Presbyterian assembly votes to drop gay clergy ban

[Micter]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080628/ap_on_re/rel_presbyterians_gays

How in the world do these folks think that God is glorified in sin?

[mattd]

i have a friend who thinks that the Bible does not condone it, but does not say enough against it to convince her that it should not happen. i disagree. but i think the main thing here is that they are letting sexually active single people become ministers. getting more liberal by the minute...

[Kitty]

Perhaps this is one way that many of the denominations will finally die out -- people leaving in disagreement by the thousands.

I just wish it could all play out less about judgment and more about rescue. People imprisoned in the lie of homosexuality are the walking wounded. They do not need our judgment, they need our love.

We (the church) don't treat people struggling with other types of sin and spiritual bondage in the same shameful way that we treat people struggling with sexual sin. Instead we reach out and try to help those others be lifted out of their struggle and bondage. Not so with homosexuals, although my hope is to see that change in my lifetime. I see little signs here and there.

Of course, no other group of people with a particular sin struggle are lobbying for special rights either. "Gay pride" kind of says a lot, doesn't it.
"Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed."
1 Samuel 2:3 NIV

Kitty

[Wally]

I am a Presbyterian, but please don't confuse me with these folks! I am a member of the Presbyterian Church in America, a small conservative denomination which broke away from the Presbyterian Church in the USA about 35 years ago over increasingly liberal theology and practice..... the church in the headlines is of course the Presbyterian Church in the USA.

[stephen]

We know your awright Wally!

Kitty, agree with you whole-heartedly!

And Matt, I agree with you as well: lets not break it down into what type of sexual activity it is, but rather, that it is sinful sexual activity whether it be homosexuality, promiscuity, pornography addiction, addicted to prostitutes, whatever: Its all sin, it all needs God's healing touch, and we need to show love to the sinner, and hate the sin.

[Micter]

Perhaps this is one way that many of the denominations will finally die out -- people leaving in disagreement by the thousands.

I just wish it could all play out less about judgment and more about rescue. People imprisoned in the lie of homosexuality are the walking wounded. They do not need our judgment, they need our love.

We (the church) don't treat people struggling with other types of sin and spiritual bondage in the same shameful way that we treat people struggling with sexual sin. Instead we reach out and try to help those others be lifted out of their struggle and bondage. Not so with homosexuals, although my hope is to see that change in my lifetime. I see little signs here and there.

Of course, no other group of people with a particular sin struggle are lobbying for special rights either. "Gay pride" kind of says a lot, doesn't it.
"Do not keep talking so proudly or let your mouth speak such arrogance,
for the LORD is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed."
1 Samuel 2:3 NIV

Kitty

The way I see it Kitty, we need to judge the sin and bring restoration to the sinner. So many people these days don't want to offend anyone. Offend me so I can repent is what I'm all about. I hate sin in my lfe as well as in the lives of others. If we don't judge sin then how will it be dealt with?

[Kitty]

If we don't judge sin then how will it be dealt with?
By the conviction of the Holy Spirit, of course. In Christians as well as in the as-yet unsaved.

But you tell a person entrapped in a sexual sin that they have to get themselves out of it before being acceptable to God, and you've just pretty much slammed the door of the Kingdom in their face. I say it again, they need RESCUE, not judgment. The Holy Spirit is capable of dealing with them after they take those first few steps of placing their trust in Him.

Kitty

[LesStrat]

Kitty is a wise woman.

[Crunchyriff]

By the conviction of the Holy Spirit, of course. In Christians as well as in the as-yet unsaved.

But you tell a person entrapped in a sexual sin that they have to get themselves out of it before being acceptable to God, and you've just pretty much slammed the door of the Kingdom in their face. I say it again, they need RESCUE, not judgment. The Holy Spirit is capable of dealing with them after they take those first few steps of placing their trust in Him.

Kitty

+1. Of course, this need not apply to those who presume worthy for a position in minstry- they should know their bible and not edit-out that which inconveniences them.

I have no problem with homosexuals attending church- I ENCOURAGE IT!
But I do have a problem with allegedly redeemed believers who turn a blind eye to their sin, and expect God to condone and endorse it while they continue in a sinful lifestyle... and demand positions of leadership within the church.

