$37K - should I do it?

[reverbbb]

I just got the call yesterday, that my local Toyota dealer is now taking orders on the new Toyota Highlander Hybrid. I predict, that within the week, there will be 5,000 orders on these vehicles. There is now a 3 year back-order on the Toyota Prius according to one source (and confirmed by someone waiting). Last month, the Toyota press-release was stating that there are over 31,000 confirmed customers waiting for the Highlander Hybrid. I think that this year's production will be less than 5,000 vehicles.

The problem is, the cost. It is BIG! After the non-negotiable list price of $33K, the dealer $1500 upcharge for the demand, the 6.25% sales tax, plus title and license fees, this is racked up to a whopping $37K :shock .

If I want to get into this vehicle, then I am going to have to act fast (like today). The dealer is requiring a non-refundable (unless an order error from the factory) $500 deposit. Then, I am placed in the queue of a 3 month delivery. If I wait until next week, the wait could increase to 5 or 6 months and the price may increase.

I am so leary to spending that much money on a vehicle that will certainly depreciate. However, they tell me that a 3 year old Prius is still holding 90% of it's list price value due to the demand and the back-log. In about 5 years, the expensive maintenance will begin (like a $3000 battery replacement).

The anticipated gas milage is about 40 mpg EPA estimates. A non-hybrid Highlander is about 24 mpg. But analysts warn that you should not buy a hybrid vehicle to save money - it won't happen considering the price of the vehicle and the long term maintenance. On the other hand, that statement was issued before the $3.00 gas predictions was widely publisized. I am strongly considering this technology for two reasons: 1) I must do SOMETHING to stop burning up the limited petroleum that God gave the earth 50 million years ago, 2) I don't mind paying a premium to help promote the shift in technology (I put my money where my mouth is in a sense).

Someone suggested that I consider leasing. Then in 5 years when the maintenance and the obscelesence begins, I can give the vehicle back and start over. Until now, I have never considered leasing as a practicle solution.

What would you guys do if you barely had the financial means to go through with it? You should consider that my current '92 Silverado has 230,000 miles and is costing me $600+ in repairs every few months now. I am on the verge of buying a new SOMETHING any way.

[prscustom24]

I never pay ADP.

If it were the last vehicle on the planet, and I was told I had to pay above sticker for it, I'd find another way to get around.

[kewlpack]

What would you guys do if you barely had the financial means to go through with it? You should consider that my current '92 Silverado has 230,000 miles and is costing me $600+ in repairs every few months now. I am on the verge of buying a new SOMETHING any way.

Honestly, I wouldn't even give it a second look. That's a LOT of money for a car... You could find an automobile that is a year or two old, in great condition, with low miles. You can get awesome deals on these cars and they will last you a long time!

I bought my 1996 Grand Voyager with 25k miles in great condition for $13.5k in 97.

The next year (98) I bought my 1997 Pontiac Grand Prix SE (3.8 v6) with 28k miles in great condition for $15.5k.

I still have both vehicles and, while they do need some maintenance and new shocks, they are running just fine and still get great gas mileage.

So for less than the base price of the new Toyota hybrid, I have been able to own/use two reasonably nice vehicles for almost 10 years each.

Of course, YMMV depending on what you really need.

Just my 2¢

[Crunchyriff]

I'll bite with the risk of being unpopular.

I'd pass and get another Silverado.

See, I spent over 20 years in the automotive service industry. The cars being produced today are so freaking clean, that the pollutants are almost immeasurable on many...yet even in these new super close-tolerance engines that now need water-thin viscosity oil to run, and yield virtually NOTHING bad out the tailpipe, the mantra is "we must do MORE".

Yeah, sure. Whacko pigs.

Heck, I just put a new catalytic convertor on my 160,000 mile '92 GMC truck last year, and everything measured ZERO afterwards. ZERO!!

