How do guys deal with the modelers total lack of dynamics??

[Ascension]

I have tried severall of them and can't stand the things. A good part of my tecnique involves using the volume controll to change the crunch amount and clean up and open up the tones . I have YET to find a modeler that will do this much less do it well . While I have heard pretty good FOH tones with the Pods and such they are ALL FLAT in the dynamics .I just sold a nice Rocktron Chameleon because of this and bought a Carvin Tone Navigator . While the Tone Nav doesn't respond quite as well as a tube amp it isn't a modeler nor a digital unit but rather an analog true preamp and has a MUCH better dynamic feel . Enlighten me here on how you get past the one tone no nuances sterile nature of these things :dunno .

[leecow]

The Vox Tonelab does a fair job at 'listening' to guitar dynamic. Was messing around with a Recto model last night and was able to get it to go from a slightly greasy clean to scream using the guitar volume nob. Not that it's a compelling option but the glowing tube in kinda cool ;)

I have one on my desk for practice and recording. At this point I wouldn't consider taking a modeler into the wilds but that's only because I'm quite happy with my amps.

[kewlpack]

This is the single most aggravating thing about modeling technology to date... IMHO.

The lack of dynamics is hidden when you move into rock/metal levels of overdrive - at least somewhat. The distortion covers up a lot of the faults of these units.

My goals: I want a great clean tone (sparkly, full, blooming, but not harsh), a nice mild crunch (that reacts to volume pot well), a heavy rock crunch (for rhythm stuff), and then a fun crazy metal tone for going nuts.

I can't get the clean tone or low gain tones to sound authentic... they sorta plunk and don't have character.

And if you listen, a lot of these modelers' different models of amps sound almost identical... just a little EQ tweaking in the firmware or something.

I've had the GT8 for awhile now and it is certainly the most flexible unit I've found... however it is also the most annoying because it is sooooo complex - and BOSS does nothing to support the user base. I'm tired of spending so much time tweaking patches to find some usable tones.

I think the ToneLab SE probably has the most promise as far as preamp modeling quality at this point - especially for low gain stuff. The GT8 is the king of multi-effects and FX chain manipulation. POD XTL is the leader in high gain modeling (for sheer teeth shattering crunch).

I don't have a "wow" amp so I look to the modelers to give me some good options... I don't want to blow a ton of money on a single amp because I want more than one type of tone...

Argh - isn't there a better way?!?!

[SAguitar]

Of all my amps, I have lately discovered that my Boss GT-6 works best when coupled with my Tech21 Trademark 60. The T21 responds great to volume swells, which compensates for what the floorboard won't do well. Then the T21's second channel gets a decent Marshall roar going, and works great with the Boss' distortion, too. Plus the little unit has a boost button that comes in real handy when everything's on 10 and it isn't quite enough!

Some of my other amps available are a '68 Fender Deluxe Reverb, '82 Fender Concert II, a '71 Fender Bassman 50, and a Rivera 55-112R. Used with the Boss GT-6, the Tech21 seems to complement the Boss unit better than any of these great sounding tube amps. Of course, by themselves, the tube amps sound sweeter than the Tech21, but onstage, and plugged into my signal chain.

Plus, the Tech21 has that industry standard SansAmp DI built right into it. :cool:

[kewlpack]

I've been hearing all over the place that Active PA monitors is the best output device for these multi-modeler units.

The Tech21 stuff is supposed to rock too.

[SAguitar]

I heard so much about the Tech21 from some guys on another forum, that eventually I had to try it. One fellow I really come to respect is an established Blues musician in Chicago, and he can play through about any amp he wants. He has lots of Fenders and Riveras in his stable, but still appreciates the little T21. It really records great, and is so easy to truck around with you.