I don't care whether you are talking about unrepentant liars, thieves, swindlers, rapists, murderers, fornicators, unrepentant adulterers etc... these folks who have been told what is right and what is wrong by God's word, and refuse to repent.

Quite frankly we are NOT to judge them; then again we are not to allow them in positions of leadership unrepentant.

[Micter]

By the conviction of the Holy Spirit, of course. In Christians as well as in the as-yet unsaved.

But you tell a person entrapped in a sexual sin that they have to get themselves out of it before being acceptable to God, and you've just pretty much slammed the door of the Kingdom in their face. I say it again, they need RESCUE, not judgment. The Holy Spirit is capable of dealing with them after they take those first few steps of placing their trust in Him.

Kitty

I see many people come to the knowledge of Christ because their sin is confronted. If someone is in bondage the truth will set them free. Whom the son sets free is free indeed. I can confront sin with love.

IE:

Bro, if you'll be honest with yourself the lifestyle you are living doesn't fill that void inside of you. Sin is a bondage and if you allow God to change you he will take the sin out of your life and replace it with his spirit.

I made a judgement as to the affect sin had in the person's life but showed the way out.

"The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus"

Maybe I wasn't clear in my previous post. :yikes:

[Crunchyriff]

Micter bro you've got a big heart and we know you better than that! Sin does have to be confronted in love, but the Holy Spirit is the one that does it- whether we are given the unction to move fwd in that, or if He does it himself within the heart of the sinner. Every case is different in method, but the message of conviction in love, remains the same.

The problem is, too much of the church has been 'condemning'. That is NOT our job.

In a few weeks or so, I'd like to address this particular issue in another thread, as God is cooking up something HUGE that I cannot discuss yet.... but I will as soon as I can.

God is a positively AWESOME GOD!

[Micter]

Micter bro you've got a big heart and we know you better than that! Sin does have to be confronted in love, but the Holy Spirit is the one that does it- whether we are given the unction to move fwd in that, or if He does it himself within the heart of the sinner. Every case is different in method, but the message of conviction in love, remains the same.

The problem is, too much of the church has been 'condemning'. That is NOT our job.

In a few weeks or so, I'd like to address this particular issue in another thread, as God is cooking up something HUGE that I cannot discuss yet.... but I will as soon as I can.

God is a positively AWESOME GOD!

It's turn or burn sinner! Very rarely works. I had no idea what love was so judgement had an affect on me. God's love meant absolutely nothing! Going to hell scared me into repenting. I'm not normal by any stretch of the imagination though.

[Kitty]

I'm not normal by any stretch of the imagination though.
To quote Iago from Aladdin, "Oh now there's a big surprise. :wasntme:

[stephen]

To quote Iago from Aladdin, "Oh now there's a big surprise. :wasntme:

Kitty beat me too it.

[LesStrat]

Lots of wisdom 'round these parts.

[ptrallan01]

Said Judge not lest ye be judged in one part of the Gospel and judge righteous judgement in another part of the Gospel. Both are correct and not in contradiction. Righteous judgment judges the circumstance not the person. An example, if I walk down the middle of main street naked that's wrong, but if I stand in my shower with the water running fully dressed that's wrong.

Every sin is an affront to God and needs to be addressed. The method of address is dictated by the Holy Spirit. The book of Jude tells us that some we reach through harshness and others through gentillity.

As sins go Homosexuality did not make God's top 10 hit list (see Exodus 20 or Dueteronomy 5). That doesn't mean it is a lesser sin, they will all get you sent to hell without repentance.

The manner of addressing it with the individual needs to be prayed about, as with any other sin or person.

It is sad to see that the "church" (small c intentional) is moving so far from scripture but we were warned that there would come a time that there would be a form of Godliness that denied the power thereof. We are reaching that time.

Love homosexuals, prostitutes, adulterers, and everyone else, forgive them because there was a time when we were numbered among them. But do not choose them to lead you until they have been converted or they will lead you astray.

