Ted Kennedy and salvation

[jrc]

Something has been bothering me all day, specifically about Ted Kennedy but it’s become more general. I guess it’s a doctrine question.

I made an observation to someone earlier today that I doubted Kennedy was saved and got FLAMED. I realize, and am in fact grateful, that I don’t have to make that decision. I do truly realize I AM NOT GOD , and I don’t know who is saved or not. I was not privy to any last minute conversions that may have happened, and don’t discount the possibility of that. I don’t wish him eternal torment. I do feel for his families loss …. Just given the fruit of his life and his positions on what I think are deal-breakers with God, I’m honestly skeptical.

Is that a wrong attitude? Was I wrong to say that?

[stephen]

Your observations, I do not think are wrong. God says that we can judge a mans fruits. But, we cannot make an assumption as to what his final outcome is, because that only rests with God.

And I even have to keep reminding myself, that when I give an opinion, I may be speaking to someone that looked up to this individual, or admires the party he was affiliated with, and my comment might be like a dagger in their heart.

Whenever I find myself in a situation like that, I apologize that they took my comments as being mean, or judgmental, when in fact, I am being truthful, and judgmental, but only judging the fruits that where evident, and leaving the final decision up to God to decide.

"Just given the fruit of his life and his positions on what I think are deal-breakers with God"

There is only one deal breaker with God: To completely deny Him, His Sacrifice, and that it is ONLY by His Grace that you are saved, and you must make Him Lord over your life, no matter how long, or short that may be.

If he lived a life of going on his own power, justifying it all by his works, living the way he wanted to, and ignoring God's calling on his life, and he ignored all the final calls in his final days, he is forever lost, and that is a horrible, tragedy, and nothing to be gleeful about. I'm sure that as the Angels rejoice when one of us messed up bags of human flesh, accepts Christ into our lives completely, I would just about bet, that Jesus Himself, is saddened that His offer to some, ran out upon their death, and they didnt take it.

[jrc]

I understand Stephen, thanks. TK was so high-profile on things like pro-choice and gay rights that it seemed a good opportunity to talk about grace and forgiveness but I just got blasted for even voicing the opinion that given the status-quo, I doubted TK was saved. He was clearly supporting an un-biblical agenda. I even told the person I was talking to I really hoped I was wrong - I didn't know, and took no pleasure in the thought of eternity for Ted in hell. I didn't then and don't presently wish for that to happen. Just that from where I stood, it didn't look good.

Jesus said if we loved Him, we'd obey Him. that's my point about Kennedy - there was no obedience, hence no relationship.

[scooteraz]

I wondered for years why the Catholic Church did not throw him (and a bunch of other pro-abortion Catholic congress members) out. It is hard to imagine Osama bin Laden being saved (based on stated beliefs and actions); on the same basis, it is hard to imagine Ted (or much of the Kennedy clan) being saved for the same reasons.

Having said that, I don't know. And am glad that it is not my decision. I would hope that at the last, he saw the error of his ways and repented, and accepted Jesus.

[stephen]

I would hope that at the last, he saw the error of his ways and repented, and accepted Jesus.

Me to.

[LesStrat]

I agree with my namesake and Scooter.

[jrc]

Me to.

Agreed.

[ptrallan01]

Much of the difficulty of this discussion comes from an incomplete reading of Jesus' instructions. In the Sermon on the Mount he warns us, "judge not lest ye be judged." This seems to prevent us from thinking or saying anything about the behavior and attitudes of others.

In John He instructs us to Judge RIGHTEOUS judgement!!! This requires that we make a judgement. Initially the two statements appear contradictory. When we delve into the words and the intent we find that they are in fact complementary.

We are not to condem others as unworthy of salvation is the actual meaning of the Sermon on the Mount statement. We don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in and we don't have the proper perspective of understanding why God saves those whom he choses to save. Yet we are required to make judgements about peoples behavior, statments, attitudes and opinions as to whether they reflect the Holiness of the God we know, love, and serve and who knows us.

Because the statement in John is virtually unknown outside of students of the bible we have an unbalanced perspective of what Jesus meant. This leads people to believe we have no right to say that an action was wrong, which is not a biblical position.

Trying to communicate this to people who do not have a solid biblical foundation can be difficult, but is well worth God's while.

[jrc]

Much of the difficulty of this discussion comes from an incomplete reading of Jesus' instructions. In the Sermon on the Mount he warns us, "judge not lest ye be judged." This seems to prevent us from thinking or saying anything about the behavior and attitudes of others.

In John He instructs us to Judge RIGHTEOUS judgement!!! This requires that we make a judgement. Initially the two statements appear contradictory. When we delve into the words and the intent we find that they are in fact complementary.

We are not to condem others as unworthy of salvation is the actual meaning of the Sermon on the Mount statement. We don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in and we don't have the proper perspective of understanding why God saves those whom he choses to save. Yet we are required to make judgements about peoples behavior, statments, attitudes and opinions as to whether they reflect the Holiness of the God we know, love, and serve and who knows us.

Because the statement in John is virtually unknown outside of students of the bible we have an unbalanced perspective of what Jesus meant. This leads people to believe we have no right to say that an action was wrong, which is not a biblical position.

