What to do with my Hellbilly?

[Old Believer]

I have a Tone Factor Hellbilly distortion pedal that is an integral part of my sound. I'm finally getting a chance to join our fellowships P & W team. A couple of the players are really finicky about things like a pedal called a Hellbilly. This may seem a bit petty, but that's the way it is with some folks.

Do you think taping over the name would be OK?

[kewlpack]

Tape it... no need to freak people out over it.

That's the same reason I'll never by a "HellCat" or "HellRaiser" or [insert potentially offensive name here] product.

We must be examples of "avoiding the appearance of evil"... even if that means avoiding potentially offensive naming conventions. Be sensitive to the conscience of your peers in the faith... as Paul commands.

At the end of the day, it's better to be an excellent, surrendered servant.

[jazzrat]

You have to bow to others sensibilities sometimes.
I won't buy a Peavy Jack Daniels amp just on principle

[seagullplayer]

Tape it... no need to freak people out over it.

That's the same reason I'll never by a "HellCat" or "HellRaiser" or [insert potentially offensive name here] product.

We must be examples of "avoiding the appearance of evil"... even if that means avoiding potentially offensive naming conventions. Be sensitive to the conscience of your peers in the faith... as Paul commands.

At the end of the day, it's better to be an excellent, surrendered servant.

What he said.

[stephen]

Yep, piece of duct tape is less hassle than havin to explain continously to a brother or sister that has an issue with a name.

And if the tape dont sooth em, there is always a can of spray paint in your favorite color!

Oh, and dont be hard on the brother or sister that has problems with it. Just love em more, and pray for em more!

[reverbbb]

My opinion?

I don't think that it is the thin skinner older folks that will be a problem. I would be more concerned about the young kids that come up and want to see your rig. You might be surprised how many kids know everything about your rig - they just don't talk to you about it.

Tape would be cool, but inevetiably, somebody is going to ask you what it is. You could try to get creative and buy a project box and tranfer the guts. Then you would be telling mostly the truth if you said "this is a pedal that I put together from another pedal".

[colefish]

All good advice. Paul talks about not using our freedom in a way that would cause another to stumble. It might be difficult for someone to worship knowing someone on the worship team has a device called a Hellbilly.

It wouldn't bother me but if I were in your position I would try to get a little creative with some paint or some kind of marking device and alter the name somehow.

Anyone ever heard of a Bellhilly? :angel

[MrMike]

For similar reasons, I've decided against putting a Seymour Duncan Screamin' Demon pickup in my guitar, as much as I love George Lynch's tone.

[Ravindave_3600]

no offense, and twice the cool! :cool:

[prscustom24]

This strikes me as just silly.

Hellbilly? Hell, just use the thing.

I stopped caring about others' opinions on such matters the day someone expressed shock when I bent my first note in church. It wasn't wrong, I wasn't sorry, and it absolutely happened again.

"Those people" need to get over it.

[kewlpack]

:shock
Wow. Did not expect that...

A reminder that we are to emulate Christ who did not maintain his "rights, privileges, or desires", but yielded them completely to the point of dying a criminal's death.

Being consciencious about the naming of our tools is humble, responsible, considerate and ... Christ-like.

The Scripture makes it clearer for us...

Matt 18:7
7"Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

And...

Phil 2:1-16
1Is there any encouragement from belonging to Christ? Any comfort from his love? Any fellowship together in the Spirit? Are your hearts tender and sympathetic? 2Then make me truly happy by agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, loving one another, and working together with one heart and purpose.

3Don't be selfish; don't live to make a good impression on others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself. 4Don't think only about your own affairs, but be interested in others, too, and what they are doing.

5Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. 6Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. 7He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. 8And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross. 9Because of this, God raised him up to the heights of heaven and gave him a name that is above every other name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12Dearest friends, you were always so careful to follow my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to put into action God's saving work in your lives, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. 13For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him.

14In everything you do, stay away from complaining and arguing, 15so that no one can speak a word of blame against you. You are to live clean, innocent lives as children of God in a dark world full of crooked and perverse people. Let your lives shine brightly before them. 16Hold tightly to the word of life, so that when Christ returns, I will be proud that I did not lose the race and that my work was not useless.

Also...

1Cor 8 (whole chapter)
1Now let's talk about food that has been sacrificed to idols. You think that everyone should agree with your perfect knowledge. While knowledge may make us feel important, it is love that really builds up the church. 2Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much. 3But the person who loves God is the one God knows and cares for.

4So now, what about it? Should we eat meat that has been sacrificed to idols? Well, we all know that an idol is not really a god and that there is only one God and no other. 5According to some people, there are many so-called gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth. 6But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we exist for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

7However, not all Christians realize this. Some are accustomed to thinking of idols as being real, so when they eat food that has been offered to idols, they think of it as the worship of real gods, and their weak consciences are violated. 8It's true that we can't win God's approval by what we eat. We don't miss out on anything if we don't eat it, and we don't gain anything if we do. 9But you must be careful with this freedom of yours. Do not cause a brother or sister with a weaker conscience to stumble.

10You see, this is what can happen: Weak Christians who think it is wrong to eat this food will see you eating in the temple of an idol. You know there's nothing wrong with it, but they will be encouraged to violate their conscience by eating food that has been dedicated to the idol. 11So because of your superior knowledge, a weak Christian, for whom Christ died, will be destroyed. 12And you are sinning against Christ when you sin against other Christians by encouraging them to do something they believe is wrong. 13If what I eat is going to make another Christian sin, I will never eat meat again as long as I live--for I don't want to make another Christian stumble.