Seriously. I'm waiting to align ourselves to get a Suburban, FWIW. This 'limited resources' ploy is pure CRAP that is being handed out on a silver platter. Back in the 70's there was a big scare campaign among some of the major Universites, that swore up and down we would be oil-dry in 20 years. Guess they didn't know their fanny from a hot rock, eh? This planet has oil up the ying-yang; it's lib nutcases wearing birkenstocks who drive 10mpg Navigators that won't let us touch it. And it's all a part of the Euro-Socialist Lib agenda here, plain and simple. Those people can go pound sand.

I'm all for eco-responsibilty, and for being a steward of the planet. Bottom line is, I feel it's highly arrogant to believe we are going to destroy the planet, be it by ANY means- Nuclear, or otherwise. We certainly have the means to do so, don't get me wrong, but that sole right is reserved for God at the end-time. Period. And 'global warming' is a proven load of spoiled tripe- that's one of the UN's dirty little secrets they know full well about, yet it remains one of their darling "causes".
PFFT!

Those recent EV's BTW, were nothing but a political tool that went nowhere, FWIW; and I was involved with one of the companies in CA that handled all the EV's firsthand. Great concept, but impossible to implement on a grand scale. WHY? Pricey to buy, pricey to service (if you can find a tech..) few charging stations, limited range, and a lethal allergic reaction to any dust whatsoever- all of them, Chevy, Honda, Toyota, etc. And when the battery pack craps out, it's @50k to replace it.

Now if ya need something smaller, if you have small people, small family, etc, and aren't bothered by small cars, by all means step up to the plate...within reason. Buy something more gas-thrifty. My wifes' green 2001 hotrod needs premium every fillup...how nice, but that's the price you pay when you have a supercharged engine.

The problem is at a greater & more insidious scale than the scam that is purported as the "vehicle" for the means of it's implementation. You've got a movement of people that wants (no demands) us Americans to be like Europe- drive crummy, puny, stupid little (trendy!) cars, pay 4-6 bucks at gallon for gas, live in a social & civil setting far less than what the US had ascribed herself to..and I'm just scratching the surface. After all, we should feel 'guilty' for living a life of plenty when we earned it, instead of ingesting the socialist Euro work ethic, and not doing as well, not to mention enjoying their exorbitant taxes, right?
:ROFL

No thanks, I'm an American, and my great great grandparents left that sewer four generations ago to come here, and I'm not going back.

But I digress...at this time, I couldn't in good consicience "PAY UP" to get in on the scam, even though those are obviously fuel-saving vehicles. I think the Prius is an obvious future hoot for the commuter. Commuter, not family car. But, for that $1,500 "demand upcharge", just how much gas can you buy with that, bro?

The Highlander, as well as the Prius is still a high $$ item in many ways that I cannot FATHOM shouldering the additional expense of this tech in general, considering the real facts about the environment...

off of soapbox now....hope we're still friends.

[TheViking]

is that much for a new car????????????????????????????????????????

Hmm last year I bought my wife a Hyundai Sonata 1996 standard model, with normal milage for a car that old, the list price was abt $16K for it used. If u wanna get a new car under 30K here u would have to buy a Ford Ka or something :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead I wanna move to the USA and get to buy new cars for 37K too

[reverbbb]

Crunchyriff:

In the midst of your passionate plea, I see some good points. I am taking some into serious consideration.

But as far as the gas availability goes, you and I see things very differenty.

I was one of those who was studying the energy trends in college back in 1980. I majored in Solar Technologies. I still have a book that was published by a group of US Geologists working under a grant from the DOE. The book is a factual assessment of energy consumption, technologies and availability. There are graphs, tables, white-papers and just about any data that you can think of about solar, petroleum, hydro, neucler, fussion, coal, helium, hydrogen, kenetic, natural gas, etc.

