PDA

View Full Version : Meanwhile... as I continue this silly tone quest.


kewlpack
03-09-2005, 03:29 PM
Let's see - currently I am using a couple of guitars through a BOSS GT-8 into a Fender Stage 1000 (really good SS amp). I've flip-flopped a lot on modelers, looking for the "holy grail" of flexibility and tone... it's been frustrating. I don't think I'm getting closer either...

The Variax 500 opens a lot of things up with the various models but there is something about a few of the models (particularly the tweener settings I was messing with cables and output settings quite a bit last night and A/Bing the results. I found a way to use the GT8 and still keep the dynamics...but it isn't a "perfect" solution (for the $$$), all things considered.

Here's what I learned (with my rig) last night:

Straight into amp: Excellent, punchy, sparkly tone with good pick dynamics.

GT8 4CM (4 cable method), or in front of amp: It appears that any introduction of the GT8 before the amp's preamp takes the dynamic edge off and you lose some sparkle. To be sure you have an enormous amount of flexibility even if you throw the amp out.

Straight into amp, GT8 in FX Loop only for effects (no stomp up front): I believed that this tone chain would yield the same tone loss as the 4CM did because the GT8 is still in the chain. That was not the case. This technique gave me all of the picking dynamics and flexibility of my amp/preamp while also giving me all of the post-preamp effects of the GT8. I can't really use the preamps or OD/DIST stomps (should be before preamp)... though the Wah pedal works just fine behind the preamp on any amp channel.

I think the reason that the picking dynamics and that special something going straight into the amp is retained because once the amp/preamp picks it up, it is amplified and passed through to the effects/gt8 with no loss. I could be wrong - but this sounded like what was happening.

I tried this with the Variax and my Jazzbox. Similar results with the Jazzbox sounding the best.

Now here is the thing that is spinning around inside my head:
- I want to have a variety of OD/DIST in front of my amp for all the obvious reasons.
- I want to maintain the picking dynamics and punch (so the up front pedal cannot affect this much - any pedal will affect it some).
- I want to have a great chorus/flanger in the effects loop (with a variety of types) - again, no tone loss.
- I want to have a great delay after the chorus (with the same conditions as above).

My particular amp has some effects but they come before the effects loop and you can only use one at a time (ARGH Fender!). I've had them all off since introducing the GT8. None of them are stellar except the Ducking Delay and the various reverb types (which come after the effects loop I think - forgot to check). So it is conceivable that I use the Chorus/Phaser/Flange/Vibro on the amp and only add a delay to the loop.

I am considering exchanging the GT8 for the BOSS OD-20, CE-20, and DD-20... my question to you gurus is, because these are dedicated pedals and only doing one thing (OD, Chorus, Delay) will they preserve the original tone better than the GT8?

I realize there are more links in the tone chain and I've not tried this setup before - so that is why I am asking.

If I barter with GC, I might be able to get them to do the exchange and only pay a little difference in price.

Now that I've said all this - I do like the flexibility of the GT8 and all the cool stuff it brings to the table... but I really like hearing the pick/touch dynamics of the guitar - particularly live (recording always seems to steal a little of the soul anyway). So I'm kinda noodling my way through this.

The only thing I'd be concerned with is the OD-20 up front because it may do exactly what the GT8 is doing - killing the tonal dynamics. :roll:

What do you think? Thanks again.

Brad
03-09-2005, 06:00 PM
Nice info kewlpack thanks! It sounds like your close and faily happy with it. While there is a trade off between modeling units and straght ahead into an amp, l am amazed at the quality of the modeled tones and devices coming out hese days. If a POD or V-Amp existed 15 years ago, it would have run $10,000 and been hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Now that they have become somewhat commenplace and prices have dropped, it's easy to become cynical and dismiss all things modeled. I believe it's not going away and it's going to continue to get better. I bought a V-Amp ll a few years ago on a whim. I really had no use for it, but it's turned into a valuable recording and practice tool. Does it sound 100% convincing? No, but it's great for my needs. There is a bit of digital noise when I play, but when other instruments are mixed in, it's virtually undectible. It's not going to replace my amp, but I'm very glad I have it and it serves its purpose well.