Love always

Peter

[Crunchyriff]

Very well said, Peter. Good to hear from you, brother!!

[jrc]

As sins go Homosexuality did not make God's top 10 hit list (see Exodus 20 or Dueteronomy 5). That doesn't mean it is a lesser sin, they will all get you sent to hell without repentance.

Peter

actually ... it did.. that would be sex outside of marriage, which, biblically is between a man and woman, which would make it adultery, yes?

[Micter]

actually ... it did.. that would be sex outside of marriage, which, biblically is between a man and woman, which would make it adultery, yes?


depending on if either or both are married to females it would be adultery or fornication if neither were married. Either way, the sin is a perversion of God's natural order and those that practice such an abomination are in danger of spending eternity separated from God. It is however no different that committing fornication.

[stephen]

It is however no different that committing fornication.

Agreed. Like wise with adultry. If someone has a homosexual affair, its still adultry, just with a homosexual perversion.

Sin is sin.

[Crunchyriff]

God does not grade sin on the curve, but man does.

It all has its reward in eternal death.

[Micter]

I think that the church (in general) has a problem with homosexuality more because of the politics involved than that of the sinfulness.

[Crunchyriff]

Could be. I certainly have a problem with the leverage in much of that agenda.

I don't have a problem with the homosexuals being treated equally as basic human beings- they SHOULD BE. I do not believe they should be allowed to marry, however. It is not biblical.

What I DO have a problem with is hate crimes legislation in general, along with those folks demanding their lifestyles be taught in public schools.

The whole hate crimes legislation thing in the USA is an absolute farce and it is divisive, & it intrinsically sets up classes of people that are 'more important, or valuable' than another's in our land of the free & home of the brave.

If you tie up some kid to the back of a truck and drag him down the road until he's dead, there should be stiff consequences no matter what his sexual orientation, color, religion, or nationality was. It's murder of another human being. There should be no discriminating between those issues to measure the penalty due by the law.

This is along the lines of stiffer sentences applied to crimes against LE folks. It is divisive, and I believe it's unconstitutional. ( No offense to my LE brethren here) It is telling a prospective murderer in the USA than one guy's life is worth more (or less) than others because one wears a badge and one doesn't. (after all, the ones NOT wearing a badge pay the salaries of the ones that DO wear one); Or if they are a certain color, or believe a certain way. This is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

I will confess this: when I was much younger, due to what happened to me in my youth, I despised these people for the simple fact of what was done to me- my first known exposure to folks who live this way, violated me personally. I never once did anything to these people over the years, but I was passionately angry towards them. But not all of those people do to others what some (God forgive them) did to me as a youth. I know the Lord was not pleased at what was in my heart towards them. So I carried that anger for some years until it was put under the blood of Jesus and He took that anger away. The bottom line is, we ALL are sinners.

So anyway, I have a deep compassion for the lost- homosexual or not; but I do not believe they deserve greater protection or justice than others. It goes against the Bible, and against the US Constitution/Bill of Rights.

[Micter]

The funny thing is it is considered hate speach to speak against homosexuality but it is completely acceptable to bad mouth Christians for our standing up for holiness. Does anyone else see the hypocrisy? Not that I really care because if I am standing on the word of God I will be hated according to the Bible, anyway.

[stephen]

The hate crime agenda people are nothing more than Moral Relativists, or pawns of moral relativism.

Moral Relativism preaches tolerance, but in fact it is about intolerance. If you disagree with them in any way, your are deemed intolerant, and need to be branded as such.

Moral Relativism is more about censorship, than freedom of liberties and freedom of speech.

If you look closely at the tenants of Moral Relativism, you will find that the perfect Moral Relativist is a serial killer.

[stephen]

Gleaned from an article (http://www.moral-relativism.com/):

William McGuffey, author of the McGuffey's Readers, which were the mainstay of America's public school system from 1836 till the 1920's, wrote:

"Erase all thought and fear of God from a community, and selfishness and sensuality would absorb the whole man." Where do you think the world is heading today?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Moral relativism has steadily been accepted as the primary moral philosophy of modern society, a culture that was previously governed by a "Judeo-Christian" view of morality. While these "Judeo-Christian" standards continue to be the foundation for civil law, most people hold to the concept that right or wrong are not absolutes, but can be determined by each individual. Morals and ethics can be altered from one situation, person, or circumstance to the next. Essentially, moral relativism says that anything goes, because life is ultimately without meaning. Words like "ought" and "should" are rendered meaningless. In this way, moral relativism makes the claim that it is morally neutral.

In describing her view on morality, the President of Planned Parenthood Federation of America once stated, "…teaching morality doesn't mean imposing my moral values on others. It means sharing wisdom, giving reasons for believing as I do - and then trusting others to think and judge for themselves." She claims to be morally neutral, yet her message is clearly intended to influence the thinking of others… an intention that is not, in fact, neutral.

Evidence that moral relativism is seen as more "fair" or "neutral" than a "hardline" stance on morality is seen in a 2002 column from Fox News analyst Bill O'Reilly, who asked "Why is it wrong to be right?" In his article, O'Reilly cites recent Zogby poll findings regarding what is being taught in American universities. Studies indicate 75% of American college professors currently teach that there is no such thing as right and wrong. Rather, they treat the questions of good and evil as relative to "individual values and cultural diversity." The problem with this, according to O'Reilly, is that "they see the world not as it is, but as they want it to be. And annoying questions about moral absolutes and unacceptable behavior are usually left unanswered."

[ptrallan01]

I do understand it as an outgrowth of our injustice system. There have been too many juries over the last two centuries who would not apply justice properly if you were not part of the dominant culture of this country. In an attempt to correct this or to allow for some measure of justice and recompense hate crime legislation found its way into our penal codes. Like all things legalistic it doesn't work.

When we can judge righteous judgment and say that all murder is murder and that anyone assaulted is due justice regardless of religion, color, sexual perversion or idiocy then we won't need it. But the heart of man is wicked and we will not give justice to those we despise. While we may think we live in a color blind society, we don't. While we may think we have the fairest justice system in the world, we don't.

If you want to change this the next time you get a jury duty notice please go willingly and listen to the cases prayerfully and judge righteously based on the facts and the circumstances. For if we let unbelievers make the decisions there can be no justice.

[Crunchyriff]

I would also like to add that I wouldn't knowingly appoint an unrepentant thief, whoremonger, liar, or murderer to a church leadership position, either. Yet many do.

Peter you make an excellent point that must be strongly considered & taken to heart, IMHO. Many times culture over-rides justice. This should not be.

[Micter]

I would also like to add that I wouldn't knowingly appoint an unrepentant thief, whoremonger, liar, or murderer to a church leadership position, either. Yet many do.

Peter you make an excellent point that must be strongly considered & taken to heart, IMHO. Many times culture over-rides justice. This should not be.

Oh ya, there are too many people in positions of ministry that are unqualified biblically to even start counting. The issue becomes one of money all too often. "we have to put brother blow mind into a position of leadership. Do you know how much he gives to the church?" PFT, if they don't demonstrate godly attributes leave them right where they are. Starting with ME!

[LesStrat]

werd

[ptrallan01]

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/worship-service-players/116455-did-i-get-gig.html#post1364402

[jrc]

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/worship-service-players/116455-did-i-get-gig.html#post1364402

Dogma? do these guys read The Bible at all?!? Wow ... does 'kingdom' mean anything?

[Micter]

Obviously, the church in question is along the secular humanism lines and not Christianity.

[stephen]

Yeah, I saw that post over at the TDPRI. Brian Krashpad is a member here, but hasnt posted in a very long time. I dont know if its a matter of this forum is too slow, or there is no compromise on the Word here. I'm not accusing, just thinking out loud and postulating................

I could not be a part of a church where someone in leadership is openly having an affair, doing drugs, shacking up, violently assaults people, or practices homosexuality. here may be "some" churches that hire professional P&W Team leaders, but, to compromise that much...........

I could not be a member in a church like that, simply because the Word of God is specific, and those that practice such things (and living a homosexual lifestyle is "practicing" that), will not make it into heaven, and if they wont be making it into heaven, they are on the side of the enemy, and if they are on the side of the enemy, they will begin to tear down the tenements of the church from within.

[LesStrat]

Werd.

[Crunchyriff]

"I could not be a part of a church where someone in leadership is openly having an affair, doing drugs, shacking up, violently assaults people, or practices homosexuality."

+1. This is blatant, unrepentant sin.

" I could not be a member in a church like that, simply because the Word of God is specific, and those that practice such things (and living a homosexual lifestyle is "practicing" that), will not make it into heaven, and if they wont be making it into heaven, they are on the side of the enemy, and if they are on the side of the enemy, they will begin to tear down the tenements of the church from within."

Dead-on. Of course, you know (doing my best Daffy impression...) "THIS MEANS WAR!" You are VERY narrow minded. Have you been told that lately? :D

[jrc]

You are VERY narrow minded. Have you been told that lately? :D

I have - and it's 'dis-PIC-able' ( wiping chin) :tomato_food:

[Kitty]

http://www.spurgeon.org/images/pyromaniac/TeamPyro/txts.jpg

[tom grossheider]

I don't stop in here too often, but couldn't resist reading this thread. Homosexuals must understand that they will not go to hell because of being a homosexual, they will suffer God's eternal judgement because they have broken God's Law. When they understand their lost state before a Just and Holy God, only then can the mercy of Jesus Christ be applied to their repentant heart. Anything else easily results in a false conversion.

[Crunchyriff]

Tom!!! Long time no hear. How cool of you to come in!

:)

How are you doing? Any praise reports? Prayer requests? Please don't be a stranger! So good to hear from you!

:yeah:

[tom grossheider]

Tom!!! Long time no hear. How cool of you to come in!

:)

How are you doing? Any praise reports? Prayer requests? Please don't be a stranger! So good to hear from you!

:yeah:

I'm doing well enough, thanks for asking. Life has taken some very strange curves in the last few years, but God has been good. I think the Son is starting to shine again through some of those dark clouds, if you know what I mean. Still playing bass and guitar on the worship team. Have a 2 year old granddaughter too. Thanks for the warm welcome, it means a lot. I'll hang around if nobody minds...

[Crunchyriff]

Pull up a chair!

BTW Kitty has been trying to get Stephen to mind, but thats another subject entirely...

:wasntme:

[stephen]

I don't stop in here too often, but couldn't resist reading this thread. Homosexuals must understand that they will not go to hell because of being a homosexual, they will suffer God's eternal judgement because they have broken God's Law. When they understand their lost state before a Just and Holy God, only then can the mercy of Jesus Christ be applied to their repentant heart. Anything else easily results in a false conversion.

Tom, that was eloquent and precise. I wish I could formulate a succinct paragraph as well as you!

Bravo!

And glad too see ya drop by brother!

[stephen]

I'm doing well enough, thanks for asking. Life has taken some very strange curves in the last few years, but God has been good. I think the Son is starting to shine again through some of those dark clouds, if you know what I mean. Still playing bass and guitar on the worship team. Have a 2 year old granddaughter too. Thanks for the warm welcome, it means a lot. I'll hang around if nobody minds...

Crunchy's got the chairs, I got some ice tea, and where all gatherin on Kitty's porch to sit a while, and watch the people walk on by, the sun set, and listen to the crickets a chirpin!

I think theres a couple of geetars on the porch as well, and I know Kitty will have a couple Penny Whistles ready to go................

[Crunchyriff]

Don't forget to bring your avatar, Tom! :)

[tom grossheider]

Don't forget to bring your avatar, Tom! :)

Avatar fueled up and ready to roll. I'd like some porch pickin' and hangin' out. Soothes the hurts and warms the heart. You guys are good folks, thanks.

[ptrallan01]

Good to see you round. If'n ya feel like a change of pace or just a place to rest from your worries, your more than welcome to make that two hour drive north and sit a spell.

Peter

[tom grossheider]

Good to see you round. If'n ya feel like a change of pace or just a place to rest from your worries, your more than welcome to make that two hour drive north and sit a spell.

Peter

Thanks Peter, that really means a lot. I appreciate your friendship in Christ, you're a good brother.