The bottom line, is that there is a lot of petroleum under the ground. But they predicted $2.00 per gallon of gasoline by 2010, and $5.00 per gallon by 2020. By 2050 the gasoline prices will be the equivalant of $100.00 per gallon. The reasons are complex. But part of the reasons are, inflation, deeper drilling costs, politics, social order, throughput vs. demand, and fear. We already see the throughput vs. demand, politics and drilling costs effecting the price of gasoline (actually 5 years earlier than predicted). A single event like 9-11 World Trade Center (or China at war with Tiawan) can instill a great deal of the fear factor as well.

But the reality is, that by 2100 AD the price of gasoline will be so high and the availbility so limited, that the human race will have no choice but to shift their energy needs to less than 10% of what we use today. Additionally, the amount of petroleum in the ground in 2100 will be so little, that it should absolutely be preserved for medical needs for the next 2000 years.

This book tried to stay away from political predictions. But it should be a no brainer to realize that once oil prices reach $5.00/gal in the US (AND THEY WILL), that world tension will be at a breaking point.

Can my over-priced hybrid help fix this problem? Not by itself, and not by me alone. But the idea here is to reverse the trend instead of continuing to ignore the problems that we will soon face.

Our energy needs is like a 5,000 ton tanker headed towards a shear rock cliff. We might can slow down from 30 mph to 15 mph, but we are still going to crash.

~~~~~~

Alex:

I appreciate the thought of saving money and buying a used vehicle. But how does that contribute towards lowering my dependency on energy?

[reverbbb]

I never pay ADP.

If it were the last vehicle on the planet, and I was told I had to pay above sticker for it, I'd find another way to get around.

Let's assume that today, this was your reality. What would you do? How much are you willing to sacrifice for this "another way to get around"?

Remember. I opened this conversation about price. But the real discussion is "what is it worth to be a part of conservation".

I have always found myself on the "unpopular" side of these discussions. That is because I am convinced that our world, being driven by our thirst for energy, is not seeing the reality that our human race is destined towards. I am in the minority. Yet, I don't chain myself to trees. I do feel that I should set the example of living on less.

[kewlpack]

I appreciate the thought of saving money and buying a used vehicle. But how does that contribute towards lowering my dependency on energy?

Um... it doesn't. I was answering the "What would you guys do if you barely had the financial means to go through with it?" question. :angel

I'm not worried about energy, ozone or water conservation at all personally. My philosophy is simplistic and, admittedly, probably naive in many ways... but I believe God will simply provide what we need when we need it - as we need it. If we use it up too fast - well that's a whole other discussion I guess. But He did give us the earth to dominate and do with as we please.

If some folks want to buy one of these cool hybrids (I like 'em too), conserve water, or recycle stuff - I'm all for it. If not, well I don't mind that either.

As for how long natural resources hold out around here? I'm confident God will provide all we need as long as we're around (He doesn't suffer from short-sightedness like me, and He has a bigger plan that includes natural resources) - and He will burn up the leftovers when the time is right. Then the issue simply "isn't". ;)

But while we are still terra-trotting along, I think the variety of technologies that help conserve stuff will make their way into the mainstream and hit reasonable price points for consumers - just like every other innovation over the last 150 years. In a lot of ways it is about making the next $$$. If the market will bear it, they will charge us for it. The trick is knowing how long to hold out before you throw in your cash! :innocent

When talking about the future of the earth, mankind, natural resources and hybrids... we should first follow James advice:
James 4:13,ff"Look here, you people who say, "Today or tomorrow we are going to a certain town and will stay there a year. We will do business there and make a profit." How do you know what will happen tomorrow? For your life is like the morning fog--it's here a little while, then it's gone. What you ought to say is, "If the Lord wants us to, we will live and do this or that." Otherwise you will be boasting about your own plans, and all such boasting is evil."

