spiritual authority

[Kitty]

[Moderator note: This thread originated in another topic:http://gpawf4christ.com/forums/showthread.php?p=60024) and has been moved to its own thread.]

He is my spiritual leader and I am submitted to his spiritual authority.
I believed this same thing for the first 25 years or so of my Christian life. That's what I had always been taught. But when I actually went specifically looking for it in the Bible, I finally realized that it isn't there. Not to start a big huge discussion or anything, but there is no place in the New Testament where one believer is instructed to exercise spiritual authority over another believer.

[Crunchyriff]

I believed this same thing for the first 25 years or so of my Christian life. That's what I had always been taught. But when I actually went specifically looking for it in the Bible, I finally realized that it isn't there. Not to start a big huge discussion or anything, but there is no place in the New Testament where one believer is instructed to exercise spiritual authority over another believer.

BINGO. We are to be submitted, one to another. That's why elders are so important. Unfortunately, some pastors do not listen to the elders around them; and it's all about THEIR plans and THEIR thing. Not all, but many. A.W. Tozer spoke about this problem of the human condition in church leadership right before he died.
The Lord is about to turn that upside down.
Pastor's are supposed to lead by Jesus' example. (ie_ washing feet.) Jesus led by example: meekness, love & gentleness. Not by an authoritarian, ego-based power trip. Look how he handled Judas at his betrayal, and how he handled Peter after Peter denied Jesus 3 times.
God forbid they should stoop to this lowly position.

[Rubsoul]

Crunchyriff wrote: "Unfortunately, some pastors do not listen to the elders around them; and it's all about THEIR plans and THEIR thing."

Kitty wrote: "but there is no place in the New Testament where one believer is instructed to exercise spiritual authority over another believer."

Good points. :up: I don't like a one way of doing thing either. The "I must have it this way" is not generally the best way in making decisions. I don't think "narrow mindliness" is a Godly way of doing things.

Yes, the Pastor is the spiritual leader, but.... sometimes it may be better to take another path to get to your destination.

Just my :2cents:

[LesStrat]

Submission IS taught throughout the New Testament, Kitty. However, if we are truly submitted one to another and to leaders, it is a symbiotic spiritual relationship. (Romans 13; Hebrews 13:17).

I am not referring to blind submission anymore than I believe that I have blind faith.

The epistles tell us to test the spirits and test the fruits. I follow my pastor inasmuch as he follows Christ. If he goes off on some tangent that cannot be supported by Scripture (Hebrews 13:9), then our relationship will end if he does not listen to correction.

As an aside, this is akin to the passage in Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 in which wives are commanded to submit to their husbands. Many in the world try to use this to indict the church, but it is due to an incomplete understanding of the passages. If the husbands do THEIR part (with greater requirements), then wives have no problem submitting. If my pastor is leading as Christ would have him lead, then I have no problem submitting to his authority. FWIW, our pastor is very much NOT a control freak. He WILL call a member into his office if there is evidence of obvious, ongoing sin (e.g., the adulterous former members of my band).

My comment about submission had less to do with the OP than with the comments that "what I do when I leave church is none of their business." I cannot disagree more with that sentiment. The church IS called to correct believers. Jesus gave explicit directions as to how it should be done. Accountability IS a Godly principle.

Again, I believe that we are more in agreement than it first appeared. For example, I had a neighbor when I was younger that sold her TV when a new pastor came to her church, because he believed watching TV was a sin. He left and a new pastor arrived who owned a TV. Guess what the neighbor did?

Even as an adolescent I knew that there were significant doctrinal issues at hand.

[stephen]

Yes, the Pastor is the spiritual leader, ...............

He is God's "anointed". I would never challenge him for his position, and I would never back anyone in challenging him for his position. I cannot see inside a man, so I take people at their word. He said he was called by God, so I believe him. But if he starts telling me to go down paths that are just flat out wrong, I will leave from being in his presence. Its up to God to get him out.

Now, if I was confronted by the elders of the church, and questioned, thats a different story: I'm not seeking it out, and running around planting rumors, and they are acting as the elders of the body of believers in question.

Its not my job to hire or fire a pastor. Its my job to listen to what he is teaching, accept the truth in it, and reject that fallacies.

[Kitty]

Submission IS taught throughout the New Testament, Kitty.
Oh, absolutely! Submission one to another is taught throughout, as you say.

However, there is no Biblical teaching that any one believer has spiritual authority over any other believer.

[Micter]

Oh, absolutely! Submission one to another is taught throughout, as you say.

However, there is no Biblical teaching that any one believer has spiritual authority over any other believer.

WRONG! :smart:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This obviously shows that there are some that are over others and are accountable to God for the people under their authority.

lol

[Kitty]

You must have missed the word "spiritual" in my previous post.

