Are we ever our own

[scooteraz]

or is free will just an illusion? When Rick Warren says, "...it's not about you...", what does that mean, really?

Over on the thread about worship taking off on it's own, there is a minor exchange between JRC and me regarding the above quote and the more profound implications of it. My slightly teasing response in the original thread was that if it is not about you (me), then we need to stop preaching individual salvation and Jesus dying for your (my) sins. By that I was pointing to the idea that salvation is INTENSELY personal. And, thereby, ALL about the individual and their not rejecting Christ's call. However, I believe JRC took me to task for that idea, saying in effect (not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here, just what I think I read) that we were never our own.

If that is the case, then we never have free will would be my response to that, but maybe I misunderstood.

Anyway, it seems to me that sin (and dealing with sin) is all about us. And is very personal. It stops being about us after we become part of Christ's family, but that is our response to His love, not our lack of free will. So, I will posit my questions here:
1) If it is not about us, where does personal salvation fit in?
2) If it is not about us, where does free will fit in?
3) If free will and personal salvation are not issues we should broach, then what should be the focus of the church?

I just thought this was enough off the topic of the other thread to diserve its own.

[Strat-tastic]

I guess it depends on your understanding of 'it'. Having done the studies with my church a few years ago, I took 'it' to mean the whole of creation. In this case, it's not all about us, it's about Jesus. Everything was made for Him and by Him.

If you think that the world revolves around you (as many of us fallen, selfish humans tend to), then the opening line comes as a bit of a shock.

[ptrallan01]

The it of Worship is not about you. The it of Salvation is about you and Him.

Worship is an out growth of Salvation. I doubt there can be true Worship without Salvation, at least I didn't truly Worship until I was converted/saved.

In worship the it is about expressing love and adoration for the creator of all things, the sustainer of all things and the redeemer of all things. The focus is entirely on how good He is.

The it of Salvation is about the forgiveness by Him, the Reconcilliation by Him and the Restoration by Him of Us/me/I. This brings us into a relationship whereby our highest priority is His happiness.

Don't know if this helps.

[jrc]

While salvation may be intensely personal, the end purpose of it is not to 'save' the individual. It's to glorify the King, to fullfill the mandate of the Great Commission, and the dominion mandate given in Genesis, to have dominion over the Earth; to establish a model of the heavenly Kingdom in the physical world.

John 17 (bold type is mine):

1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He shoulda]" class="footnote">[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26758a)] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.continuing:

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,b]" class="footnote">[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-26767b)] that they may be one as We are.We have the freedom to choose if we will do what God has purposed for us. But, God being a God of principle, He has established consequences for our choices. Sometimes we see bad things that happen as God's judgment; more often that not, our choices simply violate the principle esatblished by Him, and we suffer the consequences.

We should evangelize and preach the Gospel as we were told to do, because it's our job. You can choose otherwise. We were told to do so, but not for each other. It's all for Him and the advancement of His Kingdom.

[Crunchyriff]

Psalms 24:1 and Colossians 1:17 are good points of reference.

EVERYTHING created, both seen and unseen, belong to the Lord. Period.

Even the things that we "give" God, first came from HIM to give. Kinda like a dad who gives his young children a few bucks to go get Daddy a Father's Day card. The very act of giving it back in love is what pleases Him, irregardless of the fact that it came from him in the first place.

[jrc]

1 Chronicles 29:11-12

Everything in heaven and earth is yours, and this is your Kingdom.

[stephen]

When were out on our own, not saved, we think its all us, and were all about us, but its not. Were in the hands of the enemy. We just dont know it.

When we are living our life, because He surrendered His in our stead, its not about us, and we understand this now.

Now, in either way here (in the enemies camp, or in Christ's camp), we can act on our own. We can do something good, that the enemy doesnt want us too, or we can sin which the Lord doesnt want us too. BUT, either way, our actions are represented of the one whose camp we are in, and it now is no longer for us, but for one of them; Jesus or satan.