If the Lord wills... then it's all good. ;)

Under the surface, this is a huge topic from any perspective!

[Crunchyriff]

reverbb: I too share your concerns for long-term energy resources, and new opportunities, please don't get me wrong. And when it comes to my fuel budget, I don't spend any more than I have to, or use my truck any more than it warrants for the most part. After all, I'd rather buy other things. Due to the size of my family, ( I have two huge teenage boys), and I am a professional musician, I also need a rig that will accomodate these transportation needs.

Being also very much aware of the sham that's being promulgated by many, I'm not going to wring my hands about it.

But I ALSO share Kewlpacks' ideal in that God always gives us what we NEED, when we need it. (Some may call it 'naive'; that's ok, I'm a little child in His sight! ) For the believer, it's His nature; and that becomes a by-product that the world ends up sharing in. At the appointed time, "knowledge will increase" some more, and there certainly will be solutions. We are here until God says 'it's over'.

I am not questioning the honesty of your concerns, nor disagreeing with them in general, nor do I condemn you whatsoever. If you interpret my passion in this manner in an untoward personal fashion, I ask your forgiveness, as this is not my goal or intention whatsoever.

I can take passionate rebuttals, too (HAR!!); the last thing I want is blase', lukewarm, vapid, tepid, superficial banter.

I am growing to love you guys immensely, you are a drink of fresh water online; and I would do nothing intentionally to offend.

[reverbbb]

Crunchyriffffff:

No offense received by me. :cool:

I too enjoy your open discussion and honesty. I have worked for several companies in my work-life. I can tell you, I know exactly what the struggles are behind the scenes of markerting (money driven) vs. engineering (reality driven).

I also appreciate your effort to revealing the empty "promise" and scare tactics being propogated by the automakers. They love to exploit the market "needs". In my case, I "need" conservation. They are very quick to satisfy my need (just show them the money).

[prscustom24]

The premise for all of these discussions is that all future oil has to come out of the ground.

Ain't necessarily so.

Look around at all the organic waste that might be recycled and go, hmmmm. . .

Actually a buncha guys already did that. They developed a TDP (thermal depolymerization) process, which at its fundamentals is a series of recipes for cooking organic materials, breaking long-chain polymers down into shorter hydrocarbon chains. A pilot thermal depolymerization plant went up near Philly a few years back. It proved out the process under a USN grant. Two years ago, a full-scale TDP recycling plant went online in Carthage, MO. The output is equivalent to Texas light sweet crude. The feedstock is turkey guts. That plant is a spit's distance from a Tyson's processing plant - Butterballs. And, they can make oil from old tires, plastic milk jugs, anything hydrocarbon-based. There's enough organic trash produced in this country every year to provide all 4.7 billion barrels of oil consumed annually in the US.

Why haven't we heard more about this technology? Curiously, the process was claimed to be competitive above $50/bbl, which is of course where we are now. I suspect it's not PC to have folks know that in addition to all the oil still sloshing around underfoot, we know how to remake it from all the hydrocarbon byproducts clogging up our landfills. How can you sell conservation if that were common knowledge? Obviously you can't. And selling conservation as the only answer is all about the power the politicians must have to control us mere mortals.

But all that aside, the fundamental problem with hybrids, like the all-electrics, is that the energy conversion losses don't disappear, they are merely transferred somewhere else.

Bottom line: nothing packs the BTU wallop of a gallon of gasoline. That's why it's still king.

[reverbbb]

Mike:

That is interesting about the poly-hydro-what-nots (a.k.a TDP :lol: ).

This is right up the alley of what I have been contemplating for many years. My thought is that someday, we will be mining land-fills instead of strip-mining the Rockies. There is such a huge surplus to tap into there for metals and fuels.