While I have not played the electric Variaxe plugged in, I did try one when they first came out unplugged. I did not care for the actual feel and set up. Of course, I'm sure they could be set up to ones specs, but I was turned off by the feel of it out of the box. The sound clips Ive heard have been impressive though. I tried the acoustic variaxe plugged into one of those new Bose systems and had a great deal of fun. The dobro and alternate tunings are what really impressed me. That guitar felt excellent by the way. The feel and playability were excellent.

While I will ( for now anyway ) probably continue with my favorite electric plugged into a good amp, I also embrace new technology. I look at it as a tool to get one where one needs to the most cost effective way. There are always going to be those would not be caught dead with modeling equipment just as there are those who will embrace the technology. I have no beef with either....To each his own. Just as I marvel everytime I see a huge jet get off the ground and fly, I marvel that 32 amp and 16 effets can be stuffed into a little $100 unit. I am very excited to see what's coming down the pike in the modeling world. It will just continue to get better and cheaper. It's really a great time to be a guitar player with the quality, low cost Asian gutiars and low cost modeling technology.

kewlpack
03-09-2005, 06:11 PM
Ya - I admit that the GT8 is remarkable in so many ways. I was just noodling about what might be "better"...

I think I'll keep the GT8 and use it live in the Loop just for all the groovy effects. I can use it for recording and all kinds of other things in the meantime.

After thinking about it more, I don't think the separate stomps will give me any "more" functionality for the $$$. The amp I have has a Fender clean channel (very nice) and two different Drive channels which are probably plenty of overdrive for most humans. :mrgreen:

I'll keep trying to find a way to get the most out of it. I'm probably just missing something somewhere.

MrMike
03-09-2005, 09:43 PM
It's my understanding that Line 6 has the warranty on the Variax set up so that you can put the neck of your choice on the guitar without voiding the warranty. It seems that they were aware that their choice of necks may not be for everybody.

stephen
03-09-2005, 11:10 PM
............. "silly tone quest"?

:yikes

Well, I havent banned anyone on this board yet, .......... :ROFL

Pearly Gator
03-10-2005, 12:59 AM
I've been on that tone quest for 41 years. It's never ending...

Brad
03-10-2005, 05:48 PM
It's all about finding what works for you. Whether that be a Tele into a Twin with no effects or a Variax into a rack full of processing gear. We each have our own styles, wants, needs and what works for one may not be so good for another. The good Lord above made us all with different personalities and that sure comes through in music and our choice of gear.

Personally, I think it's all good. How wonderful to have so many awesome choices to choose from. I don't understand how some people chastise anyone who differs from their choice of gear.

The gear choices for guitar players today simply amaze me. It's all good!

stephen
03-10-2005, 06:13 PM
.............. How wonderful to have so many awesome choices to choose from. ....................

...................The gear choices for guitar players today simply amaze me. It's all good!

But is it just me, or is everyone (the new groups with new record deals), sounding the same?

I agree with ya, so many different flavors to choose from, but the "new" vanilla seems to be a heavily scooped, radically overdriven, punch in the face now-a-days. Its startin to get hard to tell people apart.

prscustom24
03-14-2005, 05:56 PM
This seems as good a place as any for my first post on this forum. . .

In four and a half decades as a student of the guitar, sorting through all manner of guitars, amps, stomp boxes, rack effects, et al, I've come to this conclusion: if the pickups are Alnico-based, and if the speakers are, too, then almost anything in between will sound great.

The pickups in my Tele and Strat are Kinman's, and for me, they're the answer to every question that's ever been asked about Fender tone.

My pair of Tonemaster cabs have had the ceramic 80W Celestion Classic Leads removed and replaced with Ted Weber's 30W Alnico Blue Dogs.

I haven't sounded this good since the '60s.