[Micter]

You must have missed the word "spiritual" in my previous post.

The fact that someone is accountable to God for watching for someone else's soul is "spiritual" authority and we are to submit to it according to scripture. :cross:

[davesg]

What about 1 Thess. 5:12And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; 13And to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

Doesn't this exhibit that there are people that we should submit to "in the Lord"????

[Kitty]

Doesn't this exhibit that there are people that we should submit to "in the Lord"?
Again, submission is one thing... and we are ALL told to submit to one another in the Lord, among other admonishments on how we regard and treat one another in Christ-likeness.

Spiritual authority is another thing altogether.

Micter: I politely disagree with your logic. Hebrews 13:17 does not confer spiritual authority onto anyone, especially if you consider other translations than the New King James. People only read it that way because it's what they already believe and have always been taught. I did the same thing for more than 25 years.

[davesg]

Kitty, please respond to this section of the Thess. scripture.
"to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;"

[Kitty]

First, let me ask you Dave, is that the only verse you have to support the theory that certain believers are instructed to exercise spiritual authority over other believers? Because for one thing, I am not convinced that's what it really means, and for another, I can cite verses that appear to say just the opposite. How should we reconcile what appear to be conflicting verses in the Word of God? We could have a shootout, and he who is able to pull out the most verses wins, but somehow that just doesn't seem to resonate with what the rest of the New Testament teaches about dealing with one another in love and humility.

I find it interesting that my comment that the Bible never instructs one believer to exercise spiritual authority over another believer is only met with verses being pulled out to prove me "WRONG!" (as Micter so eloquently phrased it in humility and love and a true desire to mentor me onto the right path), rather than met with a personal investigation of the topic with an honest attempt to read without the filter of our modern religious institutional hierarchy structure. (Sorry for that really long sentence.)

Of course, doing so would take time, and if anyone is investigating, they wouldn't have had time to respond yet, so I don't want to assume that no one is giving that a try before speaking up.

[Micter]

Again, submission is one thing... and we are ALL told to submit to one another in the Lord, among other admonishments on how we regard and treat one another in Christ-likeness.

Spiritual authority is another thing altogether.

Micter: I politely disagree with your logic. Hebrews 13:17 does not confer spiritual authority onto anyone, especially if you consider other translations than the New King James. People only read it that way because it's what they already believe and have always been taught. I did the same thing for more than 25 years.

Well, I must say that you are entitled to believe whatever you wish. BUT every translation that I have researched says the same thing. Here are a few.

NIV

17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

NASB

17(AH)Obey your leaders and submit to them, for (AI)they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

ESV

17Obey(AD) your leaders and submit to them,(AE) for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to(AF) give an account.(AG) Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

ASV

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.

21st Century KJV

17Obey those who have the rule over you and submit yourselves, for they keep watch over your souls as ones who must give an account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief, for that is unprofitable for you.

Darby translation

17Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for *they* watch over your souls as those that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not groaning, for this [would be] unprofitable for you.

They all pretty much say the same thing. There are people of "SPIRITUAL" authority that we are supposed to be submitted to. Believe it, don't believe it, it's up to you.

[Kitty]

Again, I disagree. I do obey people who are in authority over me... police officers, judges, flight attendants, supervisors at work, etc. But none of those people have spiritual authority over me. You see it in that verse because that's what you already believe. I don't see it because, after lengthy investigation, what I had always believed prior to that was changed.

This verse is talking about "those who rule over you." And yet most of the New Testament specifically says we as members of the body of Christ do NOT rule over one another. There is a disconnect there, don't you think?

[Micter]

Again, I disagree. I do obey people who are in authority over me... police officers, judges, flight attendants, supervisors at work, etc. But none of those people have spiritual authority over me. You see it in that verse because that's what you already believe. I don't see it because, after lengthy investigation, what I had always believed prior to that was changed.

Police officers, flight attendants, Judges, etc don't have to give account for your soul. The authority denoted in Heb 13 is that of a spiritual nature. It has nothing to do with worldly authority at all. You see it the way you want, it doesn't affect me at all. You are being a bit presumptuous though, to say that I see it the way I do because it's already what I believe. You really have no clue as to why I believe what I believe in this case. :bible:

[davesg]

Actually Kitty, this was not meant to be an attack. I really wanted to know your feeling aboout that section of scripture. As for the original comment about people exercising Spiritual Authority, the Bible is full of examples of that concept. From Moses, and Aaron, Joshua, through the Judges and Kings of Israel, the Prophets and the Apostles. The concept is not some hidden idea. Ultimately our Spiritual Authority is God, but through the ages he has chosen people to do his will in this area. Ephesians 4: tells us that he gave some to train us up to maturity, if we are not to accept the authority of a teacher, how are we to learn? We must be wise enough to carefully pick those that we submit to. There are wolves among the sheep, but we should not just decide that there are no shepherds at all to accept Spiritual leadership from.