And...

2 Cor 6:1-3
1 As God's partners, we beg you not to reject this marvelous message of God's great kindness. 2For God says,
"At just the right time, I heard you.
On the day of salvation, I helped you."

Indeed, God is ready to help you right now. Today is the day of salvation.

3We try to live in such a way that no one will be hindered from finding the Lord by the way we act, and so no one can find fault with our ministry. 4In everything we do we try to show that we are true ministers of God.

Finally...

1 Cor 11:1
1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

My suggestion was based on these Scriptures and others that are similar. It does matter to Jesus if we are the cause of offense to our brethren. I hope this helps the discussion. :angel

[prscustom24]

I don't name 'em, I just use 'em :cool:

C'mon, the name is nothing more than a clever play on words. . .

[Old Believer]

I'm just going to paint over the name. Matter solved. It'll then be a no name distortion pedal. I'll call it the Secret Weapon. Now I don't have a problem. Yee haw.

[BigJim]

I can understand how you feel. I have a POD XT live, which has an amp model called "Spinal Puppet". When I use it with the Guitar port software the amp model pictured has skulls for each knob with eyes that turn red when you crank the knobs. I don't like it, I like the amp sound but they could have used a different graphic :dunno

I too like other have said tend to stay away from things named in a demonic fashion. Mostly because the sound these item produce it too harsh for my tastes. Oh, and the name just bothers me. But if someone else wants to use the products that's ok with me, I'm not here to judge (that's up to God).

I think what Kewlpack posted is right on, and if you are asking us here what we would do then you too are doning what the bible says and putting the fellings of other ahead of yourself (very Christ-like IMO :angel ).

I'm just going to paint over the name. Matter solved. It'll then be a no name distortion pedal. I'll call it the Secret Weapon. Now I don't have a problem. Yee haw.

You could call it "The Jesus Vibe" :cool:

-Jim

[kewlpack]

Ya - please know that I only wanted to offer counsel - not condemnation. Sometimes surrendering our liberties for the sake of others can pinch. But that's okay. We are just humble servants. :)

[colefish]

I'm just going to paint over the name. Matter solved. It'll then be a no name distortion pedal. I'll call it the Secret Weapon. Now I don't have a problem. Yee haw.

:cool: Yeah, you could paint like, 007 on it or something! :mrgreen:

Nice post Kewlpack.

Hey Mike, we all know that it is just a word play but not all Christians realize this, they think if you are using a pedal like that then you are actually serving the Devil and their weak consciences are violated. Old Believer is not going to miss out on anything if he paints over the name. He certainly wouldn't gain anything if he didn't paint over it and ends up causing problems. But God says we must be careful with our freedom and not to flaunt it. So we as Christians do what is best for the other person with the knowledge that God is not done with that person yet and we extend to them the grace He showed us.

Well I don't want to get preachy, just tryin' to help a brother out. :mrgreen:

[reverbbb]

This topic is a pendulum for me. On one side, I fear being so rightious that I alienate the real world around me. On the other side, what kewlpack has referenced makes a lot of sense.

I sold my Schecter guitars due to the uncomfortable feeling I got, when I looked at their literature. TheViking and I have rested this issue on different sides of the fence. One Schecter that I owned was called Hellcat. Probably the prettiest guitar and most versitile guitar I have ever owned. But I could not get past the nagging feeling that I was not representing the best side of Jesus with a guitar named Hellcat.

I sold the Hellcat for a very modest profit, but I took a huge beating on the other Schecter (-$500).

This is a great topic, but let's be careful not to get too uptight about the other person's opinions, interpretations or perspectives. We are all united as brothers through Christ. Just as in any family, we have the right to disagree and to learn from each other.

The camera had no way of capturing the beauty of the gold metal flake paint over black. But here is that silly old Hellcat:

http://home.comcast.net/~rprivitt/wsb/media/2969/site1024.jpg

[prscustom24]

So where to draw the line?

Should we not play anything with a Fender-style headstock in church because some might think it too closely resembles a certain anatomical feature?

If there are three guitarists performing, should we beware not to line them up, lest someone might observe that three guitars with 6 strings each in a line represents the number of the beast?

Sorry to be contrarian about this, but in my view, folks who seek to create problems out of these things (where none exist), well, it's really all about power for them. If you're willing to give them power over you, they will never leave you alone, you'll have to tiptoe around them for the duration. I choose to give them no power, and I reject the idea that that's somehow un-Christ-like.

But that's just who I am.

[seagullplayer]

I guess the "line" pretty much for me, after reading what Paul has written on the subject many times; If I know it's going to cause a problem, and I do it anyway, I'm at fault.

I don't spend much time thinking about such things. But when I get a gut feeling about something, I have learned to listen. I find that the Holy Spirit often speaks though my "gut". Jesus told us something about control when He said in the garden "Not my will but Thy will be done."

[kewlpack]

Hmmm, guess we'll have to disagree on that point Mike.

We could go on with examples of situations that show us how silly folks can be. There are plenty of them. Still - a balanced and common sense approach is what we strive for.

I understand your position, and I know there are situations where that can be the case (folks get a power trip)... however, even if that happens - we are told "do not resist" and to leave room for God to handle things. Ultimately, Jesus will make it right later on. Our goal is to give no place to the devil.

To emulate Paul: If guitars cause my brother to sin - I will never play another guitar again. Nothing is more important than a soul.

Again - I understand your perspective. May the Lord enrich all of us through these things. No worries. ;)

[prscustom24]

Hmmm, guess we'll have to disagree on that point Mike.