[Micter]

Are we ever our own? If we are we are out of God's will. Scripture plainly tells us that we were bought with a price so we cannot do the things that we wish.

Do we act like we are our own? Daily!

[mattd]

Micter, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on a minor point. We are never our own, we are always in slavery to something.
We can choose to make ourselves slaves to Christ by the irresistible grace of God (I come from a more reformed theology and I don't think that we have as much choice as we think we do, but that's not what's being argued here). When we choose Christ as our master then there is simply no other way to live than under his yoke and we joyfully obey his commandments and do his bidding, under his power.
However, should we choose to reject Christ (or, should God not show his grace to us) than we simply fall into slavery to something else trying to fill that hole that God created in us but doesn't fill with himself. We can broadly say that we are in slavery to sin, but to be specific and hopefully make more sense then let's say that we reject Christ and choose to make money our master. Then our lives are ruled by possession of material things that we want to buy with that money, maybe we make a bunch of investments with that money, maybe we go into slavery to our job to make that money to worship. Maybe credit card debt (or other debt) can fall under this. The point is, if any of these things are what our chief goal is in life, then we have fallen under the slavery of that object and have voluntarily made it our master. Everybody needs something to live for and will go into slavery to it to have that thing.

A note: I'm not saying that if you have any of those things I mentioned (a job, debt, investments) then you are automatically enslaved by it. I have all those things that I mentioned. But it's about what your chief goal is in life. For a Christian it must be Jesus. If Jesus is not the only Lord and master of your life then you are by definition not a Christian.

[Strat-tastic]

If Jesus is not the only Lord and master of your life then you are by definition not a Christian.

Would you say then it's impossible for a Christian to have addictions?

[mattd]

Would you say then it's impossible for a Christian to have addictions?

It's not impossible. It depends on how we treat said addiction, and what kind of addiction it is. If you have an addiction and are a Christian then something needs to go. If you have no desire to get rid of that addiction and depend on Christ for everything, then I would not call that person a Christian. I do understand that sometimes we come to Christ with an addiction and have to work to get rid of it. Things like drugs and alcohol don't just go away overnight, they take time. But like I said before, it all depends on how we treat it; if we want it gone and have Christ be our addiction, or if we'd rather hold to that addiction because it's comfortable.

[Micter]

Micter, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on a minor point. We are never our own, we are always in slavery to something.
We can choose to make ourselves slaves to Christ by the irresistible grace of God (I come from a more reformed theology and I don't think that we have as much choice as we think we do, but that's not what's being argued here). When we choose Christ as our master then there is simply no other way to live than under his yoke and we joyfully obey his commandments and do his bidding, under his power.
However, should we choose to reject Christ (or, should God not show his grace to us) than we simply fall into slavery to something else trying to fill that hole that God created in us but doesn't fill with himself. We can broadly say that we are in slavery to sin, but to be specific and hopefully make more sense then let's say that we reject Christ and choose to make money our master. Then our lives are ruled by possession of material things that we want to buy with that money, maybe we make a bunch of investments with that money, maybe we go into slavery to our job to make that money to worship. Maybe credit card debt (or other debt) can fall under this. The point is, if any of these things are what our chief goal is in life, then we have fallen under the slavery of that object and have voluntarily made it our master. Everybody needs something to live for and will go into slavery to it to have that thing.

A note: I'm not saying that if you have any of those things I mentioned (a job, debt, investments) then you are automatically enslaved by it. I have all those things that I mentioned. But it's about what your chief goal is in life. For a Christian it must be Jesus. If Jesus is not the only Lord and master of your life then you are by definition not a Christian.

We have a free will. Our will can cause us to be on bondage to sin but our will puts us there nonetheless, We are talking semantics at this point.

[LesStrat]

Great discussion!

I have used the same quote in reference to worship. All too often someone (or even me) on the worship team is upset because something is not going their way. Playing an instrument for worship cannot be a selfish act AND still be worship. It must, by definition, be an act of surrender.