented and mature individuals. I just haven't come across it all that much in real life.

Kitty

[TheBigKevDogg]

On the eighth day God invented the Class A Tube Amp, and said it sounds good! :angel

and then he saw that amplifier was lonely, and made Telecaster to acompany it and make it happy!

And no I couldn't live without my twin live...although I do have to have it on 1/4 power (down to 25 watts from 100) on volume 2 on each channel lol. this thing screams! I use my amp as a monitor, facing back towards me, and send it to the board through my SM57

[Swarty]

On the eighth day God invented the Class A Tube Amp, and said it sounds good! :angel

and then he saw that amplifier was lonely, and made Telecaster to acompany it and make it happy!

And no I couldn't live without my twin live...although I do have to have it on 1/4 power (down to 25 watts from 100) on volume 2 on each channel lol. this thing screams! I use my amp as a monitor, facing back towards me, and send it to the board through my SM57

Yes, using the amp as a personal monitor is essential IMO. I use a sealed cab placed in front of me, tilted back (I lean it back on an old hotspot that hasn't seen any action in the last 10 years). It is pointed right at my face, usually right next to a wedge monitor. The result is a nice hot guitar sound for me (enough for endless sustain and controlled feedback), and with a little luck, not a really hot guitar sound for the other musicians. I used to use a Princeton Reverb tilted back the same way, but a lot sound comes out the back (we did get a plexi baffle for those that do use combos), and it was harder to get the lively sound I so enjoy without annoying my neighbors! FWIW, the current rig is a Marshall 20w head and Mesa Recto 1x12 w/ SRO.

[TheBigKevDogg]

On the eighth day God invented the Class A Tube Amp, and said it sounds good! :angel

and then he saw that amplifier was lonely, and made Telecaster to acompany it and make it happy!

And no I couldn't live without my twin live...although I do have to have it on 1/4 power (down to 25 watts from 100) on volume 2 on each channel lol. this thing screams! I use my amp as a monitor, facing back towards me, and send it to the board through my SM57

Yes, using the amp as a personal monitor is essential IMO. I use a sealed cab placed in front of me, tilted back (I lean it back on an old hotspot that hasn't seen any action in the last 10 years). It is pointed right at my face, usually right next to a wedge monitor. The result is a nice hot guitar sound for me (enough for endless sustain and controlled feedback), and with a little luck, not a really hot guitar sound for the other musicians. I used to use a Princeton Reverb tilted back the same way, but a lot sound comes out the back (we did get a plexi baffle for those that do use combos), and it was harder to get the lively sound I so enjoy without annoying my neighbors! FWIW, the current rig is a Marshall 20w head and Mesa Recto 1x12 w/ SRO.

So why is it that combo's leak more sound? I'm playing through a Fender ProTube Twin Amp. Does the plexi really work in stopping the sound leakage?

[seagullplayer]

Acoustic for life!

"Direct box" = good :angel

[TheBigKevDogg]

Acoustic for life!

"Direct box" = good :angel

Or if you've got a Taylor with the new Expression System, you don't even need a direct box! It's balanced so you just plug it straight into an XLR jack (and sounds amazing).

But playing electric can be a LOT more fun! (in worship settings at least)

[Swarty]

On the eighth day God invented the Class A Tube Amp, and said it sounds good! :angel

and then he saw that amplifier was lonely, and made Telecaster to acompany it and make it happy!

And no I couldn't live without my twin live...although I do have to have it on 1/4 power (down to 25 watts from 100) on volume 2 on each channel lol. this thing screams! I use my amp as a monitor, facing back towards me, and send it to the board through my SM57

Yes, using the amp as a personal monitor is essential IMO. I use a sealed cab placed in front of me, tilted back (I lean it back on an old hotspot that hasn't seen any action in the last 10 years). It is pointed right at my face, usually right next to a wedge monitor. The result is a nice hot guitar sound for me (enough for endless sustain and controlled feedback), and with a little luck, not a really hot guitar sound for the other musicians. I used to use a Princeton Reverb tilted back the same way, but a lot sound comes out the back (we did get a plexi baffle for those that do use combos), and it was harder to get the lively sound I so enjoy without annoying my neighbors! FWIW, the current rig is a Marshall 20w head and Mesa Recto 1x12 w/ SRO.