No problem. Just know that I *do* respect your pov

We could go on with examples of situations that show us how silly folks can be.

We can love them without having to love their silliness, yes?

There are plenty of them. Still - a balanced and common sense approach is what we strive for.

I'm reminded that in Christ's balanced and common sense leadership by example, He drove a certain class of folks out of the temple on at least one occasion.

I understand your position, and I know there are situations where that can be the case (folks get a power trip)... however, even if that happens - we are told "do not resist" and to leave room for God to handle things. Ultimately, Jesus will make it right later on. Our goal is to give no place to the devil.

To emulate Paul: If guitars cause my brother to sin - I will never play another guitar again. Nothing is more important than a soul.

Guitars that cause my brother to sin, he can give to me :-)

Again - I understand your perspective. May the Lord enrich all of us through these things. No worries. ;)

:cool: 'nuff said :cool:

[ptrallan01]

Kewlpack Is COOL :cool: !!!!

Good word brother, good word.

Guys remember that between reformation and regimentation is reconcilliation.

We as ministers, and if you play in the praise band/choir/church are a minister, are ministers of reconcilliation. Reconcile ourselves first to the will of God for us and then we can help others to be reconciled to Him and through Him to us. We can't do what we want, we have to do what He wants.

Yes Jesus threw people out of the temple for usury and theft, not supersilious attitudes. He threw themout for interfering with peoples right and need to pray! If we interfere with our brothers ability to worship we need to stop and help out particularly if we are WORSHIP team participants.

Thanks guys for a great thread and wonderful discussion on all sides of the issue.

Peter

[prscustom24]

Yes Jesus threw people out of the temple for usury and theft, not supersilious attitudes. He threw themout for interfering with peoples right and need to pray! If we interfere with our brothers ability to worship we need to stop and help out particularly if we are WORSHIP team participants.

Thanks guys for a great thread and wonderful discussion on all sides of the issue.

Peter

I won't claim to know why Jesus did what He did at the temple, just making the point that he wasn't _always_ passive in his approach.

My first ever stomp box was an E-H Soul Preacher. Still have it. I guess that should be pretty safe to use, huh? Or can anybody think of a circumstance where that might be an affront to somebody's sensitivities?

[stephen]

I think this is a great topic!

I remember a circumstance along these lines almost made me leave the P&W Team:

A congregant complained that the new guy (me) is 'rocking out' way too much and detracting from Praise and Worship.

When I caught wind of that I turned in my resignation from the team. I was told firmly that I could not leave the team, and that this individual that stated it, had been prone to making lots of (as my Team Leader stated) lots of complaints that were just meant to be devisive.

See I always rock and sway, and basically get into the groove so-to-say. I've tried to stop it, but every time that I do, it dont sound right, and I've heard that from others too, so its not just my opinion.

My Team Leader has told me he wants me to "get into it", and really Worship God. Not to get caught up in being so reserved, that my worship is actually being hindered. He said, be like David: he was ridiculed for dancing so strongly before the Ark of the Lord, that his clothing came undone, and all he had covering him was an ephod (sort of a cotton loin cloth). His wife was the chief critic, even berating him to his face. but David didnt care. He was more concerned about Worshipping God with every thing he had in himself. So, I still rock and sway and get into it, cause I'm giving my all to Worship my God, and any one can say what they want, it dont bug me one bit.

Now, as to the names of some of the equipment that are available out there: I passed up on a Reverend "Hellhound", and yeah, I passed up on it just because of the name, and it was about 20 watts hotter than what I need, or would ever use. That was my 'personal choice'. Part of the reason for the name was I was concerend about those that get hung up on those kind's of issues. As an example, my Aunt passed up on buying a great house, for an unbelievable price about 20 years ago, because the street address was, 666 W.190th place. She couldnt deal with the number, and passed on it. Me, I woulda bought it, cause as long as that number is not on my head or on my right hand, it dont worry me one bit! It has no power over me.

I feel the same way about "Hellhound" and "Hellbilly", yada-yada-yada, but it is going to be a possible stumbling block in church for those that are not as ground in the Word. Eventually they will hear the Word enough that they will grow beyond unfounded 'worry', but as soon as they do, there will be a new crop of congregants that are in the same boat. So my personal decision is to pass on equipment tagged like "Hellhound" "Hellbilly", "Badass", etc..

just my 2 cents.

[Ascension]

I understand the name issue but many just make too much of these things :roll: they are just tools . Now I loved the way the BC Rich Bit*h the store I used to work in played and sounded but I don`t play BC Rich guitars because of the emphasis on the demonic in the model names and endorsees. I do however have a love for the Carvin pointies and if I`m playing I`m gonna have one of these bad boys strapped on and be rocking out in the worship service with it and have NEVER had an issue :angel . http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/rutledri/IM000214.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/rutledri/IM000197.jpg

[Ravindave_3600]

Should we not play anything with a Fender-style headstock in church because some might think it too closely resembles a certain anatomical feature?

Pete Townshend's nose?

[prscustom24]

Should we not play anything with a Fender-style headstock in church because some might think it too closely resembles a certain anatomical feature?