[Kitty]

Thanks Dave, I do appreciate your spirit in this.

we should not just decide that there are no shepherds at all to accept Spiritual leadership from.
I believe you are assuming that this is what I mean. But of course there are shepherds and leadership! There are, in fact, many many more shepherds and leaders in any local Body than our current system of hierarchy allows us to perceive.

The New Testament never condones an absence of leadership or order. But it also never teaches the idea that one man is "over" a body of believers in the sense of spiritual authority.

I will come back to answer your question later, but right now I must go lead worship, where the people will voluntarily submit to my leadership, but who are in no respect under my spiritual authority. :)

[LesStrat]

Somehow this seems to be a debate over semantics.

It is very difficult to lead without authority, whether delegated or submitted. Clearly church leaders are responsible for the flock.

As I said previously, I do not refer to blind submission. I speak of Godly submission to Godly authority in a Godly relationship.

As with most things in God's kingdom, there is a seeming paradox in submission. Submission is not about being bound; rather it is about FREEDOM. I have FREEDOM in my ministry when I am under the covering of my pastor. If I rebel against his authority, I defy God and fall into BONDAGE.

Please understand that the underlying assumption in my discussion is that my pastor IS Godly, holy, and righteous. When he deviates from those principles, then I need to seek another pastor.

Aside: Submission does not occur during agreement.

[stephen]

Police officers, flight attendants, Judges, etc don't have to give account for your soul. The authority denoted in Heb 13 is that of a spiritual nature. It has nothing to do with worldly authority at all. You see it the way you want, it doesn't affect me at all. You are being a bit presumptuous though, to say that I see it the way I do because it's already what I believe. You really have no clue as to why I believe what I believe in this case. :bible:

Mic, I gotta disagree with you on this: The greek structure in this verse "for those that have rule over you", or "those that have authority over you", is not a spiritual authority. It is almost always used as a definition of those in a rulers position, such as a governor or judge. He is saying, "Be a good citizen. Obey the laws, and the rulers that administer those laws, because they will be held accountable as to whether they are a good ruler/judge or a bad one. Remember, even the world has to face the judgment seat of Christ, so they will be held accountable.

Remember, we are told to live peaceably with those that have rule (authority) over us. So if the rulers of the country are not making an affront to our faith, we can live peaceably with them.

Also, IF we are to always submit to someone that has "spiritual authority" over us, we never would have seen in scripture, Paul getting in Peter's face, and flat out leveling a charge on him of, "You are wrong!" He would have been cast out, and thats the last we would have heard from him.

You know, one thing I have always said, "I'm glad I'm not called to be a pastor." I am totally convinced, 100%, if you were not called by God to be a pastor, you are either:

1) Suffer from delusions of grandeur.
2) Are a con-man, and seeking to fleece "the flock".
3) You enjoy punishment, or are into S&M

A pastor is first and foremost, a servant. A pastor is usually (or used to be) the first one to get to church, and the last one to leave. He cant take the day off, like others in "lesser" ministry positions do. He has to be ready to handle a dozen calls a night at 1, 2 or 3 am, and be loving, kind and patient, no matter how ridiculous or stupid that brother or sister is coming off. And everyone that comes to the pastor for "financing", and cant understand why the church doesnt have the money on hand for:

a) the ministry they want to get started.
b) or the urgent financial help they need.

And then the pastor has to explain why, and still, he has to be loving, kind and patient towards brother or sister "pissed off at you".

No, it is plain to me going by the Greek language, this is not a "spiritual authority", this is just an explanation as to how we should conduct ourselves with our rulers/judges, etc, that sit in authority around us.

And finally, think about this:

We were not a "separate" sect of the Jews (or called Christian) until years after Christ ascended to heaven, so all the Apostles would have been defying this "rule", by not obeying the spiritual leaders in the synagogue's, when they told them to be quiet.

[Kitty]

(I hope no one minds, but I moved this conversation from the thread where it started in case someone still wanted to comment on Peter's original topic but was uninterested in this discussion. ~ Kitty)

[Kitty]

Somehow this seems to be a debate over semantics.
I understand brother, how this can seem like semantics. But it isn't.

Let me clarify that I am in no way whatsoever saying that there is no need for us to submit to anyone. The idea of believers submitting to one another is all over the New Testament teachings to the church.

To go back to what I originally put forth, the New Testament never instructs one believer to exercise spiritual authority over another believer, but rather instructs us all to submit. And you make a very good point in saying that submission does not occur when there is agreement.