So why is it that combo's leak more sound? I'm playing through a Fender ProTube Twin Amp. Does the plexi really work in stopping the sound leakage?

With combo amps or open back cabs you get nearly as much sound coming out of the back as you do out of the front. And if you have it backed up against a wall the dispersion will flood everywhere. The plexi baffle helps, but a sealed cab is the best solution I've found. A sealed cab is very directional, producing a very focused beam of sound. I got into trouble one time when I positioned my music stand in front of the beam. The beam was deflected into the congregation, more specifically right where the head pastor happened to be sitting. He informed the soundman that the guitar was way too loud... Well, one more thing to think about when I set up.

[TheViking]

In my opinion there are several factors playing important parts in getting good sound in church.
1. The reason we do play in church is to give glory to God and make a joyful noise for him. If we loose that focus and start seeing the need for giving glory to ourselves, we’re lost. We do not play in church to show off our talents or our gear.
2. A church will often spend ridiculous amounts on the appearance of the church without being willing to spend any kind of money on a good sound system. If a church doesn’t have the skills needed to design a good PA-system, get professional help to do so. It doesn’t help a bit to have pretty lamps or impressive portals if people can’t get decent hearing in the room.
3. The people running the sound systems should be trained and practice on their own, just as musicians, dancers and everyone else have to do. Knowledge is crucial to obtain good sound, or good “anything” for that matter.
4. Communication is everything. The technicians, the musicians and the congregation should be able to talk about what works and what doesn’t work.
If we keep these simple “rules” and apply common sense, it should be possible to obtain a decent situation for the musicians, for the technicians and for the congregation, silent stage or no silent stage.

[Crunchyriff]

I don't know, Crunchy — this is a pretty big "if".

I've been on the board way too many times when I couldn't get a decent FOH mix at the "prescribed" SPL (let's not EVEN go there in this thread) because the whiny guitarists and bassist on the stage just couldn't play if they had to turn down their amps for me.

Kitty- I find that both amazing, and highly, sadly unfortunate. It shouldn't be like that. Did you offer them some cheese with their whine? :mrgreen:

You know Viking's rule #1 is paramount- and if certain players can't understand that, they should be jettisoned until they seek to serve with a SERVANT'S heart. Right now, a few of your players' descriptions sound pretty self-serving. They have no business up there. (IMHO of course..)

This isn't "their gig"- it's God house, God's platform, God's worship team, GOD's GIG; and the serving P&W body should be functioning as such.

I'm not being an idealist here, as much as I may sound like it.

Saying that to say this: no matter what the P&W team is composed of on any given Sunday, (anywhere from slightly more than a 6- piece group wiht four vocalists, all the way up to a full-blown orchestra and choir (and all points in between as well); our acoustic guitar players are never drowned out. They can always hear themselves- no matter if they are running personal AcousticGuitar amps or going direct.

OF course, then this boils down to what I was saying earlier about players humbly giving place for all on the team, instead of self-gratification; and the engineer's ability to bring it all out- both on stage and FOH.

BTW, how are you feeling, Kitty?

[Kitty]

I'm not so much saying it was an ego thing with the amp level rather than some kind of paranoid thing. Like "my playing will suck if I have to turn it down." I don't understand it.

So when an electric guitar player shows up with an amp and says "I have to play through my amp and you can mic it" I just cringe inside and think oh boy, here we go again.

Let's see.... which one should suck? Your playing or the entire house mix? Hmmmm.

Now I recognize that as an acoustic player, I can still hear well enough to play something even if my monitor mix is trashed, and you can't if you're on electric. But still... how can you "not hear it" if I can hear it all the way on the back wall with nothing in the mains? I don't get it

Ok, and I'll also admit that I've learned here that some guitarists just really consider their amp to be a part of the whole instrument, and they depend on it to complete their style. Ok, ok. But still. Can you not play if it's not perfect? My monitor isn't perfect either but you don't see me frowning and crying about it.

Blah, blah, blah. Now I'm just ranting.



BTW, how are you feeling, Kitty?