What conversion losses are you refering to in a hybrid vehicle. The fossil fuels produces kenetics that gets converted back into the batteries. The best use of the kenetics is on deceleration. I don't know how they do it, but they are harvesting that wasted deceleration out of the breaking system. There are conversion losses, but the net gain in efficiency is better than the gasoline engine all by itself.

Willie-gas now has a couple of outlets. The most notible is at the Carls Corner Truckstop just north of Hillsboro. I think I saw on the news that he has another fueling station in the Dallas area that just opened up. The long term problem that I see is the top-soil erosion factor for farming enough biomass to support our energy thirsts. Bio-gas, hybrid, electric cars, wind mills, solar panels, etc. They all contribute a little bit. But none of them are the absolute solution. We need to continue to reduce our usage of energy. However, all industries seem to contiuously increase the demand for energy by designed obsolescents. Make it last just long enough, that the consumer will want to buy another one when that one wears out (cell phones and computers are great examples of that).

[ptrallan01]

That petroleum tensions would trigger WWIII, maybe, maybe not. What difference? WE won't be here!!!! :angel

Reverbb I share some of your thoughts about conservation and admire you for putting your money where your mouth is. More of us should do that. That being said I don't think you should do this because somewhere in your posts you say that you can barely do it. If you can't do it with comfort wait till the next new car. A car is a tool and we should only spend what we can comfortably spend without struggle on our tools. (This includes guitars, well at least sometimes it includes guitars :dunno )

The greatest need for petroleum is not for fuel as it is for medicine and fertilizer but as has been said there is synthetic petroleum, nuclear power for heat and electric and if worse comes to worse we can find a way to burn clean coal.

The time will come when the planet will get cleaned up or God will give us a new one. Which ever you decide enjoy the new vehicle.

Peter

[wishus]

When I first saw the subject of this thread, I thought you were going to buy one of those PRS Dragon guitars (http://www.instrumentexchange.com/bid-form.asp?list_id=296759&pid=41&catid=131&scatid=496&status=1).

I wouldn't buy the SUV, just because I hate spending money on cars. Especially that kind of money. I'd buy the Dragon guitar instead. :lol:

I'm currently driving my 98 Nissan Frontier pickup, with 109,000 miles on it. I hope to get a few more years out of it. When it hits the piont where it is too expensive to maintain, I'll probably get a little 5-door, like a Matrix or a Mazda 3, used with low miles. The pickup was nice in college when I was moving my stuff around a lot, but these days I'm hauling my guitar and amp around more than anything else, and it's not too friendly for that.

[Crunchyriff]

You know , there is one glaring thing that I totally forgot that should up the ante considerably...

There was a report released just a few years ago that revealed a startling discovery- the earth is CONSTANTLY making crude oil- to this very day. They have found that part of earth's natural Eco-cleanup process, the organic waste that accumulates at the bottom of the sea plants, mammals, fish, etc.) get absorbed into the earth's crust at the ocean floor; and over time and pressure and heat, it turns this stuff into crude. I will have to do some digging to come up with it, but there not only was this startling revelation; but an equally quick and thorough media blackout on the subject.

This was the other point I earlier forgot to bring up.

Carry on, gents.

[stephen]

Man, 37K! thats a lot of gettus!

All I could suggest is keep askin questions til you feel you got enough data to decide upon. BUT 37K! :yikes

Now I will have to do some digging too, but I recall a study that was done back in the late 70's, from research that was performed 2 decades prior. It put holes in the theory that it takes hu8ndreds of thousands of years to millions of years to produce crude oil. The research and the experiment took only 10 years, and produced medium to high grade crude oil.

I imagine the oil companies wouldnt like that very much.

edit: forgot the experiment part :jao: !

[reverbbb]

ANNOUNCEMENT!!

I called the salesman at the Toyota dealer and cancelled our appointment. I told him to scratch my name of the list of the waitees. He acted like he was expecting that (funny, I never gave him any reason to think that I would not follow through).