The reason the distinction is important (and not just a case of semantics) is because if one does not discern the difference, then one is set up for a certain type of spiritual abuse because of the belief that it is actually Biblical.

Please understand that I am NOT saying that all leaders want to spiritually abuse people. Not even close! But also understand that as someone who has been set free from that particular type of spiritual abuse, I am now quite able to recognize even the seeds of it, and I cannot let the comment stand that I am to submit to the spiritual authority of a Pastor over me, for there is no such thing. I am to submit to a brother or sister in my fellowship with whom I am having a disagreement out of love and a desire to get along in the Body in peace -- regardless of whether or not he or she happens to be a leader. And they are also taught to do the same regarding me. Neither of us are ever taught to take authority over the other.

(I am also not saying that there is no such thing as spiritual authority -- just not of one believer over another.)

Now, if I am simply being hyper-sensitive to this topic, then I appeal to you all for grace. But as one who has the spiritual gift of pastoring, I am protective of those in the Body who may be vulnerable to abuse (not saying that you are), and I am constrained at times to speak up against what I have come to understand as erroneous teaching. I followed this teaching my whole life until I really tried to put the filter aside and dig into a study of it for myself rather than just accepting it because it's what came from the pulpit.

Kitty

[Kitty]

Dave, you asked about my feelings on 1 Thess. 5:12-13:
"Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other."

I think you may be specifically referring to the part about "over you in the Lord." We could go into the original Greek meaning and translation of the word which is translated as "over," but I don't think that's really what you're asking for. I think you simply want to know how I reconcile this passage with my assertion that no believer is to exercise spiritual authority over another believer.

But we do have to consider the original language at least a little bit in an attempt to understand what was intended.

This same word is used in other places, mostly in Timothy when talking about acceptable characteristics of deacons and elders -- and in those instances it unfortunately gets translated as "rule." If a man cannot "rule" over his own house, how can he "take care of" the church of God? But Titus uses the same word when talking about maintaining good works. So the application of it meaning to somehow rule over another person does not work there.

The phrase is more accurately translated as "protect" or "care for," not rule over.

We simply cannot take this verse to mean that some of us are set up "over" others, because Jesus specifically forbids that kind of thinking (Mark 10:42-45). Incidentally, He also forbids the use of "Titles" in the Body to denote office or position, which goes hand in hand with the misunderstanding of spiritual authority over one another (Matthew 23:8-10).

And so much of the New Testament teaches us that we do NOT rule over each other, I just cannot take the few verses to which people point in order to justify it to really mean that. It just doesn't line up with the rest of it.

Again, all this is NOT to say that there is no leadership. Of course there is leadership, and this verse in particular is admonishing us all to recognize how hard leaders work in caring for the Body, to pay attention to their warnings and exhortations, and to value them highly with love.

But there is nothing in there about submitting to their spiritual authority over us.

Kitty

[Strat-tastic]

Kitty, how would you define spiritual authority? Can you give an example?

[Micter]

Mic, I gotta disagree with you on this: The greek structure in this verse "for those that have rule over you", or "those that have authority over you", is not a spiritual authority. It is almost always used as a definition of those in a rulers position, such as a governor or judge. He is saying, "Be a good citizen. Obey the laws, and the rulers that administer those laws, because they will be held accountable as to whether they are a good ruler/judge or a bad one. Remember, even the world has to face the judgment seat of Christ, so they will be held accountable.

Remember, we are told to live peaceably with those that have rule (authority) over us. So if the rulers of the country are not making an affront to our faith, we can live peaceably with them.

Also, IF we are to always submit to someone that has "spiritual authority" over us, we never would have seen in scripture, Paul getting in Peter's face, and flat out leveling a charge on him of, "You are wrong!" He would have been cast out, and thats the last we would have heard from him.

You know, one thing I have always said, "I'm glad I'm not called to be a pastor." I am totally convinced, 100%, if you were not called by God to be a pastor, you are either:

1) Suffer from delusions of grandeur.
2) Are a con-man, and seeking to fleece "the flock".
3) You enjoy punishment, or are into S&M

A pastor is first and foremost, a servant. A pastor is usually (or used to be) the first one to get to church, and the last one to leave. He cant take the day off, like others in "lesser" ministry positions do. He has to be ready to handle a dozen calls a night at 1, 2 or 3 am, and be loving, kind and patient, no matter how ridiculous or stupid that brother or sister is coming off. And everyone that comes to the pastor for "financing", and cant understand why the church doesnt have the money on hand for:

a) the ministry they want to get started.
b) or the urgent financial help they need.

And then the pastor has to explain why, and still, he has to be loving, kind and patient towards brother or sister "pissed off at you".