I'm slowly but steadily recovering. Thanks for asking. :-) I did post a brief update over in the prayer folder. As I said there, and as I said in PM to Stephen, I don't think I've ever had a bunch of guys hover protectively over me like this. You guys don't know what that means. You must all be great fathers or something. :-)

Kitty

[stephen]

... how can you "not hear it" if I can hear it all the way on the back wall with nothing in the mains? I don't get it
Kitty

Wednesday I had to take my youngest son in to the doctors cause he's havin problems with his tonsils. The Specialist (Eye, Ear, Nose Throat) Started checking him out, and the first thing is the ears. He peeks in there, turns to me and says, "Hey dad, any problems with him not listening to you?" I know where he's going with this. I said Yeah, all the time, its like trying to deal with someone who's deaf! The Doc then says, "lets see if I can find a reason for that" He then proceeds to dig out of the right ear a big narly ball of wax the size of a 2 carat diamond! The left ear yeilds two 1 carat crud-balls! The doctor then whispers (Verizon Cellular should be smiling) "Can you hear me now?" My sons eyes get wide and says "wow, I can hear really clearly now!"

The moral of the story: take those guitarists to a doctor to check their tonsils! :rofl:

[Crunchyriff]

Kitty,

as a guitarist (har- surprise!) I can tell you that at the bottom of their reasons, it IS ego. Period.

Let me tell you WHY.

Put it this way: as Micter stated, yes, for the electric guitarist, the player's hands, & their guitar and amp make up a whole product, if you will. That is fact. It's all an interactive package; in fact, I'll go so far to say that most advanced-to-pro guitarists in many cases "play the amp" more than they "play the guitar". As far as "oh I'll suck if I have to keep it low": the mature, seasoned &/or pro player learns to play above and beyond any shortcomings they have to deal with onstage.

All things considered, the same mature and seasoned player will usually not choose to use the wrong amp for the wrong venue. In other words the "uhh, sorry but I've gotta turn it up before it sounds good" player has his head in the wrong place here.

First, the considerations of the team and music are the priority; secondly, the player should choose the amp that works best in this circumstance whenever possible; and when it's not possible, they "make due" and grin and bear it, deferring to the needs of the P&W group as a whole.

I'll never let anyone use "direct" or "line out" on my big rig, or even a simple combo; but then again they don't need to. I don't go blowing people off the platform with volume. I can pretty much get the sounds I want at any volume, whether using my simple Traynor combo, or a three-amp rig; and though amps have certain "sweet spots" on the volume control, (most of the time fairly loud) I'm not going to lose any sleep over not getting to use them like that during P&W.

Yes, Kitty, I could show up at your church with a very naughty Marshall half-stack, and you'd be able to hear yourself just fine. Any other decent player can do the same. It's not rocket science, it's just knowing your gear, and having the right attitude.

It's for Jesus, it's not for me, and so if if He's pleased, I'm pleased. What more can one want than that?

Glad to hear your on the mend. Praise God!!

[Micter]

OK, Crunchyriff makes a great point about bringing the right amp. I have everything from a 15watt 1x12 combo up to a 200watt full stack and anything in between. I will more often than not be getting by with a volume I am not really comfortable with but that is just the way things go. Maybe I came off as being of a wrong heart and I understand that you all don't really know me that well. I assure you I am not playing music for my own glory. My heart is to use the gift that God has given me to win souls/preach the Gospel. In doing so I want to sound the best that I can. That means having the interaction of the guitar amp on stage. I don't play worship. I'm involved in more of an outreach band situation allthough we do play some worship type songs.

Kitty

I guess the way you feel about guitar amps is the way I feel about silent stages. :dunno

[Swarty]

So when an electric guitar player shows up with an amp and says "I have to play through my amp and you can mic it" I just cringe inside and think oh boy, here we go again.


We are very blessed to have a great tech-team ministry The leader is a full-time sound-tech who has an amazing servant's heart as well as excellent technical chops and a musical ear (quite a feat for a 23 year old!). It was not always this way. Before Josh it was all volunteers and much was left to chance. Sound was inconsistent and sometimes just bad (I play twice a month and sit in the congregation the weeks when not playing). I know these guys worked hard, and for all the right reasons, they went to training sessions and so on, but it is a fairly large and sophisticated system, and they were just overwhelmed. These guys much preferred the DI approach because it is more convenient and there are less variables. Josh, however prefers to mic a cab as this gives him the best guitar sound to work with. I of course, couldn't be happier about it. A great side benefit is that under Josh's training and ministering the main volunteer tech we had before has become an excellent mixer, and there are several others that are almost ready to take over FOH. Within the next year or so he hopes to have a monitor mix person that will have a console just off-stage.