Pete Townshend's nose?

http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/slap.gif

[TheViking]

........and joined his local church. Grateful to God, he wanted to use his skills to praise Him. He brought down his stack and his axe to the church. The pastor was a bit concerned about the guitarist’s appearance and told him in a loving way to get a hair cut and swap his leather jacket and jeans for some slacks and a shirt. The guitarist wanted to please both God and the congregation and cut his hair and changed his clothes. After the first service, the pastor approached the guitarist again telling him, a stack and his electric guitar resembled a rock concert too much, and asked him to remove it and replace it all with an acoustic guitar. The guitarist still wanting to please the congregation and God, picked out his trusty old Gibson and brought it to church the following Sunday. After the service the pastor approached him again, this time holding a tambourine in his hand. He looked at the guitarist shaking his head a bit and said, -Son, do you mind playing this instead? The guitarist looked at the pastor and said – Sure, but tells me why I can’t play my guitar? The pastor looked back at him again and said -Son, I’m sorry, but someone brought to my attention that your guitar actually has a G-string

[reverbbb]

........-Son, I’m sorry, but someone brought to my attention that your guitar actually has a G-string

Yeah, but didn't he point out that he would not be able to play the Gsus (Jesus) chord on a tamborine? :angel

[BigJim]

G-Sting... :ROFL

Yes, I have too been told that I "Rock out too much". Usually by the pastor, but he admits he likes rock and roll. His comment has more to do with him thinking I'm too loud and too much distortion. My wife told me once that the distortion I was using hurt her ears and ask if I could use a more subtle distored tone. In both cases I backed off of what I realy wnated to do and tried to please the people in the congregation. My bigest worry has been being too disruptive to the worship service for others to enjoy the music and worship God. IMO the music and the sounds of our guitars that we so love doesn't matter much to God, just what is in our hearts does. Now I know that some of us can't express what is in our hearts without these tools and skills we have been given, just like David couldn't express his love for God without loosing his shirt :oops:, but God knows this and he love us in spite of our silliness. He knows what's in our hearts.

I still remember when I was asked to play for the worship team. My first service the pastor anounced that we have an electric guitar added to the group and if I was too loud the could turn me down :???: . Well know one complained and I have been playing ever since. I did however change what I wore to church. The first few services I played in I had a bright yellow strap with a black lightening bolt on it and I wore a Sturgis Motorcycle Rally T-Shirt. Again no one complained. My wife however sugested and I also realized that it was not a good image to have standing infront of a church and leading them. Now I have a plain black strap and I try to ware collared shirts.

I guess people just complain about what they notice or choose to notice the most (earthly things).

I am reminded of John 21:20 - 23:
Peter turned around and saw the disciple Jesus loved following them--the one who had leaned over to Jesus during supper and asked, "Lord, who among us will betray you?" 21Peter asked Jesus, "What about him, Lord?"
22Jesus replied, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You follow me." 23So the rumor spread among the community of believers[4] that that disciple wouldn't die. But that isn't what Jesus said at all. He only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

Jesus telling Peter not ot worry about others but to worry about his own task Jesus had given him "Follow Me". We must remember that we need to follow Juesus with our hearts and not let what others "think" we should do direct us. But we should also not cause other tr stary with our actions. Wow, talk about a narrow road.....

Well, Just my thoughts.

-Jim

[Ascension]

One thing that has not been mentioned here is the issue of transparent worshipers.Those who don`t stand it the way of the congregation and between God and the people . We can get loud and radical in worship and have fun but only when it doesn`t bring attention to US but is done out of a heart for Him. I remember Don Potter on one of the Morning Star recordings during a prophetic interlude singing "if you stand between God and His Children He will make you transparent so He will be seen instead of you".It doesnt matter what guitar or stomp box or amp we play (within reason of course :innocent ) but what spirit we play it with is CRITICAL.I find myself at times rocking HARD in service but am allways aware of the enviorment and carefull to complement the flow of the worship and stay immersed in it and not bring attention to my self for attentions sake. Yes I do love the Pointy V220`s, X220`s and Ultra V`s and at allmost every service am going to be playing one but I also understand understand they are only tools .

[Crunchyriff]

For similar reasons, I've decided against putting a Seymour Duncan Screamin' Demon pickup in my guitar, as much as I love George Lynch's tone.

Like there is something wrong with that? Methinks there will be a whole lot of screaming when they get thrown in the lake of fire with their leader...
:innocent :cool:

[stephen]

Again I gotta say, great discussion!

It is no matter what side we fall on in this topic, a tite-rope walk. One of my pet peeves is church's that have focused on the peripheral issues, rather than the heart of the matter:

"Well that brother over there doesnt dress up enough to come to God's service! He isnt truly coming before him like that!"

"I heard that sister 'so-n-so' likes to have a glass of wine with a meal every now and then. How can she have a Godly testimony, while drinking wine?!"

"Any one that confesses being a believer, and they smoke cigarettes are just lying to themselves, to others, and to God"

I have not had a nice wardrobe in years. I usually let my clothes fall apart at the seems before I buy anything fo myself, because usually my wife or my kids need something, and I would rather them use the money, and I will wait till I absolutely have to have it. And sometimes I will go and get clothes from the Salvation Army, cause they are cheap! So because my clothes dont have a tag that say's "Giorgio Armani" in em, I'm not truly coming before my King?

If someone has a glass (like Paul told Timothy to do, to calm his nervous upset stomach), they are ruining their testimony?

Smokers cant be saved?

Now in my opinion, while I beleive we should live as pure of a lifestyle as we are capable, the "puritan" view that I see predominantly in the American Church, actually chases 'seekers' right out the door. Case in point:

When I came out of a very hedonistic rock-n-roll lifestyle, I did change. I stopped wearing make-up and tons of jewlery (though I still had a couple earrings, rings and bracelets; and to this day I dont see anything wrong with that), and toned down my style of dress (though I still had an affinity for clogs: they are so comfortable to my feet, and I thought they looked cool!). So basically I wore nice jeans and shirts, still had my hair long, some earrings, a couple of rings, and my clogs.

