re: tattoos

[mattd]

this is a reply to mike from a topic of mine in the off topic area:


Mike, lets read that verse in context, specifically the verse before it. (i'm using the ESV translation if you are wondering).

Lev 19:27

You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.


so basically the command before it is telling you not to shave. so i'm betting that you've broken that commandment before unless you're a member of ZZ top. also, a key theme to pick up on in verse 28 is that you are commanded to not tattoo your body for the dead. this is saying to not do it to mourn for the dead. i want to say that it was a custom for some of the people around israel to cut themselves at a funeral to mourn for some reason, but don't quote me on that because i don't remember where i read it and can't find it now.

I would also like to point out an arguement from Paul in galatians 5. he's talking about circumscision, but i think this relates to the tattoo arguement as well. Paul's basic message here is that it's not what you look like that saves you, or more specifically, a little cut in the right place doesn't save you. he wishes that those who did believe that would just castrate themselves (V. 12). with that said, i think this arguement can relate, that it's not what you have or don't have on your body, it's your relationship with Christ that does save you.



now obviously this doesn't give me freedom to get anything i want. if i get out and got a tattoo of a naked lady on my back, i think this would go against another of God's principles, unquestionably. but as far as what i got, in my eyes it's just a picture of Christ, and it's no better or worse than if we had the same thing hanging on your living room wall.

[MikeW]

Matt,

Reading your explanation was very helpful. I had not thought about doing it for the dead.

As I mentioned I wasn't trying to be judgemental. Having lived in upstate New York I traveled in or near New York City a number of times and saw many Orthodox Jewish men who practiced those customs.

[Teleguy]

This is an excellent discussion (because of love).

Where in Upstate NY? I'm originally from Schenectady, but spent plenty of time in NYC.

[Brian]

this is a reply to mike from a topic of mine in the off topic area:
Mike, lets read that verse in context, specifically the verse before it. (i'm using the ESV translation if you are wondering).
Lev 19:27
You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard... so basically the command before it is telling you not to shave... I'm not sure that's enirely accurate. Much of what scripture tells us is lost if we don't understand the culture of the people it was written to instruct. The classic commentators Matthew Henry, Wycliffe, Adam Clarke, Keil and Delitzsch, Barnes, etc (do they teach those anymore?) unanimously agree that these were likely references to certain pagan customs, several of them connected with magic and to honor idols, therefore forbidden to the Israelites. Probably considered contemporary and stylish (cool), but culturally associated with paganism (leaven anyone? just a little bit?). And for many struggling with their life in the wilderness this would have been a reminder of life in the breadbasket of Egypt, rather than trusting God daily for provision. Like Lot's wife in Gen 45 they were not to look back. Israel was to be set apart...

in my eyes it's just a picture of Christ, and it's no better or worse than if we had the same thing hanging on your living room wall.Under the New Covenant as in 1Cor 8 does it come down to the intent of the heart, and whether it causes others to stumble?

btw for me personally, uh uh.

[mattd]

regarding whether it causes others to stumble... I was thinking about that when i was deciding on a location. it's in a spot where i can easily show it off if i want to, yet is hidden most of the time. this way nobody knows unless i want them to.

[Wally]

Here are both verses:

Leviticus 19:27-28 (English Standard Version)
English Standard Version (ESV)


27 You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard. 28 You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the LORD.

Every commentator seems to have a different take of the meaning of these passages - some think that all of the restrictions mentioned in these two verses are specifically in the context of doing these things as an act of mourning (like the pagans). Others read it as don't ever round off the hair on your temples, mar the edge of your beard, or get a tattoo (in any context) and don't cut your body as an act of mourning.

I guess the bigger question is whether these passages still apply to us - we know that we violate many of the Levitical restrictions on a daily basis.

Just to make things a little more difficult, it seems you could read Isaiah 44:5 as supporting tattoos...

Isaiah 44:5 (English Standard Version)
English Standard Version (ESV)

5(A) This one will say, 'I am the LORD’s,'
another will call on the name of Jacob,
and another will write on his hand, 'The LORD’s,'
and name himself by the name of Israel."

[Micter]

Did Jesus get Tatoos? Did he advocate getting Tatoos? I want to be like Jesus!