The little booger is the real thing, and I'm very picky about my Tone. For a while I wasn't totally stoked on it, but then I learned to dial it in, and it really came to life. I never thought I'd like an amp without tubes this much, but here we are! :cool:

On the other side of the equation, I know that Tommy Walker (if you're familiar with him) plays through his venerated Boss GT-5 direct into the P.A., and he gets impeccable Tone everywhere he goes. :cool:

[kewlpack]

I am really active at the bossgtcentral forums and there is a large movement toward using flat response active pa/monitor amps. I've not read a single "bad" post from anyone using the GT8 (or other modelers) in this way.

Think I might go looking today. ;)

[jazzrat]

It's older technology and not the most user friendly but I use a Yamaha DG-Stomp and found it to be the most responsive, dynamically of
units I've heard. To my old ears anyhoo.

[kewlpack]

FYI - I did dive in on the Keyboard amp - got me a Behringer KX1200. It is a 3way keyboard/pa amp.

It completely changed the way the modelers sound. Much more definition coming through. It reproduced a lot of things I wasn't hearing in the headphones nor through my amp(s) - like the reverb subtleties and more of the preamp characteristics. Quite a nice change actually.

Now, I also picked up a ToneLab SE (again) to use as my main preamp device. I get a lot more tubey dynamics out of it and the GT8 let's me integrate the TLSE seamlessly. I'm a happy camper.

Try a keyboard amp or active pa setup - it will change things in a good way. The KX1200 is a good choice for the money ($200 @ GC - but a little hagglin' got it down to $160 for me)...

YMMV.

[Crunchyriff]

How do guys deal with the modelers total lack of dynamics??

well, thus far I've managed to deal with it by avoiding modelers like the plague... :mrgreen:

[lockingnut]

I'm frustrated over the same thing but a bud found a pedal that works pretty well, Blackstone Overdrive Pedal. It has the touch sensitivity you're talking about and it's adjustable too. I'm getting one soon as I can.

[TheBigKevDogg]

How do guys deal with the modelers total lack of dynamics??

well, thus far I've managed to deal with it by avoiding modelers like the plague... :mrgreen:

:cool: amen!

[refin]

I am a tweed kinda guy,smokey tubes and all..but for my small (did I mention small) bedroom studio,I use the Johnson J-Stations (discontinued).For direct inject they work very well.
The main thing I've found with modelers(and all preamps) is you have got to take the time to tweak them, ESPECIALLY the compression and noise gate.The former will add hiss like a tire's valve stem being pushed,and the latter will clip off your dynamics.Most people don't take the time to tweak---they just take factory patches at face value and maybe make a few small adjustments.
Modelers/preamps should be appreciated for what they really do,not what they so often claim to do.....the factory patches,while sometimes okay,are somebody else's rendition and idea of a good sound.
I was most disappointed when I have tried to make my modelers emulate a '59 Bassman at full chat---but I have gotten some decent sounds in the small home studio setting.A chip will never replace the 3 elements necessary for great sound---tube preamp,tube poweramp,and great speakers. (okay,throw in some solid state stuff in there too :angel ).

[MrMike]

I think that we've come to expect too much from modeling technology. Vox, for example, would have shot themselves in the foot if their $500 modeling amp perfectly nailed the sound of a real AC-30. As Refin said, it's essential to get familiar with the equipment and get past the factory presets, which are generally over-effected and intended to demonstrate what the unit can do, so they're gonna show you everything all at once. I'm getting great results using my Vox Valvetronix head through a Marshall cabinet. I can get some very tube-like dynamics. Now, whether or not the models sound exactly like the original amps, I cannot really say. However, the sounds are perfectly useable, and that's all I need.

[LesStrat]

Um, I think you need to check out the newer versions, brother.

I liked the POD 2.0 for what it did, not what others claimed. I enjoyed its flexibility and simplicity, and it didn't break my back to haul it around. The xt was introduced, and I heard good reports, but it just didn't appeal to me. THEN they introduced the xt Live!

I didn't buy it because I thought it would be a vast improvement tonewise. I bought it because it simplified my setup.

THEN I played it! WOW! They really DID improve the amp modeling. I recently programmed an AC30 channel with a Tube Driver for the stomp effect...I find this thing to respond quite well to minor changes in my guitar/amp settings. The other big improvement was adding "amp knobs" to the unit. They respond very much like the knobs on a real amp.