I had been going to a Baptist Church for about 9 months, and I was eating up the Word of God as much as I could take in. I was participating in a young mans study, and it was my turn to lead the study from our study guide "A walk to the Cross". I really got into the preparation of the study, and found a wealth of Spiritual insight being revealed to me, and through God, I was able to pass that along to the 12 or so young men their. Every one said it was a very profound study, and blessed them greatly. Even the youth pastor that headed it up was struck by how deep this had gone, and said it was excelent. I gave all the Glory to God.

On my way home that night, I felt like I was being called into a life of teaching. A few days later, I went back and spoke with the Youth Pator and said I would like to help, and begin discipleship/apprenticeship, to become a teacher. He told me that there was nothing really open right now, but he would keep me in mind.

Over the next couple of services I had noticed during anouncements, that they kept asking if there was anyone that would be willing to help with the childrens ministry's, and no one had responded, for now to this point, months.

I went back to the same Youth Pastor and said I am willing to help in the childrens ministries. He looked at me for a moment, and then said, lets go in my office and talk.

He then proceeded to tell me how I looked like a freak, and that I scare people at the church, and that many times during board meetings, the topic of asking me to leave comes up. I was devastated. And it affected me for a time. But I saw how that was man, not God. They went strictly on appearances (the long hair and the earrings and the clogs), and ignored my heart completely. Thank God, Jesus judges my heart, and not what I wear!

Now that is not to say that its ok to to dress 'provacativly', or sensual, or scary (to intimidate or shock), but we need to look at people as Christ looks at people: from the heart, and not the outward appearance.

I have no problem with the way that most people dress, or have their hairstyle. It does not bother me one bit if a brother or sister has a galss of wine, or a beer every once in a while (note I said "a" glass/beer, not several), and it doesnt bother me if someone smokes a ciggarette (which for the time being is still legal). And in my opinion, and awful lot of the church's have to get over the peripheral stuff like that, and get back to the heart of the matter: How is your daily walk/relationship with Jesus. If we focus on that, we will se a lot of people develope into mighty men and women for God. And we will also see people wanting to come in to church who wouldnt ordinarily go, cause tye wont feel like everyone is judging them on the way they look, or what they do.

I know thier are extemes to this discussion that I did not touch on like homosexuality, promiscuity, illegal drug use, heavy drinking/alcoholism, shacking up, and some may try to lump liberal views of this such into my "permissive" view on what I have just raised, but no, those are other issues that have to be adressed on their own merit.

Now, it also gets to how do we, the ones trying to transparently lead the congreation in Worship, present ourselves. If no one has a problem with a "hellbilly" or "hellhound" piece of equipment, then fine. If someone does have a problem with it, Love them and do what you can to take that stumbling block out of their way (tape, paint or remove it).

Sorry I got so long winded. :oops:

[MrMike]

For similar reasons, I've decided against putting a Seymour Duncan Screamin' Demon pickup in my guitar, as much as I love George Lynch's tone.

Like there is something wrong with that? Methinks there will be a whole lot of screaming when they get thrown in the lake of fire with their leader...
:innocent :cool:

Great point! Seymour, HERE I COME!!!!!!! :mrgreen: I hadn't thought of it that way.

My former pastor has an illustration he uses. It looks a lot like a round target. The bull's eye is labeled "Core Issues". This would be stuff like "Jesus is the Son of God" and "The Bible is the Divinely Inspired, Inerrant Word of God"- the stuff we're not willing to budge on. The next ring out is labeled "Biblical Commands". The next ring out is labeled "Personal Convictions", things that you feel God has spoken to you personally about. The next is "Theologically Debatable Issues", which would include stuff like the Rapture, Tongues, etc, stuff that's not salvation-dependent issues. The next is "Hunches and Suspicions".
The point is that the closer you get to the center of the target, the more important the issues become. I think that a lot of this discussion falls under the category of "Personal Convictions". I think that it's really important for all of us to personally seek God on these issues and then act obediently to what we feel Him leading us to do.

[TheViking]

..... I know you guys probably figured out what camp I'm in when it comes to this topic. Yes I agree that we should not provoke or tempt people, BUT I also claim the right to ask myself WHY people have a problem with this or that.

If someone in church have a problem with me playing a demon pickup a hellbilly fx or even a Schecter guitar I wonder why? The people know me, they know I am a Christian they know I am born again, and they know I use my talents to praise God.

If people have a problem with how others dress, their hairstyle, the amount of tattoos or piercings they have, I ask myself why?

If someone have a problem with the fact that members of their congregation smoke, have a glass of wine or even sends a beer or two down the hatch I ask myself why=

Do they feel intimidated? Do they feel frightened? Do they feel I or other people are bad examples? Do they feel as if what I play or how people live gives them an excuse to live further from God?

To be quite frank here, I think a lot of the people who goes around pointing at this or that do so out of several not so “brotherly” reasons. Many times when I have met people who have acted like this, I have actually sat down with them to listen to their points of view. A lot of these people feel they have had to sacrifice a lot to be Christians. Many of them have grown up in homes where most fun is sin. They feel that what they have sacrificed is an important part of being saved, and view people who live more freely as not quite as good believers. I am not saying this goes for all, but many of the people I have talked with have displayed these kinds of thoughts.

For me, I am far too busy trying to stay close to God and keep my own path straight. I don’t have the time to run around and watch what my fellow Christians are doing, thinking, believing or committing. I am saved by Grace, and so are we all. We mature at different speed. We grow closer to Christ in our own pace. I don’t feel I have the need or even the right to tell people how to dress, what to play or to smoke or not. I am not talking about extreme cases here, but about normal people with a healthy mind. I wish sometimes Christians would be more concerned about our own faith than running around and minding others.