[Kitty]

... the same mature and seasoned player will usually not choose to use the wrong amp for the wrong venue... ... the player should choose the amp that works best in this circumstance whenever possible; and when it's not possible, they "make due" and grin and bear it, deferring to the needs of the P&W group as a whole.

Crunchyriff, I think I just had an "aha" moment. Blindingly obvious now that you said it to me. :-) Different amps for different venues. Of course! Maybe the problem is the guitarists I've know didn't know that either.

Got it now, thanks.

But the way, I don't attend that church any longer. Where I am now, we're so small it doesn't matter...

...yet. :cool:

love you guys,
Kitty

[Kitty]

Hey Micter, don't back off man. You were the one who made the light bulb go on in my head that the amp is part of the instrument to you. I had never considered that before, and if I'm ever in a situation again of training sound people, I'll include that from now on. You're fanatical about it; I got my fanatical side too, bro!

I guess the way you feel about guitar amps is the way I feel about silent stages. I Dunno

Just to clarify, I don't have a stance on the silent stage thing. Never used it, so I'm a little cynical and suspicious of it, to be honest. :mrgreen: Not to mention I don't think the cost is justified. But these are all just opinions out of my ignorance. I've never tried it.

My resitance is for other reasons than yours. When leading worship, I "strongly dislike" anything that separates me from the congregation. I don't use lead sheets; I play strictly from memory — because the music stand is a barrier between me and them. I'm already behind a guitar and a mic stand; I don't want any more separation.

It seems to me that in-ear monitors would isolate me even more from the people. THEY aren't mic'd — how am I going to hear them singing? How am I going to sense what is going on in the room if I'm in my own little sound bubble? I just think an in-ear monitor system places the excellence of the music (which is a good thing to strive for) at a higher place of importance than keeping an organic connection with the people I'm attempting to lead into worship. I love excellence in music. But the latter is more important in my opinion. That's what I'm fanatical about.

Anyway, you gave me some insight and I appreciate that.

Kitty

[Kitty]

P.S. to Stephen: EEEEeeeeewww!


And to swarty: You guys have a treasure in Josh!

[Crunchyriff]

Micter, I don't think you 'came of wrong', bruddah. Not at all. What I heard in your post was: You have passion for what you do, what you play, and what makes you tick as a musician, so to speak. I respect that, and know exactly what you mean. I'm pretty much wired the same way. And certainly, there is a difference between a gig band, outreach band; and a P&W team. The dynamic on the latter is so different, as is the focus. (as it should be)

Tell ya what: 9 times outta ten, when I'm approached by a "soundman" who demands all the electrics "go direct", ususally that means they don't know their fanny from a hot rock about live sound. I could bet money and win big on that one, if I was a betting kinda guy.

ON another note, I too, like Swarty, attend a church that has a pro soundman (this guy is the FOH engineer for the international Celebrant Singers) and has a few well-groomed stand-ins when he's on the road; but we are also blessed to have a large pool of top level musicians and vocalists which I am humbled to be included amongst.

These two things have a huge impact on what goes on behind the scenes so to speak, on the logistics of decent mixes and such. (pro singers/players and pro engineers)

[Micter]

Crunchyriff!

Thanx Bro! I just have to 100% agree that the everything direct mentality comes from a lack of understanding and from someone that doesn't know how to run sound.

I just think about all the soundmen that ran boards before the direct days. LOL! They had to deal with Marshall stacks cranked and they didn't seem to have a problem. This mentallity is only in churches and to be honest I don't know why but it seems to be handed down from one incapable soundman to the next.

Kitty

I am not backing down and I hope you don't really think I was. :lol: I was trying to agree to dissagree in a polite way. (It is a bit out of character for me) I play guitar through a tube amp as loud as I can get away with in order to get the tone I desire. Sometimes my tone just isn't there and I have to deal with it. Oh well!

[dudabrad]

This is great discussion. Thank you all for being so honest about your opinions.