No, it is plain to me going by the Greek language, this is not a "spiritual authority", this is just an explanation as to how we should conduct ourselves with our rulers/judges, etc, that sit in authority around us.

And finally, think about this:

We were not a "separate" sect of the Jews (or called Christian) until years after Christ ascended to heaven, so all the Apostles would have been defying this "rule", by not obeying the spiritual leaders in the synagogue's, when they told them to be quiet.

The Greek word hēgeomai denotes authority of many types. The fact that the authority God's word portrays in Heb. 13 has to do with "Watch for your souls" turns a corner towards spiritual leadership. There is no one other than a spiritual overseer that would be accountable to God for my soul.

Now, I am going to tell a story of when I decided to become a part of the church I am currently attending. I invited the Pastor to lunch at his favorite sushi bar. As we are eating lunch I told him that I was interested in getting involved in the church. I then told him the only way I will is if he understands the fact that submission goes both ways. If he is not able to listen to me when I see something wrong or that needs to change I will not submit unto him as a Pastor. Now, he is the spiritual head of that local body as Christ is the head of the church in it's entirety. He does have the authority given by God to make decisions that affect me. He also has to give account to God for those decisions. If I feel the man is out of line (which I actually do right now but that's a different thread) I have to go to him and try my best in the spirit of humility to set the record straight. I am not the type of person that will blindly follow any man but anyone in a position over me has authority given by God himself. I must respect that authority.

[LesStrat]

I have to agree with Micter here.

I'll keep saying it, because I'm not sure it has been received: I am NOT referring to "blind" submission.

The covering of the leaders is discussed throughout Scripture, as was mentioned previously. The apostles did not submit to the Pharisees because they were not Godly leaders. This is akin to the command to submit to governing authority; when government violates God's laws, we are SUPPOSED to defy governmental authority.

I serve in a church with a Godly leader. He is in no way a dictator. There is no "local" doctrine, only BIBLICAL doctrine. I have never heard our pastor say, "You must obey me because I am your spiritual leader." Instead, he leads by example. In fact, he has said on more than one occasion, "You don't need me to pray for you. You need Jesus." That said, he enjoys praying for others and in general. His point is simply that his hands hold no "magic". Yes, we do have a prayer team and give opportunities for people to receive prayer for their needs. Yes, the pastor prays for others.

In my example previously about my band, it was not the pastor who insisted on his approval of my minister, but ME. I want him to shepherd me in my walk. I seek his guidance. I have had the opportunity to offer HIM guidance. It is a relationship of mutual trust, respect, and submission. Yet he remains the pastor.

[stephen]

Now, I am going to tell a story of when I decided to become a part of the church I am currently attending. I invited the Pastor to lunch at his favorite sushi bar. As we are eating lunch I told him that I was interested in getting involved in the church. I then told him the only way I will is if he understands the fact that submission goes both ways. If he is not able to listen to me when I see something wrong or that needs to change I will not submit unto him as a Pastor. Now, he is the spiritual head of that local body as Christ is the head of the church in it's entirety. He does have the authority given by God to make decisions that affect me. He also has to give account to God for those decisions. If I feel the man is out of line (which I actually do right now but that's a different thread) I have to go to him and try my best in the spirit of humility to set the record straight. I am not the type of person that will blindly follow any man but anyone in a position over me has authority given by God himself. I must respect that authority.

Your mixing two completely different things here:

1) Spiritual Authority
2) Discipleship

If I go to a church, and I'm setting in the services, I'm studying what is being taught, and I'm engaging in friendship and bonds of family, and the pastor comes over too me and says, "As the spiritual head of this body, I have authority over you, so therefore I'm sending you to Afghanistan to be in the mission field." I'd first ask him what he is smoking, and then tell him, he needs to be put in check.

He does not have the authority over me: Only One Man has authority over me, Jesus, PERIOD! I would tell that pastor to take a long walk on a short pier, and would not feel bad or guilty about it at all.

Peithō, "obey" is the Greek word for getting along: A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty)

The combination of peithō with hēgeomai, structurally does not infer a spiritual authority, and imho, that would be a stretch.

Instead of peithō , you would want hupakouō "obey": to hear under [as a subordinate], that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey. This is the "obey" you would want to convey spiritual authority in this context.

Now, Mic went to the pastor, and in a nutshell, became a disciple under the pastor. He asked him to mentor/disciple him. He ASKED to be IN THE POSITION, ACCEPTED the need to be a bondservant in Christ, and subjected himself to the pastors mentorship/discipleship. So mic took on hupakouō under his pastor/mentor.