[stephen]

I wish sometimes Christians would be more concerned about our own faith than running around and minding others.

Amen.

[Crunchyriff]

For me, I am far too busy trying to stay close to God and keep my own path straight. I don’t have the time to run around and watch what my fellow Christians are doing, thinking, believing or committing. I am saved by Grace, and so are we all. We mature at different speed. We grow closer to Christ in our own pace. I don’t feel I have the need or even the right to tell people how to dress, what to play or to smoke or not. I am not talking about extreme cases here, but about normal people with a healthy mind. I wish sometimes Christians would be more concerned about our own faith than running around and minding others.

WOO-HOOO!!!! Preach it, brother!! That is a 5-star response. I wanna be your neighbor, Viking!

Like the Holy Spirit needs a clone or something.... :dunno

[stephen]

WOO-HOOO!!!! Preach it, brother!! That is a 5-star response. I wanna be your neighbor, Viking!

Like the Holy Spirit needs a clone or something.... :dunno

Yep, and he said with about 80% fewer words than I would have too!

[ptrallan01]

The three Ls.

We are free of the law that is the entire point of the book of Galatians. We are give Liberty from Legalism but it is not License to do whatever we want.

As leaders our liberty is reduced. We don't functionally have the same permissions because what we do sets a standard. I don't have a problem owning a Hellhound, but I would never use it publicly because IT WOULD disturb people for no purpose.

Now don't get me wrong I tend to be a VERY in your face pastor who speaks very plainly about the subjects of life as it is really lived. I am controversial enough as it is and don't want more. My job is to disturb some people and make them think about themselves or as the bible says examine themselves whether they be in the faith or not. I can't answer that question for anybody. Each of us must work out/work through our salvation in fear and trembling.

But because I hold a position of leadership I wear a tie more than I care too because it makes others feel comfortable, I avoid going to the riverboat for dinner because someone MIGHT mistake it for a gambling visit.

My point is that we who are in leadership, we who are on the platform give up a certain amount of our liberty in order to reach others with what we do.

Paint over the name change the graphic, cut your hair if necessary but don't offend your brothers. Timothy was a grown man when he was CIRCUMSIZED in order to end a controversy with certain believers. :oops: :???:

You have the liberty to do what you want. I hope you will do what it take to reach the most people. As Paul said I become all things to all men that I might reach some.

Love

Peter

[Crunchyriff]

In all this, I think it boils down to what the Holy Spirit puts upon each of our hearts to do as individuals, and he has a multitude of ways to communicate these things to us.

The beauty of this is that, if we are indeed submitted to God, the HS will reach our hearts, we will indeed respond in obedience; and those 'due' corrections will be made to accomplish all that God has set to do with us, and, through us.

[kewlpack]

Peter - I think you and I are looking at it from a view that the other guys cannot see (perhaps). That is, the perspective of a preacher/pastor. One who is "on the spot" for everything we do. You put it pretty clearly in your last post.

Going along with what you wrote: A person who is a leader MUST be aware of his example and realize that he will be accountable to Christ Himself for what he teaches by word, deed, letter or example.

By "leader" I mean - we who are/have-been in those influential leadership positions (not just playing a guitar or singing, mind you... [the scope in our thread here]) where souls are lost and won based on our very character and how our daily choices influence another person.

People in a praise & worship band may not understand the power they wield through their example and character. I know that I don't think about it all the time when I'm "in the moment"... and most P&W band members have not been in our shoes (that is, the prime leader in a congregation), so they haven't had the chance to feel that same pressure to be "blameless and upright in all things; proving to be examples to the flock; etc."

We look at this issue a lot differently than someone who is not serving in the same capacity because of the potentially WONDERFUL or terrible results. We see it this way because of the history we have with people who've gone both ways.

Folks who haven't had a soul snatched away because of something they did or said (by accident or misunderstanding) won't be able to relate well when we come at this topic so strongly.

Now, it is true that some folks get too knit picky and perhaps too sensitive about this or that thing. I mean, people will argue about carpet color! Gah!

Nevertheless - that is not a license for any Christian in the Church (preacher or not) to blow that person off or treat their concerns as if they are silly. We are never given that permission by Christ or an Apostle. The overly scrupulous person needs to grow beyond their superficiality, and we must grow in our longsuffering, our surrender of self ("take up your cross"), and the patience of Christ - with even the weakest member of the flock.

There are diverse opinions in this thread. I know we are striving to have a godly position. Hopefully this particular post will at least bring up the simple experience-gap in ministry experience that explains why the various ideas exist. It makes sense and is a fact of life in Christ.

I know it seems silly to have to tape off a name because it could be offensive. I totally understand. At the same time I can see the real danger if I shirk my personal responsibility to my brothers and sisters.

Our goal is to please God in all we do. Holding on to something that we know offends someone can/will create rifts and broken fellowship. Proverbs 6:19 says that "God hates/despises... one who spreads strife among the brethren." May we completely avoid this - even if we have to surrender our convenience/preference/choices.

It is never a sin to put another person's needs above your own. Phil 2:5, ff.

I hope this all comes across the right way. I'm just trying to show why there are differences... but in the end call us all back to the feet of Christ, where we can learn the Truth! :angel

[BigJim]

What a great conversation this has become!