I have a question, though: What did you play the POD through when you tried it?

If it was a guitar amp, then that explains everything. Guitar amps are designed to "color" your guitar tone. Playing a POD through a guitar amp is very similar to playing a guitar amp into a guitar amp. You WILL lose some tone, and your guitar won't be as responsive. (Of course, you can turn off the amp model and the speaker models and use it as effects unit).

PODs are best played through a PA. Next best is a keyboard or a bass amp. Something with full range speakers.

[kewlpack]

PODs are best played through a PA. Next best is a keyboard or a bass amp. Something with full range speakers.
Exactly right. I have the best results from my GT8 through the keyboard amp (full range and similar to powered PA speakers).

Much more dynamic.

[Swarty]

On the other side of the equation, I know that Tommy Walker (if you're familiar with him) plays through his venerated Boss GT-5 direct into the P.A., and he gets impeccable Tone everywhere he goes. :cool:

FWIW, I've always considered Tommy Walker to have great chops, but mediocre tone, sort of dull and lifeless. I've heard a lot of his recordings (our praise band does a lot of his songs) and also caught him live at his home church in LA. He has a recognizable sound, but it is always a sort of washed out midrangey chorusy thing. If he plugged that Tyler into a tuned up Super Reverb I can't help but think his tone would be a lot more lively.

[Brian]

FWIW, I've always considered Tommy Walker to have great chops, but mediocre tone, sort of dull and lifeless... He has a recognizable sound, but it is always a sort of washed out midrangey chorusy thing.
hmm... Lincoln Brewster did an electric guitar workshop at the 1st Christian Musician's Summit in Tacoma where he really promoted the Pod for worship, and it sounded ok through a PA by itself in the workshop. My son's Roland VG amp sounds good too, but after getting my Boogie MKII rejuvinated I hear a significant difference. That night in a concert LB sounded (not chorusy but) badly washed out alternately running through his Pod and a Spider with a direct to the board; this with a group of the NW's best FOH engineers running sound who had also given a clinic earlier in the day.
If he plugged that Tyler into a tuned up Super Reverb I can't help but think his tone would be a lot more lively. YEAH! That's what I'm talkin about! My favorite 60s amp. A great black gospel/funk/jazz guitarist friend of mine plays a bf. They sure got the name right!

[kewlpack]

FYI - it might be worth checking out the V-Amp Pro... remarkable little modeler (not as robust as the XTL or GT8) - and has much better dynamics IMHO than some of the big boys.

[indianrock]

I'm just now reading this post about modelers. I'm using both a Korg AX1500G and a Digitech RP50 with my Carvin AE185 -- This guitar has an acoustic pickup in the bridge which goes to one 1/4 inch output through compression/delay/chorus in the Korg to DI to PA. The humbuckers have their own 1/4 inch output which goes through the Digitech to a small miked Carvin Tube amp -- Vintage 16.

This thread makes me think I should consider turning off the noise gate and amp model ( usually compression ) on the chain that goes to the amp. From what's been said, I might get away with using delay and/or chorus in the digitech as long as the items that spoil tube amp tone are turned off.
Randy

[Old Believer]

The only modeler that I've ever liked was the Vox AD120VT. It had some really good tones in it. But, alas, it's long gone.

:hmm:

[hotraman]

Modelers have a big learning curve, if you really want to take advantage of the technology. For me, I'm enjoying my Tonelab SE way better than my stomp boxes of the past. Having an amp ( like an Atomic Reactor) has helped me, too. You hear the differences between Vox, Marshall, Fender, clearer.
Modeling, much like playing synths, is in the hands of the owner..
With our musicians on the worship bands, I really preach volume dynamics, and learning to avoid the "wall of sound".
The new POD X3 is really appealing to me, because of combining different amp models.

[MrMike]

I'm really excited about these:

http://www.line6.com/spidervalve/faq.html

With Reinhold Bogner involved, how bad could it be?