I thank all of you guys for your enlightening discusion on this subject. There was not a single deciding factor in my decision. But rather a rational thinking of economics (need vs. demand vs. effectiveness). In the end, the "effectiveness" did not justify the premium "demand" price.

As far as "barely can afford this", I can afford the payments as long as my wife and I are still working. She is seriously talking about changing jobs real soon. That leads to a little uncertainty. Also, I just dread 5 years of $600/month payments.

For now, I will just continue to repair my truck ($300 this past week end and another $600 VERY soon).

[Crunchyriff]

reverbb- you know as a good steward (and I'm no expert..I have a long way to go, baby), it's prudent to evaluate where you're at in your vehicle maint. expense and programs. What do you have coming up on the horizon for repairs? Is it drivetrain issues? How are the eng. and trans?

If there is anything I can do in the way of advice in this matter I'd be honored to help if I can and if you need.

[Teleguy]

I think the hybred prices will come down as the competition bears down.
My boss just got a Civic Hybred for $19000. The two-door Honda hybred pod of a couple years ago was $40,000!

Meanwhile, my $1500 beater Benz 190D plugs along at 32mpg town or highway. The electric windows no longer work, and it smells like a tugboat, and is slower'n fat kid onna bicycle, but I still get where I'm going.

I should prolly mention I'm a diesel mechanic? :roll:

[SAguitar]

I would buy a bicycle and a Custom Shop Strat, and invest the rest in whatever Jesus would have you do.

[reverbbb]

reverbb- you know as a good steward (and I'm no expert..I have a long way to go, baby), it's prudent to evaluate where you're at in your vehicle maint. expense and programs. What do you have coming up on the horizon for repairs? Is it drivetrain issues? How are the eng. and trans?

If there is anything I can do in the way of advice in this matter I'd be honored to help if I can and if you need.

Well, I wo't try to stretch this story out long. Let's just simply say that I was able to convince the Chevrolet Dealer Repair shop that their faulty part (distributor shaft) caused an explosion in my engine and blew out the rear seal. While they were replacing the rear seal, they advised me to replace the two rear freeze plugs. I authorized that and the total repair cost was $49 :shock .

That was three months ago. Last week, the freeze plug behind the AC rusted through and water was gushing out. So, I tore into it and replaced it. But I could not get the Power Steering pully off to replace the other side. So I put the engine back together. As soon as I filled the radiator, that freeze plug behind the Pwr Strg pump was gushing water. Frustrated and mad, I took the truck down the Chevrolet and they replaced it for $249. But, they told me that the last two were seeping. I asked how much to replace the final two freeze plugs and they said an additional $600 :shock :shock !

So, I just paid them the $249 and brought the truck home. I have water spots on the ground everywhere I park. It is assured that these last two are going to go out within the next few days - maybe even today.

I know that it is my fault that all the freeze plugs have rusted out in only 14 years. I have had so many radiator and water pump failures, that I have not been diligent in keeping a good mix of anti-freeze in the radiator. Now, I'm paying the price.

I am sure that I can get the last two freeze plugs replaced for less money. But I also hear a significant tapping from one of the lifters. That has been like that for about 5 years. I should have had this engine rebuilt now that it has 230,000 miles. But I guess I'm being stuborn and not very wise to the long term costs of piece milling the repairs.

[prscustom24]

SAguitar, I like the way you think. Problem around here is the auto drivers who would sooner run you down as yield the right of way. Came home last night from work, got out on the mountain bike. There's a place where the trail crosses a road. Guy in a car tried to tap me deliberately.

I would only ride to & from work in Plano if I was suicidal.

[prscustom24]

Mike:

[snip]

What conversion losses are you refering to in a hybrid vehicle. The fossil fuels produces kenetics that gets converted back into the batteries. The best use of the kenetics is on deceleration. I don't know how they do it, but they are harvesting that wasted deceleration out of the breaking system. There are conversion losses, but the net gain in efficiency is better than the gasoline engine all by itself.

[snip]