[Wally]

Did Jesus get Tatoos? Did he advocate getting Tatoos? I want to be like Jesus!

I agree with you - and to be clear, I am not advocating tattoos nor do I have any.

[Kitty]

Did Jesus get Tatoos? Did he advocate getting Tatoos? I want to be like Jesus!
Did Jesus play electric guitar? ;)

I'm with Brian on this... so much of the Old Testament Law just gets completely misunderstood by us, and is a call out of heathen or pagan practices of the time.

[Micter]

Did Jesus play electric guitar? ;)

I'm with Brian on this... so much of the Old Testament Law just gets completely misunderstood by us, and is a call out of heathen or pagan practices of the time.

He might not have played electric guitar but he has annointed me to. LOL

[Crunchyriff]

Did Jesus play electric guitar? ;)

I'm with Brian on this... so much of the Old Testament Law just gets completely misunderstood by us, and is a call out of heathen or pagan practices of the time.
I am completely convinced that the idea of the electric guitar came from the Lord!
:D

Back on track though, so much of 'things of today' that are considered hip, fashionable or trendy in the world view has their roots in blatant idol worship/paganism in ancient times, and what folks don't realize is those spirits are still alive and well... and waiting to be served. Personally, I want nothing to do with any of them.

I've been getting quite an education in these specific matters in my studies lately- it's pretty shocking and eye-opening.

[Teleguy]

For myself only, it comes down to this: What was/is the heart of God on the matter?

I realize the Levitical Law has been fulfilled and superceded, and I also realize that I violate many of the 613 every day.
Also, in "our" culture we have chosen to ignore many Biblical laws, as well as change the enforcement of many of our civil laws.

It comes down to deals I have made with the Lord once I have become aware of His heart on a matter in the Word, or in private communion with Him.

These become matters of PERSONAL doctrine and, if I wish to share with the body, public stands for MYSELF.

I think this is a wonderful site, and a truly remarkable discussion (so far).:clap:

[Crunchyriff]

Jesus LOVES people with tatoos!

[Kitty]

He might not have played electric guitar but he has annointed me to. LOL
I was waiting to see how you'd wiggle out of that one. lol

[Crunchyriff]

I guarantee you that all talent and wisdom comes from God alone; in that light I would offer than Jesus can most likely shred us all off the floor. :)

[MikeW]

Did Jesus play electric guitar? ;)


Maybe He played an acoustic. :)

David sure did. :yeah:

Teleguy,

I lived in a small town called Sidney. Between Binghamton and Oneonta. Born in Yonkers and lived on Long Island till my parents moved upstate when I was a kid. A loooooooooong time ago.

My daugher attended collage in Nyack down near the city so we visited a lot.

[Micter]

I guarantee you that all talent and wisdom comes from God alone; in that light I would offer than Jesus can most likely shred us all off the floor. :)
Being that he created music I'll bet you're right!

[Kitty]

I have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus has a million times more talent and creativity than I am able to even imagine.

I'm just saying you can't say a tattoo is a bad idea because Jesus never got a tattoo nor advocated getting one, and you want to be like HIM -- and then turn right around and load your electric-powered guitar amp up in your gasoline-powered car and drive to your sound-amplified worship service in your 2,000-seat sanctuary. Jesus never did any of those things either, and yet we have no problem with them.

Just to clarify, I don't have any tattoos and my personal opinion is that they're a bad idea. But I'm not even going to pretend it's for a spiritual reason -- it's my opinion and obviously there are people here who will disagree with me. No biggie.

Kitty

[Micter]

I have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus has a million times more talent and creativity than I am able to even imagine.

I'm just saying you can't say a tattoo is a bad idea because Jesus never got a tattoo nor advocated getting one, and you want to be like HIM -- and then turn right around and load your electric-powered guitar amp up in your gasoline-powered car and drive to your sound-amplified worship service in your 2,000-seat sanctuary. Jesus never did any of those things either, and yet we have no problem with them.

Just to clarify, I don't have any tattoos and my personal opinion is that they're a bad idea. But I'm not even going to pretend it's for a spiritual reason -- it's my opinion and obviously there are people here who will disagree with me. No biggie.