Trying to communicate this to people who do not have a solid biblical foundation can be difficult, but is well worth God's while.

Thank you! You have put into words what I have felt in my heart for days.

Do you mind if I share your post elsewhere?

[ptrallan01]

Feel free to use it where ever and whenever you like!

[stephen]

Because the statement in John is virtually unknown outside of students of the bible we have an unbalanced perspective of what Jesus meant. This leads people to believe we have no right to say that an action was wrong, which is not a biblical position.

We have a lot of that going on in the church now too.

[LesStrat]

We had a lengthy discussion about the "Judge not" passage a couple of months ago. It's ironic that the very people who condemn righteous judgment by saying "judge not" are in fact making a judgment.

[Micter]

A couple of things
1. Matthew 7
"1.Judge not lest ye be judged"

is followed up by

"2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

So "Judge not" in most cases is taken out of context.

2. Ted Kennedy was obviously very leftist in his ideals which most of the time are contrary to God (the way I see it). To fight for children's rights and support abortion is obviously a conflictual situation at best. Either way Ted has stood before the God of the universe and has had to make account what he did with the sacrifice of God's son. Personally, I saw quite a bit of footage of him in the last days of his life and it sure didn't show any repentant behavior. That could have all changed in a moment of time. I was talking to Stephen the other day and told him that I believe that there will be many in heaven that we would never thing would be there and there will be people that we are sure will be there that won't. The condition of the heart is for God to know.

[scooteraz]

The other thing I see is that a person can make an observation, and other people will label that as judgement. I observe bad behavior, and I say that I note bad behavior. I am not standing in judgement of the behavior, per say, because judgement implies that I can impart some penalty for the behavior. I am merely observing, and reporting the observation.

Folks like to think that judgement, as it bounces behavior against a fixed standard. But that is no more judgement than saying that you see a red or blue light. I saw theft. That is not a judgement, merely an observation. If I could say, "I saw you thieve from me and you're fired for that action.", then that is judgement.

Again, those that want moral relativism have messed up the language.

[Zhangliqun]

We cannot judge souls, but we are called upon to a significant degree to judge behavior, while understanding our limits in doing so. We always have to keep in mind the potential for extenuating/mitigating circumstances that could sometimes exonerate the individual, or at least put the situation in a different light and inspire compassion.

As an extreme example: I see someone steal a car. It turns out later that his family was being held hostage and would be executed if he didn't steal the car.

But barring such mitigating circumstances, it must be pointed out to those who would label naming theft as theft as "judging" that they are by their own standard "judging" in this same way by labeling me as "judgemental". To those who say to me "who are you to say this is 'wrong'"? I say, "Who are you to say I can't say this is wrong?" This, ladies and gentlemen is epistemological equivalent of Mutual Assured Destruction, aka nihilism.

[mattd]

Much of the difficulty of this discussion comes from an incomplete reading of Jesus' instructions. In the Sermon on the Mount he warns us, "judge not lest ye be judged." This seems to prevent us from thinking or saying anything about the behavior and attitudes of others.

In John He instructs us to Judge RIGHTEOUS judgement!!! This requires that we make a judgement. Initially the two statements appear contradictory. When we delve into the words and the intent we find that they are in fact complementary.

We are not to condem others as unworthy of salvation is the actual meaning of the Sermon on the Mount statement. We don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone in and we don't have the proper perspective of understanding why God saves those whom he choses to save. Yet we are required to make judgements about peoples behavior, statments, attitudes and opinions as to whether they reflect the Holiness of the God we know, love, and serve and who knows us.

Because the statement in John is virtually unknown outside of students of the bible we have an unbalanced perspective of what Jesus meant. This leads people to believe we have no right to say that an action was wrong, which is not a biblical position.

Trying to communicate this to people who do not have a solid biblical foundation can be difficult, but is well worth God's while.


Don't forget Paul in 1 Cornithains: "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you'."

I didn't know TK was affialited with the Catholic church, but if he was, than this applies to him.

[Micter]

Don't forget Paul in 1 Cornithains: "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you'."

I didn't know TK was affialited with the Catholic church, but if he was, than this applies to him.

What? That we shouldn't have judged him? That we should have? or that he should have been thrown out of the church?

:cross:

[davesg]

At Church recently we are going through the John Bevere Study, "Hearts Ablaze", He is spend a lot of time on the fruit issue. One of his statements was that we do not have to take a drill and look at the "heart" of a tree to see if it is good. we can tell by the fruit that it bears. In the matter of TK, there has been no good fruit to see. We are allowed to judge that. If he repented on his death bed, that is a matter between God and him. But if we see someone that is bearing bad fruit, or no fruit at all, shouldn't we judge that and try to turn them?

Luke 13:6-9
6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a R621 fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, `Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without F327 finding any. Cut R622 it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' 8 "And he answered and said to him, `Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.' "

:hmm:

[mattd]

What? That we shouldn't have judged him? That we should have? or that he should have been thrown out of the church?

:cross:


that it is our business to judge him if he claimed to be a member of the church.

[Micter]

that it is our business to judge him if he claimed to be a member of the church.

OK, cool.

[jrc]

I found this as well, I Thessalonians 5:19-22 (emhasis is mine)

19Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22Avoid every kind of evil.

Stongs includes everyone with everything.