Does the engine provide all the electricity or do you top off the batteries by plugging in overnight, too? That energy gets generated somewhere.

On braking, they turn the traction motor(s) into generator(s). It's not terribly efficient.

[reverbbb]

Mike:

[snip]

What conversion losses are you refering to in a hybrid vehicle. The fossil fuels produces kenetics that gets converted back into the batteries. The best use of the kenetics is on deceleration. I don't know how they do it, but they are harvesting that wasted deceleration out of the breaking system. There are conversion losses, but the net gain in efficiency is better than the gasoline engine all by itself.

[snip]




Does the engine provide all the electricity or do you top off the batteries by plugging in overnight, too? That energy gets generated somewhere.

On braking, they turn the traction motor(s) into generator(s). It's not terribly efficient.

The vehicle never gets plugged in to electricity. It does not even have a connection for a plug. All the battery charge comes from the gas engine. I agree, that the braking power conversion is notextremely efficient. However, the net effort is overall improved efficiency - 24 mpg compared to 40 mpg EPA. Somehow, they are doing a much better job than the striaght forward gas engines.

[seagullplayer]

As gas prices go up, Harley season gets closer.
Road my Sportster to Church last night, 40+ MPG.
Now that's energy conservation in practice! :cool:

[kewlpack]

I would only ride to & from work in Plano if I was suicidal.

PLANO! Hey - there's a BUNCH of us within 10-20 minutes of each other... we need to do lunch or something one of these days! :mrgreen:

[tom grossheider]

I would find it extremely difficult to pony up that amount of cash for a vehicle. I buy used and trust God to provide. He has never failed to supply any finances needed to repair them. My wife's Dodge Caravan is close to 100k and had the front end rebuilt last year. Drives like new, still cheaper than car payments. I have a 2001 Silverado that I owe about $5k on, don't drive it much since I work at home but we still need 2 vehicles. God will provide, He always does!

[seagullplayer]

My brother calls me tight, but I can tell ya, I wouldn't spend $37K on anything that didn't have window air conditioning and a kitchen. :lol:

I drive a 1988 Chev 4x4 with over 300K miles on it. Yes 300K!
My wife drives a 1993 Jeep with about 150K
My son drives a 93 Torus with 160K

And on a lucky day I get to ride my 95 Sportster.

All paid for, the Lord he does supply.

(I drive 70 miles round trip to work five days a week)

[prscustom24]

The vehicle never gets plugged in to electricity. It does not even have a connection for a plug. All the battery charge comes from the gas engine. I agree, that the braking power conversion is notextremely efficient. However, the net effort is overall improved efficiency - 24 mpg compared to 40 mpg EPA. Somehow, they are doing a much better job than the striaght forward gas engines.

:dunno Can't argue with the numbers, but I gotta think something was traded off for the double conversion plus the storage losses in the batteries. Moot point, since you're not gonna place the order.

[prscustom24]

PLANO! Hey - there's a BUNCH of us within 10-20 minutes of each other... we need to do lunch or something one of these days! :mrgreen:

Absolutely

[Barry]

SAguitar, I like the way you think. Problem around here is the auto drivers who would sooner run you down as yield the right of way. Came home last night from work, got out on the mountain bike. There's a place where the trail crosses a road. Guy in a car tried to tap me deliberately.

I would only ride to & from work in Plano if I was suicidal.

This happens out here near LA, too. A guy I worked with recently is an avid bicyclist. He rides all the time. He always had stories about how some car or truck almost pushed him off the shoulder or cut him off. And another guy I worked with DID actually try to ride his bicycle to work and got knocked down to the pavement by someone who didn't even bother to stop and see if he was okay. :yikes How's that for consideration?

[Crunchyriff]

Reverbb- sounds like those last two freezeplugs are the ones at the back, right in front of the transmission.

Lifter tap? Have you tried a bit of tranny fluid (high detergent) real quick for say, 100 miles or so to see if it's just a bit of sludge that can be cleaned out? If you are down 1 qt, put some atf in there instead, and run it for no more than 100 miles (i'd keep it down to about 50 miles) and then drain your cranckcase & refill. (r&r the filter too)