I wish I could update you on our silent stage experience, but we're not gonna run our first new service until September (and won't be going weekly until at least January 06). We are looking at a fairly small venue though (much smaller than we're used to), so the sound thing will be an issue.

btw, the iso-box option has given us another idea to kick around. Great.

P&W is kinda like kissing porcupines. Some churches are blessed with profesional level techs and musicians. Most churches have to make do with well meaning, trying hard, but (let's face it) still kinda amateur musicans and techs (myself included ... I've been playing for 20 years, and I think I'm a solid p&w guitarist, but I'm also no Eddie van Halen or Eric Clapton ... or Mark Tremonti for you "youngens"). We've got some great young musicians coming up, but they're still a little rough. Give them a couple more years and they'll be fantastic.

Add to that the fact that some church-goers are hestitant, or even opposed, to guitar-driven "rock-style" worhip, and much grace is always needed. Hopefully, in our new service, this will be less of an issue, because those who don't like it can always go to our main campus service.

Ultimately, our prayer is that we can find a solution that guitarists, sound techs, and congregation members will all find suitable for worshipping. Attitude is a huge part of it, but the technical side is vital too. God deserves excellence ... both of heart and hands.

This is a great forum. Keep it coming!

[Kitty]

I am not backing down and I hope you don't really think I was. :lol: I was trying to agree to dissagree in a polite way. (It is a bit out of character for me) I play guitar through a tube amp as loud as I can get away with in order to get the tone I desire. Sometimes my tone just isn't there and I have to deal with it. Oh well!

Oh I didn't mean like back down from your viewpoint, but rather don't back down from the conversation. It sounded kind of like you were saying "well you think this and I think that, so I'm done talking with you now."

I guess maybe "don't back away" might have been a better way to say it.

Kitty

[Micter]

I am not backing down and I hope you don't really think I was. :lol: I was trying to agree to dissagree in a polite way. (It is a bit out of character for me) I play guitar through a tube amp as loud as I can get away with in order to get the tone I desire. Sometimes my tone just isn't there and I have to deal with it. Oh well!

Oh I didn't mean like back down from your viewpoint, but rather don't back down from the conversation. It sounded kind of like you were saying "well you think this and I think that, so I'm done talking with you now."

I guess maybe "don't back away" might have been a better way to say it.

Kitty

Oh OK! I'm still here following the thread and if I have anything else to add I surley will.

[dudabrad]

On a somewhat related topic about stage sound, I just posted a new question. See the post: "Where on the stage do you put your amp?"

I didn't want to clog this thread with too many topics, but I appreciate any input on this new thread.

thanks.

[prscustom24]

In my opinion there are several factors playing important parts in getting good sound in church.
1. The reason we do play in church is to give glory to God and make a joyful noise for him. If we loose that focus and start seeing the need for giving glory to ourselves, we’re lost. We do not play in church to show off our talents or our gear.
2. A church will often spend ridiculous amounts on the appearance of the church without being willing to spend any kind of money on a good sound system. If a church doesn’t have the skills needed to design a good PA-system, get professional help to do so. It doesn’t help a bit to have pretty lamps or impressive portals if people can’t get decent hearing in the room.
3. The people running the sound systems should be trained and practice on their own, just as musicians, dancers and everyone else have to do. Knowledge is crucial to obtain good sound, or good “anything” for that matter.
4. Communication is everything. The technicians, the musicians and the congregation should be able to talk about what works and what doesn’t work.
If we keep these simple “rules” and apply common sense, it should be possible to obtain a decent situation for the musicians, for the technicians and for the congregation, silent stage or no silent stage.

I would say the Baptists in the US have made both a science and an art of sound in their sanctuaries. In the Baptist churches I've been in, it seems to be all about the music. The EQ is studio grade. From my first exposure in a tiny church in Detroit, MI to the stadium-style building the members affectionately refer to as Bapto-Dome here in Plano TX, the acoustics are world-class. I'm not a Baptist myself, but I tell my wife, when I'm frustrated with my own church's casual approach to the sonics, if I were to convert, that's where I'd wanna go.