Again, I'm going to point out, the New Testament demonstrated the new church getting along with secular authorities way more, than they did the Jews, which again, they where Jews, the Christian Sect of the Jews, and they fought with them, and defied them time and time again. So who's authority where they obeying, and who's werent they?

I really believe that the root of the disagreement in this discussion, is about spiritual authority versus discipleship.

[Micter]

Your mixing two completely different things here:

1) Spiritual Authority
2) Discipleship

If I go to a church, and I'm setting in the services, I'm studying what is being taught, and I'm engaging in friendship and bonds of family, and the pastor comes over too me and says, "As the spiritual head of this body, I have authority over you, so therefore I'm sending you to Afghanistan to be in the mission field." I'd first ask him what he is smoking, and then tell him, he needs to be put in check.

He does not have the authority over me: Only One Man has authority over me, Jesus, PERIOD! I would tell that pastor to take a long walk on a short pier, and would not feel bad or guilty about it at all.

Peithō, "obey" is the Greek word for getting along: A primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty)

The combination of peithō with hēgeomai, structurally does not infer a spiritual authority, and imho, that would be a stretch.

Instead of peithō , you would want hupakouō "obey": to hear under [as a subordinate], that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey. This is the "obey" you would want to convey spiritual authority in this context.

Now, Mic went to the pastor, and in a nutshell, became a disciple under the pastor. He asked him to mentor/disciple him. He ASKED to be IN THE POSITION, ACCEPTED the need to be a bondservant in Christ, and subjected himself to the pastors mentorship/discipleship. So mic took on hupakouō under his pastor/mentor.

Again, I'm going to point out, the New Testament demonstrated the new church getting along with secular authorities way more, than they did the Jews, which again, they where Jews, the Christian Sect of the Jews, and they fought with them, and defied them time and time again. So who's authority where they obeying, and who's werent they?

I really believe that the root of the disagreement in this discussion, is about spiritual authority versus discipleship.

No dude you totally missed the point. I was trying to make. I didn't agree to be his disciple. I agreed to submit unto the authority God gave him over that church. There is a difference, I will agree.

Explain to me why in the part Hebrews 13:17 that says "for they watch for your souls and that must give account"

Here's the text in KJV in case you forgot.
17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Secondly, I never asked to be discipled by the Pastor and he would never even try. He knows who I am and that being discipled isn't where I am at in my walk.

Quit being rebellious! :yeah:

[refin]

I have mentioned this in the past,but I went through the "Discipleship Movement" that was permeating some non-denom churches back in the late '70s/early '80s.It was supposed to return proper spiritual oversight to the church,but men in their lust for power turned it into bondage and running people's lives.It was control,where you had leaders telling you what to do,how to do it,ect.Here are some highlights:
(1) You couldn't go out of town without talking to your elder first
(2) You needed permission to date someone........not counsel.........PERMISSION!
(3) You were discouraged from visiting other churches

In my case,I actually found myself asking my pastor if I could go jam with a youth pastor friend and some mutual friends for a lock-in.He (pastor) said he couldn't endorse it.When I told this to my youth pastor friend,I could see a worried look in his eyes and on his face.He probably wondered why I even asked my pastor about it,when it was going to be some friends getting together on MY time on a weekend.
It was a time of people poking through your record collection/refrigerator,turning personal preference into doctrine,and basically having to turn over all plans to the leadership of the church to "counsel" you on.The pastor was a czar.He later recanted,but alot of damage was done.
I blame myself for going through all that---but you can understand how the word "authority" stirs up bad memories for me.

[Micter]

I have mentioned this in the past,but I went through the "Discipleship Movement" that was permeating some non-denom churches back in the late '70s/early '80s.It was supposed to return proper spiritual oversight to the church,but men in their lust for power turned it into bondage and running people's lives.It was control,where you had leaders telling you what to do,how to do it,ect.Here are some highlights:
(1) You couldn't go out of town without talking to your elder first
(2) You needed permission to date someone........not counsel.........PERMISSION!
(3) You were discouraged from visiting other churches

In my case,I actually found myself asking my pastor if I could go jam with a youth pastor friend and some mutual friends for a lock-in.He (pastor) said he couldn't endorse it.When I told this to my youth pastor friend,I could see a worried look in his eyes and on his face.He probably wondered why I even asked my pastor about it,when it was going to be some friends getting together on MY time on a weekend.
It was a time of people poking through your record collection/refrigerator,turning personal preference into doctrine,and basically having to turn over all plans to the leadership of the church to "counsel" you on.The pastor was a czar.He later recanted,but alot of damage was done.
I blame myself for going through all that---but you can understand how the word "authority" stirs up bad memories for me.

Ya, most people that have been hurt in churches have a hard time with anyone in "authority" spiritually speaking. The thing is that Pastor is held responsible for the domineering acts of unrighteousness. It's good that he got it right though.