I find myself agreeing with all point os view for different reason. Kewlpack has a great point here. As a leader/teacher you will be judged by God more criticallly than just the followers. As a pastor you could lead a whole congregation down the wrong path (quiet easily) just by your actions. I have seen this in my own house. My wife has three boys all teenagers (she had them when I met her), these kids look up to me and tend to mimick my actions. If I stray they will also stray! I didn't realize this until it was almost too late. We as a family started to have problems with the kids. My wife's ex-husband also has a strong influence over their lives (he does not belive in God, he will someday though :innocent ). This has caused my wife and I to be more aware of our actions.

I talked with my pastor about this topic (the fx pedal). His response was "Get over it. It's just a name". He also said when it comes right down to it we say "hell" every day when we say "hello", so where di you draw the line. Oh, by the way one of his favorite saying is "Get over it".

As for my thoughts on smoking, drinking, etc. I don't mind it htat much. I know God will work in the lives and hearts of those that take part in those things. I believe that if a person really knows Crhist and is saved but still does those things the will make the right decisions in time. As someone else posted, we all grow in Christ at our own pace. And that is fast enough for God (he has all the time in the world to wait for them :cool: ). BTW, I like to have a ocasional drink, I have a friend that smokes, and I like to read the Harry Potter novels. Am I less of a christian because of this? NO! I still love God with all my heart, and my friend is still very dear to me, even though he smokes.

When bringing sould to Christ we have to remember to get the person saved first, then let the Holy Spirit work on the behavior.

"When you ffirend is in trouble you've got to reach out your hand to
him, because that's what it's there for. And when you heart is in
trouble you got to reach it out to the Man up there, because that's
what he's there for"
--Neil Diamond

Just remember that in the end, no matter what side of the issue we stand on, we ALL stand TOGETHER in Christ.


I fell like I have benn :soapbox. I'll step down now :oops:

-Jim

[Old Believer]

What a great conversation this has become!

I find myself agreeing with all point os view for different reason. Kewlpack has a great point here. As a leader/teacher you will be judged by God more criticallly than just the followers. As a pastor you could lead a whole congregation down the wrong path (quiet easily) just by your actions. I have seen this in my own house. My wife has three boys all teenagers (she had them when I met her), these kids look up to me and tend to mimick my actions. If I stray they will also stray! I didn't realize this until it was almost too late. We as a family started to have problems with the kids. My wife's ex-husband also has a strong influence over their lives (he does not belive in God, he will someday though :innocent ). This has caused my wife and I to be more aware of our actions.

I talked with my pastor about this topic (the fx pedal). His response was "Get over it. It's just a name". He also said when it comes right down to it we say "hell" every day when we say "hello", so where di you draw the line. Oh, by the way one of his favorite saying is "Get over it".

As for my thoughts on smoking, drinking, etc. I don't mind it htat much. I know God will work in the lives and hearts of those that take part in those things. I believe that if a person really knows Crhist and is saved but still does those things the will make the right decisions in time. As someone else posted, we all grow in Christ at our own pace. And that is fast enough for God (he has all the time in the world to wait for them :cool: ). BTW, I like to have a ocasional drink, I have a friend that smokes, and I like to read the Harry Potter novels. Am I less of a christian because of this? NO! I still love God with all my heart, and my friend is still very dear to me, even though he smokes.

When bringing sould to Christ we have to remember to get the person saved first, then let the Holy Spirit work on the behavior.

"When you ffirend is in trouble you've got to reach out your hand to
him, because that's what it's there for. And when you heart is in
trouble you got to reach it out to the Man up there, because that's
what he's there for"
--Neil Diamond

Just remember that in the end, no matter what side of the issue we stand on, we ALL stand TOGETHER in Christ.


I fell like I have benn :soapbox. I'll step down now :oops:

-Jim

Jim,

All good points. I didn't realize that I would set off a theological debate. My main concern is that I don't want to stumble fellow believers, especially the new ones.

I guess it is really a matter of liberty vs. legalism.

I tried to keep my distance from Christianity because of the legalism I saw as a child. It was, I believe, legalism and folks with "religous spirits" that kept my dad away from Christianity until about a month before he died. I watched my mom's family's version of Christianity and it scared me. It was a matter of how you dressed, which church you attended, how much you gave, and the number of degrees the "minister" had. Need less to say whenever a Christian got close I moved the other way. I really believe this was because of the legalism I saw as a kid. I would be willing to say that in many cases it's the legalistic nature of many believers that turns people away from Christianity.

[BigJim]

I tried to keep my distance from Christianity because of the legalism I saw as a child

Me too. In fact, there was a point in my life that I was struggling. God was calling me back to him and I was wondering away. At a point just before I rededicated my life to Christ, I was turned away by what another christian said. This person was rebuking people who say they are christians but then go into bars and have a drink, or have an ocasional beer. She was, IMO, being very legalistic. It made me wounder if I was a christian (as I had been told most of my life I was). I felt like she was saying that I had to correct my life and get rid of all the sin I had before I could be come a christian. And if I stumbled that I was never really a christian and that is why I stumbled. At the time I dind't know enough about what it means to be a christian and what it means to have a christian life.

Unfortunatly this happens all to often with people that are "young" in their faith. They see or hear pepole judging others that are really no differnet from themselves and so they turn away from Christ thinking they are not ready or not good enough to follow Christ. When in truth we are all not good enough and that is why we need to follow Christ. The best thing that happend to me when I finally started to submit my life to Christ was my pastor telling the congregation that he stills sins and he still makes mistakes and he is not good enough in the eyes of God. In other words he is a sinner and strugles with his walk just as I do, and that God loves us anyway.