[SAguitar]

Is there anyplace in the Bible it talks about very quiet praise music? Loud and joyous are the adjectives I remember. Maybe that's just me. ;)

[PVTele]

I've become quite comfortable with our own odd approach at our church - no monitors, in or out of ear, everything through the PA (using a processor myself - see my post http://guitaristsprais.forumsplace.com/message-860-20.html - and Carlbro nlightn NXT (nearly omnidirectional) speakers. How they avoid feedback I'm not a good enough physicist to understand, but they do, and it sounds great, really open and natural... (see http://www.nxtsound.com/technology/technologyIndex.php?MODE=SURF for a full and mind-boggling explanation.

But to quote the most excellent Viking:

The reason we do play in church is to give glory to God and make a joyful noise for him. If we loose that focus and start seeing the need for giving glory to ourselves, we’re lost. We do not play in church to show off our talents or our gear.

and

Communication is everything. The technicians, the musicians and the congregation should be able to talk about what works and what doesn’t work.

If we keep these simple “rules” and apply common sense, it should be possible to obtain a decent situation for the musicians, for the technicians and for the congregation, silent stage or no silent stage.

These are the ground rules, surely!

I think you might like the occasional Vineyard too, PRS :cool: - we seem as a movement to have some of the right priorities about sound! Now I've been to quite a few different Vineyards, and Vineyard conferences, and played at a few too. And you see all manner of different combinations right from 'silent stage' to all-acoustic, and everything in between - little amps mic'd, big uns not miked just balanced by ear the old-fashioned way, V-drums, DTX drums, plain ol' drums, down to a single djembe. And mostly they sound good - because everyone, instrumentalists, singers, sound guys - is working to give glory to God - who after all inhabits the praises of his people.

I think if we all kept that in mind - that God inhabits, is enthroned on, the praises of his people - we'd all be filled with the fear of his holiness, and we'd forget any little niggles with the sound guy, or the drummer, or whoever else makes it harder for us to be heard just the way we feel we deserve!

I know I have to keep remembering that - I come from a background where the proper approach is to crank an AC30TB wide open, and leave it there :mrgreen:

[Brian]

My apologies to Kitty (I've checked out your site) and others who take their FOH role seriously (I've worked with some pretty good engineers over the years), but I don't have much faith in our FOH crew. I often hear my guitar volume go WAY UP in the middle of a solo passage in a 16 channel feed from the 48 ch Allen & Heath board into my Aviom then into my IEM (what's up with that anyway?). I can't tell you how many times they are more engaged talking to friends and even AWOL from the board during a service. :banghead

I've seen the Bose Personal Amplification System Cylindrical Radiator loudspeaker system "demo'd" with John Standifer on fingerstyle acoustic, an electric bassist, and a horn player in a very challenged setting, and I was fairly impressed. I would love to see a full band use them for live performance. There's a review of an all acoustic date by Steve Miller at http://bose.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1506041054/m/160108276

However for the Steve Miller Band performance on an outdoor stage one of the Bose guys wrote "... the demo went well in that it exposed all the challenges any band faces making the transition to this new approach... "

In another thread http://bose.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1506041054/m/5261042441 the 'bari player with a 10 pc horn band (I can relate!) says "... Our 10 piece R&B horn band replaced a sound company with about $30k worth of high-end JBL speakers, higher end Soundcraft or Mackie boards and racks full of processing equipment. From my experience the Bose PAS reproduces sound more evenly and naturally than conventional PA's..."

A guitarist/vocalist in a blues band also says "... I'm a Newbie to the Bose (about a month) but our experience has been nothing but positive. Yes, there are things to work out (we have two systems which we split amongst a 5 piece blues band: guitar, harp, double keys, bass, kick and two vocals) but are results have been not only so much better, but worlds easier when compared to the effort I went through with my previous system. We have replaced the following with 2 L1's each with a single b1.
Two Yamaha 15'with horns and stands
two Fender 118s subs,
three JBL TR105 monitros,
two hot spot monitors,
Mackie 808M, Peavey CS800, Mackie1400i,
EQ's, compressor's limitor's to fill a 12 space rack,
York Keyboard AMP, Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

If this really works like it says, the musicans adjust their own levels, and in rooms with up to about 400 people, everybody in the room hears what the musicians hear \:D/ . Potentially no need for the FOH crew; a big WIN at my church =D> . If it works I think I could make the transition to a GNX4, GT6, GT8, Pod, or Tonelab for Worship 8-[ .