I went through the same thing with the "I'm in charge so you have to do what I say" doctrine. That isn't spiritual authority the way I see it. That is abusing the position IMO.

[LesStrat]

That isn't spiritual authority the way I see it. That is abusing the position IMO.

Werd.

[Kitty]

The covering of the leaders is discussed throughout Scripture
Aside from head coverings (which no one really understands sufficiently) I am not aware of any teaching in the New Testament of any "covering" aside from Christ.

When you say covering, what is it that you really mean?

[Kitty]

Kitty, how would you define spiritual authority? Can you give an example?
Hi Strat... I appreciate your question. Let's make sure we're talking about the same thing.

I have to confess that I haven't done an extended study on what the Bible means by spiritual authority, so what follows is open to input from others.

Spiritual authority has many facets, like "prayer" or "worship." Each of those isn't just one simple thing that you can put into a box, yet you could use simple explanations for them, such as "talking with God" or "praising God." Leaves a lot to be desired though, once you experience different depths of those things.

Anyway, one facet of spiritual authority is the authority of Jesus Christ which he has given to us to use in his name over powers, principalities, demons, disease, etc. Authority over the enemy. It must be obeyed, because it is not our authority; it is Jesus' authority in us. And all authority in heaven and on earth was given to him. It is very important that this authority, as well as all spiritual gifts, be exercised at the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Another facet is the spiritual authority to teach, preach, pray for others... I guess we could place all of that and more under a heading of the authority to minister. For example, when people were telling Timothy that he couldn't preach because he was too inexperienced, Paul told Timothy he most certainly DID have authority from God to preach. We have that same spiritual authority from God, to be exercised at the direction of the Holy Spirit.

By the way, the spiritual authority to minister is given by the Holy Spirit, and not conferred onto a believer by man, although it can be confirmed and affirmed by other believers.

However, there is no spiritual authority of one believer over another, no matter what one may wish to read into the phrase "watch over your souls."

Furthermore, any "authority" which may be ignored whenever it is "wrong" or "ungodly" is no authority at all. I would say that those are actually covenant relationships, not relationships of spiritual authority/submission.

Kitty

[ptrallan01]

I have a responsibility to report to God on the members of our church and their activities on the day of judgment. The scripture in Hebrews speaks to my congregation telling them that they must behave properly in the church and work for its good under the direction of the ministers and deacons who He has anointed as leaders.

We have the responsibility for teaching, enabling and empowering them for the ministries that God has called them to do. Around this we may require training, diligence and continued specific activity. We have the responsibility for promoting proper behavior and in bringing improper behavior to one's attention when required. This is true of the congregation in general and each other in particular.

Does this mean that I can tell you what to do in your own home, well no. I can't make you not put a Christmas Tree or not paint Easter Eggs or not go Trick or Treating. I do have a responsibility to discuss issues with you that may not or definitely are not (i.e. adultery, drug abuse, wife beating) bringing glory to God. If you refuse to correct your activity I may need to bring it to the leadership group and have them discuss it with you. If you will not repent of specific known sin we have a responsibility to remove you from the fellowship until you are repentant. This is spelled out in a number of places in the NT.

I, as the "Sr. Pastor" have a responsibility to maintain a healthy church made up of people in various degrees of spiritual health. What I will ask out of an usher is completely different than what I will ask of a minister in training. I have a responsibility to require certain skills and behaviors for the maintenance of the church in decency and in order.

None of this gives me the right to, "Lead and feed, while you follow and swallow" as is often quoted locally. Spiritual Authority is given to us to use to lead by example, teaching and persasuion (sp). Pastor's are not kings ruling by devine fiat nor are we just members of the congregation "just like everyone else". Our roles are different and we should have authority that people respect because we demonstrate the proper use of the authority vested in us by Jesus. Ephesians 4 tells us that there are 4 (or 5 depending on your view) leadership roles in the church: Apostle, Prophet (preacher), Evangelist (missionary) Pastor/Teacher or Pastor, Teacher. These people are vested by Christ with certain authority and gifted by Him to use it wisely.

We need to be careful that the "American Religion" doesn't take over the church where it is a complete democracy with no leadership and that the "Imperial Religion" doesn't take over the church so that it becomes a dictatorship led by someone other than Jesus. On each path lies ruin.

Kitty, I don't think that you and I are far apart in practice but I think we may be far apart in how we view the basis of that practice. There is a spiritual authority that students must give to teachers until they become teachers themselves or chaos will reign and the enemy of our Lord will have a field day feasting on the sheep.