What's currently in between:

Shure ULX Pro UHF Wireless
Preamps: Digitech GSP-2101 paralleled w/ Tech 21 PSA-1
Pwr Amp: Marshall 9100 -- dual 50W monoblocs

If anybody really likes the sound of a high-power ceramic 12" guitar speaker, I've got 4 available.

kewlpack
03-14-2005, 06:07 PM
Welcome to the forum Mike (or PRS!). I'll keep AlNicos in mind if I ever get enough money to put into more stuff.

Have a look around and jump on in. :)

kewlpack
03-16-2005, 07:17 PM
I was gonna hang onto the Variax... but a funny thing happened to me last night as I was at Guitar Center to watch our very own Reverbbb compete in a guitar competition there...

I've been obsessing over the whole dynamics issue, so I did a little more A/Bing last night between the Variax and the Jazzbox.

The dynamics degraded MORE with the Variax than with the Jazzbox. The mojo of the Jazzbox held up a lot more whether I was going into the GT8 or direct to the amp.

I hate having a $800 guitar that I don't like to play (well really, how it sounds) sitting around. So while I had the 30-day Guitar Center exchange possibility I began to let my mind wander...(uh oh!)

Last night I was hanging out at the GC competition and was glancing around at the various used guitars. I noticed an oddly shaped axe out of the corner of my eye and had do a doubletake - it was a Parker P-38 (essentially a Korean version of the NiteFly bolt on series) in near mint condition...

I decided to break away from the competition to go into the soundroom and plugged it in. I don't have to tell you that it sounded VERY good. All kinds of tones and the piezo mix adds a really fat boost (pretty cool). The neck was fantastic. The body is slightly arch-top with translucent red on a nice Ash body. The DYNAMICS from the Parker BLOW AWAY the Variax. It has a lot of mojo in there. I think I found my replacement axe! I've wanted a Parker but the setneck high end ones are just way out of my league and budget.

Today at lunch, I exchanged the Variax 500 for: Parker P-38, some chrome knobs, a set of locking tuners, new strings, a decent hardshell case, and "The Guitar Grimoire: Progressions & Improvisation" Book and DVD.

All in all I'd say I just got a WHOLE lot of bang for the buck. I cannot wait to get it home, set it up, and PLUG IN!!!

The only non-mint stuff on the axe was the knobs and the Wilkinson tremolo...just needs a good cleaning and I'm replacing the black knobs with chrome ones. No heavy wear and tear to speak of otherwise. Also I'm putting some good locking tuners on it. The neck and body are pretty much mint.

I just couldn't pass it up. A decent Parker guitar for a very reasonable price. w00t! I looked around to check prices on new ones as well as used and for the condition, felt the GC price was fair (considering all the other added stuff I got for NO out of pocket cash).

I have taken one major component of digital modeling out of my tone chain in order to recover some of the mojo that got lost when used in conjunction with the GT8. As ProToneTools said, there were probably just too many "digital" things going on.

There is really something about having REAL pickups. I didn't think it would be a big deal, but when you play... you notice it.

I'll report how this new axe works out - I'm all giddy!!! w00t!

stephen
03-16-2005, 08:03 PM
... but a funny thing happened to me last night as I was at Guitar Center to watch our very own Reverbbb compete in a guitar competition there...



OK it may be for another forum, but How'd he do?!

kewlpack
03-16-2005, 08:10 PM
Well - he came in 4th out of 13 contestants! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :dance: :dance: :dance:

I'd say that be purdee good! It was fun too. I noticed that most of the "shredders" had a hard time staying with the rhythm - and key (eeek) sometimes. The folks who with the tasty, slightly slower chops did MUCH better.

wishus
03-16-2005, 08:30 PM
Man, kewl, 3 guitars in 3 months? :lol:

The Parker sounds sweet! I've always liked them.

kewlpack
03-16-2005, 08:33 PM
Man, kewl, 3 guitars in 3 months? :lol:

Believe me... I know I know... I almost hate to mention gear-swaps now... :crazy :crazy :crazy I said a prayer today to ask God to help me just stop and be completely content.

I already have more than what I need without guitars or junk... I'm thankful God lets me play though - very thankful.