Anybody heard one of these systems with a full band in a live performance?

[seagullplayer]

Brian, I was lucky enough to take a Guitar Workshop with John Standifier a couple of years ago, he is a great guy. And a great guitar player to say the least. I would recommend his workshops to anyone interested in guitar. I would love to go again, Lord knows I need it.

[dudabrad]

[Stephen wrote]Is there anyplace in the Bible it talks about very quiet praise music? Loud and joyous are the adjectives I remember. Maybe that's just me[/quote]

d

[dudabrad]

Ignore that last post ... I hit the wrong button. Sorry

Is there anyplace in the Bible it talks about very quiet praise music? Loud and joyous are the adjectives I remember. Maybe that's just me

For me it's not about loud vs. quiet per se. I like both loud rockin' worship and quiet reflective stuff ... they both can be very effective and appropriate.

For me the sound volume issue is about:
(1) Good mix. If the words are drowned out, or any instrument overpowers the others, we are not worshipping with musical excellence. Plain and simple. Sometimes musicians have to set aside personal preferences for the sake of the overall sound. (BTW, ditto for sound techs!)

(2) Stewardship of our bodies. There is a point at which volume levels become actually dangerous to our hearing. I don't know that God is pleased when we damage our ears in order to worship. I don't know that this is good body stewardship. One guy at our church had a decibel meter, and our sound was surprisingly louder that I thought. I throught we were always too quiet, but his meter revealed that we were already approaching acceptable threshold levels for safe volumes. Goes to show how accustomed we have become to loudness. I'm still not prepared to say we should lower to volume to his "textbook recommended decibel level"; but I also don't think that God intended worship to be detrimental to our hearing.

Be loud, but be responsibily loud. Worship skillfully and wisely.

Something to think about.

[Brian]

...(1) Good mix... I don't know that God is pleased when we damage our ears in order to worship...Sorry if this is considered a hijack or if I seem like a Bose shill, but the principles of a silent stage apply here. If you read the posts on the links I posted above at Bose, it seems both these issues are addressed with the Cylindrical Radiator. If it works like Bose and their users say, both the listeners and the musicians are big winners.

I heard a single unit demo'd in a church foyer used as a demo area at a Christian musician's conference. The foyer was ~150' long by about 30' wide, with a staircase in the middle about 30 feet from the end where the PAS was set up, kind of isolated. Tile floor, all windows, no curtains. Hundreds of people milling around the other end - lots of ambient noise. Out to the stairway, and beyond on the sides to about 60 feet, the volume was fairly low, the sound was even, and I noticed no reflectivity off the staircase or walls. Beyond 50 feet, there was so much else going on that it was just ambience with everything else.

I was really disappointed that they didn't attempt to set it up in the sanctuary for a concert. If this really works, I'd lobby hard for it. I am really interested to see if anyone has heard this system in live performance, or has thoughts, especially Kitty.

[msaint]

I think it's probably more of an issue for drummers. V drums don't feel and react no where near real drums do. From what I heard, you have to go very high end to get electronic drums to sound good or authentic. I've been playing through my pedal direct to PA for years, it's been fine. For fun or with band, I do enjoy an amp cranked up as much as possible.

[Crunchyriff]

Have you tried the newest V-Drum Pro? They DO in fact feel, and react, like real drums do. Those mesh pads are totally touch-sensitive (press-rolls, etc are just like the real thing, you can even use brushes!) and the new cymbals are pretty impressive- along with the cymbal sounds... You can crash, choke, ride from the bell on out to the edge, and the timbre changes just like brass. They finally got the cymbal overtones and decay correct; listening to the cymbals over a large PA I could have swore I was hearing mic'd cymbals, not digital cymbals. I was blown away with the latest TD-20 package. Very believable.

Where the disconnect (or trade-off) is, is in the perceived physical and aural impact of a drum entirely thru a speaker, vs. feeling AND hearing an acoustic kit in the room. Of course, in concert, or when you listen to recorded music, this usually is a non-issue- as you generally get a purely mic'd & mixed sound. Wil they ever bridge the gap? time will tell. I'd say it's virtually impossible, but a 'hybrid' kit may be the answer, which, IMHO is no better than an acoustic kit with triggers.

YMMV!