[Crunchyriff]

Mic, I gotta disagree with you on this: The greek structure in this verse "for those that have rule over you", or "those that have authority over you", is not a spiritual authority. It is almost always used as a definition of those in a rulers position, such as a governor or judge. He is saying, "Be a good citizen. Obey the laws, and the rulers that administer those laws, because they will be held accountable as to whether they are a good ruler/judge or a bad one. Remember, even the world has to face the judgment seat of Christ, so they will be held accountable.

Remember, we are told to live peaceably with those that have rule (authority) over us. So if the rulers of the country are not making an affront to our faith, we can live peaceably with them.

Also, IF we are to always submit to someone that has "spiritual authority" over us, we never would have seen in scripture, Paul getting in Peter's face, and flat out leveling a charge on him of, "You are wrong!" He would have been cast out, and thats the last we would have heard from him.

You know, one thing I have always said, "I'm glad I'm not called to be a pastor." I am totally convinced, 100%, if you were not called by God to be a pastor, you are either:

1) Suffer from delusions of grandeur.
2) Are a con-man, and seeking to fleece "the flock".
3) You enjoy punishment, or are into S&M

A pastor is first and foremost, a servant. A pastor is usually (or used to be) the first one to get to church, and the last one to leave. He cant take the day off, like others in "lesser" ministry positions do. He has to be ready to handle a dozen calls a night at 1, 2 or 3 am, and be loving, kind and patient, no matter how ridiculous or stupid that brother or sister is coming off. And everyone that comes to the pastor for "financing", and cant understand why the church doesnt have the money on hand for:

a) the ministry they want to get started.
b) or the urgent financial help they need.

And then the pastor has to explain why, and still, he has to be loving, kind and patient towards brother or sister "pissed off at you".

No, it is plain to me going by the Greek language, this is not a "spiritual authority", this is just an explanation as to how we should conduct ourselves with our rulers/judges, etc, that sit in authority around us.

And finally, think about this:

We were not a "separate" sect of the Jews (or called Christian) until years after Christ ascended to heaven, so all the Apostles would have been defying this "rule", by not obeying the spiritual leaders in the synagogue's, when they told them to be quiet.

Very well put, Stephen. And, as being not only an church administrator, but an elder as well, I can vouch for all those scenarios and then some.
To sum it all up: The model is Jesus. The servant of servants, as well as the Lord of Lords.

[stephen]

We need to be careful that the "American Religion" doesn't take over the church where it is a complete democracy with no leadership and that the "Imperial Religion" doesn't take over the church so that it becomes a dictatorship led by someone other than Jesus. On each path lies ruin.

Always the battle.

[stephen]

Explain to me why in the part Hebrews 13:17 that says "for they watch for your souls and that must give account"

Here's the text in KJV in case you forgot.
17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Uh, I thought I did answer it. Yep, I did.

:dunno:

Crunchy got it?

I know! I wasnt talking in a blazingly fast speed, finger tapping my nose, and ending in a fast flurry of notes.

Oh, wrong thread...........

[Micter]

Uh, I thought I did answer it. Yep, I did.

:dunno:

Crunchy got it?

I know! I wasnt talking in a blazingly fast speed, finger tapping my nose, and ending in a fast flurry of notes.

Oh, wrong thread........... I had a response but decided to ditch it.

[Kitty]

Kitty, I don't think that you and I are far apart in practice but I think we may be far apart in how we view the basis of that practice.
I think you may be right, although I doubt we both would mean the same thing by that statement. lol

There is a spiritual authority that students must give to teachers until they become teachers themselves or chaos will reign and the enemy of our Lord will have a field day feasting on the sheep.
A spiritual relationship of teacher to student does include leadership, teaching, mentoring, counsel, exhortation, admonishment, grace, compassion, love, etc. etc. It does not include spiritual authority of teacher over student.

The model of "church" that the New Testament gives us is not a model of spiritual hierarchy. There is no functional example of it in any organization in the world to which we can point and say "it works like that." It doesn't exist outside of the body of Christ, and sadly, very often not within the body either. I agree that it is not a democracy nor a dictatorship. It is not a hierarchical relationship of any kind.

Just to clarify, hierarchical relationship DO exist in the church today, just not in the teachings of the New Testament. Apostle, prophet, evangelist, teacher, pastor... those are spiritual gifts, not offices or positions. Any hierarchy resulting from them is the thinking of man, passed down through centuries, not the original teaching of scripture.

I think my basic premise has been lost in all this discussion -- that the New Testament never instructs one believer to exercise spiritual authority over another believer. Therefore we don't submit to the spiritual authority of another believer. We simply submit -- each one to another -- in relationship and fellowship.

I think I will end my contributions here on this topic. God bless you all. The only reason we are having this discussion in the first place is because we all passionately care about the things of God and the body of Christ.

Kitty