Kitty

The point you are missing is tattoos were around in Jesus day and electric guitars weren't. I can very easly say Jesus wouldn't have a tattoo because it is against the law he came to fulfill. We do have grace and freedom in Christ. No one is going to hell because of a tattoo!

[mattd]

here's a link i found that can explain what the Bible says about it better than i can, if anybody is still interested in it.

http://www.religioustattoos.net/Bible_Support/index.php

[LesStrat]

Uh, not to nitpick, but do you think the site might have a particular bias towards one viewpoint?

[Kitty]

The point you are missing is....
You're right dude, there is grace and freedom in Christ, and this is not a salvation issue. The point I'm trying to make is, if you say you don't have a tattoo because you're sure Jesus didn't have one, and you want to be like him, then you are inferring that people who DO have a tattoo must NOT want to be like Jesus.

It may not be what you said, and it is very likely NOT what you meant at all. But that's what comes across in an oblique way.

Kitty

[LesStrat]

I thought about offering a study of the passages related to this issue. I have numerous resources that I could use. Yet, my trusty study Bible is remarkably silent on this verse from Leviticus, and it usually offers at least a 'note' on a passage.

Here's my offering to you in a simple question:

How does this help me with my daily quest for holiness?

I would recommend applying that principle to everything we do, INCLUDING the purchasing of music gear.

[stephen]

Just my two cents:

I think that the majority of the "tattoo" fad today is about the glorification of the flesh, or body. Its trendy to get ones self "inked", and it even matters as to who's doing the inking. Some of the "tattoo'd" wear them proudly, and display them with pride. But there are some that keep it to themselves.

A big trend in tattoo's lately are guardian angels. Many say its for "Protection" or a reminder of "their" angel. Hmmmm? Angel worship anyone?

Another trend is a memorial type tattoo to a deceased friend or family member. I can see the reason behind it, because many cannot get over the loss of someone close to them. I'm not saying I necessarily agree, I just understand it.

But the trend that seems to be growing is those that are addicted to getting inked. They look at themselves as one big canvas to display before the whole world. This one I just dont get.

Is tattooing a sin? Could be, but in the same way as eating is not a sin, but gluttony is. Should a Christian get inked? I dunno. I think its between you and God.

Just my ramblings, opinions and thoughts.

[mattd]

Uh, not to nitpick, but do you think the site might have a particular bias towards one viewpoint?



yup...they support mine, which is why i posted it. ;):D


but seriously, i think the site is accurate from what i've read. i think that article does a good job explaining the Bible's viewpoint on the subject.

i agree with your question about the pursuit of holiness, that should be the question we ask in everything we do. my answer would be that this sets me apart even more from the world. it gives me a chance to explain to unbelievers the symbolism of my tattoo and why i got it.

[mattd]

Just my two cents:


Another trend is a memorial type tattoo to a deceased friend or family member. I can see the reason behind it, because many cannot get over the loss of someone close to them. I'm not saying I necessarily agree, I just understand it.

.


when i see something like that i wonder if that's what leviticus is speaking about when it says "don't tattoo yourself for the dead"? I'm inclined to think no, based on some of the commentary i've read, but it has made me think at times.

[LesStrat]

Aside: I have expressly requested of my better half that there be no tattoos, window stickers, highway crosses, t-shirts, or any other such "memorial" when I'm gone.

I understand the point; I just find it morbid...ESPECIALLY coming from Christians.

[Micter]

You're right dude, there is grace and freedom in Christ, and this is not a salvation issue. The point I'm trying to make is, if you say you don't have a tattoo because you're sure Jesus didn't have one, and you want to be like him, then you are inferring that people who DO have a tattoo must NOT want to be like Jesus.

It may not be what you said, and it is very likely NOT what you meant at all. But that's what comes across in an oblique way.

Kitty

You are mistaken. I didn't try to inferr anything.

[stephen]

I have to vouch for micter here. He most likely doesnt understand the concept of infer, much less how to spell it.

Gee, I guess its a good thing he isnt a tattoo artist. I could see it now:

Customer: I want a refund!
micter: Why, I gave you what you wanted; A hot-rod with "Born too be Wild" underneath it.
Customer: Well you got the hot-rod right, but it says, "Born too be Mild!"
micter: No it doesnt!
Customer: Yes it does!
micter: Lt me see.
(looking)
micter: How about 50% off..............