See if that doesn't help.

[SAguitar]

God has a special place for people who intentionally harm the defenseless.

[stephen]

Lifter tap? Have you tried a bit of tranny fluid (high detergent) real quick for say, 100 miles or so to see if it's just a bit of sludge that can be cleaned out? If you are down 1 qt, put some atf in there instead, and run it for no more than 100 miles (i'd keep it down to about 50 miles) and then drain your cranckcase & refill. (r&r the filter too)


Took the words right outta my mouth! Crunchy is correct!

[seagullplayer]

Lifter tap? Have you tried a bit of tranny fluid (high detergent) real quick for say, 100 miles or so to see if it's just a bit of sludge that can be cleaned out? If you are down 1 qt, put some atf in there instead, and run it for no more than 100 miles (i'd keep it down to about 50 miles) and then drain your cranckcase & refill. (r&r the filter too)


Took the words right outta my mouth! Crunchy is correct!

At least three in agreement here.

When you do the oil change, Lucus makes a great oil additive, sub a bottle of it, for a Qt of oil.
BTW Lucus Oil Products also make the best gas additive on the market. I use it in every engine I own, even the lawnmower!

[reverbbb]

I found this article a few days ago on MSNBC.com. I particularly was enlightened when I read the interactive section near the bottom.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7125875/

[seagullplayer]

I found this article a few days ago on MSNBC.com. I particularly was enlightened when I read the interactive section near the bottom.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7125875/

:cool:

[Crunchyriff]

I should have had this engine rebuilt now that it has 230,000 miles. But I guess I'm being stuborn and not very wise to the long term costs of piece milling the repairs.

Reverbb- if you have oil consumption issues, and have tested the cylinders for compression etc. and the engine is tired, I'd get a GM 'crate engine' for that thing and be done with it. They come with a nice warranty, and are the way to go, bro. (again, what kinda shape is your tranny in?) You might also consider doing the whole powertrain and R&R'ing the tranny too, while you are at it.

That way you aren't "piecemealing" the job, and it will be right, and thorough the first time.

$3,500 for an engine (for example) sure beats $35k+ for a new vehicle.

Off the top of my head, you are looking at @$5k for the engine and tranny.

What kind of shape is the rest of the vehicle in?

[kewlpack]

...if you have oil consumption issues, and have tested the cylinders for compression etc...

I have "chips & salsa" consumption issues... but I'm not sure that's of any help here... \:D/ :popcorn

[stephen]

Heck, a good reputable mechanic might even be able to rebuild what you got for less!

[Crunchyriff]

In all honesty, a good rebuild mech isn't going to be able to touch the value of the GM 'crate engine'...can't compete w/ the labor costs for one. The only other way to save more is to do the rebuild entirely yourself (if you can, and have the means to do so)...and you still won't have any kind of a warranty to back it up if something pukes or goes amiss.

At 230,000 miles, anykind of 'freshening up' of the engine merits doing it right the 1st time, and that means ignoring nothing, and doing a full-ground up rebuild. To do anything less is like taking a shower and then putting on yer dirty chonies afterwards... :shock

"It's only as strong as the weakest link" is never more true than here. Full steam, dip and magnafluxing for starters, and then you see what you have to work with- both the block and the heads. You also have to account for what kind of shape the cylinders are in, and now much you may need to overbore them, or sleeve any of them. It gets rather complex.

Like I said, when you weigh the options, the GM CrateEngines, IMHO is THE way to go, bar-none.

soapbox stowed....

[Teleguy]

Yeah, a 350 inna crate is like what, $1400?

I put $1000 in the last rebuild I did (Ford Econoline 300c.i. six for my son-in-law) and that was 15 years ago!

[reverbbb]

Actually, I think Crunchy already was fairly close with his estimate of $3500. I nearly considered doing the same thing with a '75 3/4 ton Chevy back in 1983. I think they wanted $2500 then.

[Teleguy]

That must be if THEY put it in.

I was wondering about just the motor price?

[Ravindave_3600]

Course, what I want to do is put that engine and about 350 horses into my '76 280Z. At 2600 pounds, that's a pretty nice power/weight ratio!