I really enjoy this thread to see how everybody sees this issue (what to do about the name of an earthly object) differently. This to me is what it means to be human. And it seems that this thread has gone from a simple question about a name to a fundimental question about faith in general and how our individual beliefs and actions can influence others so much.

-Jim

[Old Believer]

Jim,

It's cool how God keeps calling us, and all we have to do is listen. He isn't going to force us to be his child, but he really wants us. That's one of the real blessings of being a Christian, we aren't supposed to do because we have to to, we do it because we want to. Why would a loving Father want us to love Him because he makes us love Him.

[Old Believer]

Well. After weeks of mulling it over, I put the Hellbilly on eBay. I don't need it bad enough to face the possibility of stumbling someone, or having to answer why the name is taped over. If I painted it the value would be gone. So it's going.

[kewlpack]

Thanks for the update OB. I didn't see that move comin'. But I totally understand.

Now go grab that new Line 6 "Death Metal" pedal and all will be good in the world! :shock J/K bro. hehehe.

[Old Believer]

Thanks for the update OB. I didn't see that move comin'. But I totally understand.

Now go grab that new Line 6 "Death Metal" pedal and all will be good in the world! :shock J/K bro. hehehe.

I just couldn't keep it. I don't need a "dirt box" that bad. It's not like there aren't a million of them out there. 8-[

[Old Believer]

The Hellbilly went as a Buy It Now in two hours. Only lost $10.00 on the deal. I think God wanted it gone from Dave's pedalboard. :angel

[LesStrat]

Good call painting over the name.

I always wanted to try out the Snarling Dogs Verytone Dog pedal...but I couldn't help but wonder what impression would be given by the glowing red eyes that are ilumintated when the pedal is on....

But I'd still like to try one.


I, too, play the POD XTL. One of my most used settings is a modified version of "Run Like Hell". I prefer to think of it as the sinner running FROM hell to the tune of my praise guitar.

[Crunchyriff]

I think God wanted it gone from Dave's pedalboard.

Wel I dunno about that, but it's quite obvious somebody else did!! :mrgreen:

[seagullplayer]

The Hellbilly went as a Buy It Now in two hours. Only lost $10.00 on the deal. I think God wanted it gone from Dave's pedalboard. :angel

I expect in the end you may have gained much more than you ever lost. ;)

[Ravindave_3600]

I think God wanted it gone from Dave's pedalboard.

Wel I dunno about that, but it's quite obvious somebody else did!! :mrgreen:

Reminds me of an old preacher story -
Just before the revival evangelist got up to preach he leaned on the arm of his chair; it broke and he fell to the platform. The pastor helped him up and urgently whispered, "Do you think it's the devil's work?" The evangelist whispered back, "I think it's poor workmanship."

I always wanted to try out the Snarling Dogs Verytone Dog pedal...but I couldn't help but wonder what impression would be given by the glowing red eyes that are ilumintated when the pedal is on....

But I'd still like to try one.

I like the whole concept of snarling dogs, from the foot-shaped wahs to the glowing eyes. I'd be willing to try 'em out. The only reason I haven't bought one is that Harmony Central reviews indicate quality control problems.

Now go grab that new Line 6 "Death Metal" pedal and all will be good in the world!

:ROFL :rofl:

[Kitty]

Hi guys,

I realized I'm bringing up old posts but I'm new and looking around in the old stuff... since not many of you seem to be talking right NOW. :)

I had a guitar once that I wasn't sure if I should be leading worship with it or not. So I asked the Lord, "should I be leading worship with this guitar?"

He didn't tell me. He only asked me a question in return: "do you want to be wondering about that every time you lead worship?"

That pretty much solved it for me right there.

Kitty

[seagullplayer]

Hi guys,

I realized I'm bringing up old posts but I'm new and looking around in the old stuff... since not many of you seem to be talking right NOW. :)

I had a guitar once that I wasn't sure if I should be leading worship with it or not. So I asked the Lord, "should I be leading worship with this guitar?"

He didn't tell me. He only asked me a question in return: "do you want to be wondering about that every time you lead worship?"

That pretty much solved it for me right there.

Kitty

Great insight Kitty, and welcome to the forum. Dig whereever you like.

[reverbbb]

Hi guys,

I realized I'm bringing up old posts but I'm new and looking around in the old stuff... since not many of you seem to be talking right NOW. :)

I had a guitar once that I wasn't sure if I should be leading worship with it or not. So I asked the Lord, "should I be leading worship with this guitar?"

He didn't tell me. He only asked me a question in return: "do you want to be wondering about that every time you lead worship?"

That pretty much solved it for me right there.

Kitty

That sums it up very well. If it is distracting you, then you need to rid yourself of the distraction. That is how I felt about my Schecter Hellcat and Schecter CET Lacewood guitars. Both guitars were among the best that I have ever owned. But I was constantly wondering "what people think", "what God is thinking" and the rapid decline in value. I was totally distracted. So, they had to go. (In case you are wondering, there was nothing offensive about the CET, it was the company I had a problem with).

[Old Believer]

Hi guys,

I realized I'm bringing up old posts but I'm new and looking around in the old stuff... since not many of you seem to be talking right NOW. :)

I had a guitar once that I wasn't sure if I should be leading worship with it or not. So I asked the Lord, "should I be leading worship with this guitar?"

He didn't tell me. He only asked me a question in return: "do you want to be wondering about that every time you lead worship?"

That pretty much solved it for me right there.

Kitty

Howdy. Welcome to our little corner of the Internet. That was how I felt. Why wonder about it, just sell it.