[Strat-tastic]

I'd ask for the other 50% too because it didn't say 'Born to be Wild'

:poke:

[Kitty]

You are mistaken. I didn't try to inferr anything.
That's what I said:
"It may not be what you said, and it is very likely NOT what you meant at all. But that's what comes across in an oblique way."

[Micter]

I have to vouch for micter here. He most likely doesnt understand the concept of infer, much less how to spell it.

Gee, I guess its a good thing he isnt a tattoo artist. I could see it now:

Customer: I want a refund!
micter: Why, I gave you what you wanted; A hot-rod with "Born too be Wild" underneath it.
Customer: Well you got the hot-rod right, but it says, "Born too be Mild!"
micter: No it doesnt!
Customer: Yes it does!
micter: Lt me see.
(looking)
micter: How about 50% off..............

It's "to" in that instance , maroon!

[MikeW]

I work at Dollywood a theme park located in Pigeon Forge. so I see a LOT of people during a typical work day.

In the past several years I've noticed a lot more people,(men , women, and teenagers), with tattoos.

This alone makes me NOT want to get a tattoo. Will not having one make me a better Christian? I doubt it.

[Teleguy]

...Will not having one make me a better Christian?...


No. Just better looking.:)

[MikeW]

No. Just better looking.:)

rofl I guess it depend on kind what kind of tattoo and where it was located. :dunno:

[Zhangliqun]

I don't have any tattoos but I don't think there is a doctrinal problem with a tattoo in and of itself. As one example, I'm allergic to penicillin so I've considered getting a very plain, clear tattoo on my arm that just says "penicillin allergy" -- no flourishes, no images, just the words in the plainest font imaginable -- so I wouldn't have to bother with a medic-alert bracelet that breaks or gets lost. A practical purpose that could keep me from dying.

I think it comes down to what the purpose of the tattoo is. I suspect that in the overwhelming majority of cases the motivation is shallow at best. If my further suspicion is correct that the majority of tattoos come into being while the customer would not pass a breathylizer or urine test, then most tattoos you see don't have much in the way of positive reasons for being there.

So I submit that it depends entirely on why you want the tattoo...

[Hooligan]

Do you really think God gives a rip if you get a tattoo? No! Tattoos are not a salvation issue and Tattoos are not a stumbling block for others since it's not a salvation issue with them either.

[refin]

Tats are okay with me............I don't have any,but my ears are pierced (oops....should that be another thread?).:tomato:

[jrc]

One of my favorite people was a street person for a long time, at one point she says she was a satanist befroe she was saved. She has a bunch of tattoos, including one of the devil on the front of her neck. No money to get them removed, so she got a piercing - put a ring in the devils nose.

Alice is one of my favorite people in the world.

[ptrallan01]

1 This issue is similar to one of the issues that separated the eastern and western orthodox churches into what we know today as Orthodoxy and Catholicsim (sp). Three dimensional Idols vs 2 dimensional Idols (icons).

2 This is more related to the commandment not to make any graven image

3 Having a tatoo will not send you to hell. Not accepting salvation offered in Christ will

4 Tatoos prior to conversion may have been sinful but they are covered in the blood.

5 Tatoos post conversion should be discussed with God in advance and our behavior governed accordingly. He may have a use for them and we need to be open and obedient to His leading. After all He sent His Son to die a criminals death.

6 Matt enjoy your tatoo.

[Jaybo]

My fav. is when a girl gets a tat when she's 18, then has a few kids, grows a little older, and that butterfly looks like a big blue smudge.

I remember back in the day when people tried to you that passage from Levi to tell us kids that Mr.T was bad, because he had corners on his hair.

Just - wow.

[Rubsoul]

Does anyone realize.... that when you get older... the tatoo's will be wrinkled! :yikes:

[Kitty]

Or will have migrated to another part of your body. lol

[refin]

Or will have migrated to another part of your body. lol

rofl

[jrc]

Or will have migrated to another part of your body. lol

That happens to hair too..... nuff said.:hmm: