Prejudice against electric guitars (and guitars in general)

[Wally]

Prejudice against their use in Worship, to be exact. Does it exist? If so, why? What are your thoughts?


I believe it exists, particularly against electrics. some thoughts....

- No other instrument is as closely associated w/ "rock and roll" as the electric guitar

- many non-musicians have an idea of an electrics sound as nothing but "loud & distorted"

- for many, the piano/organ is the only "proper" or "traditional" instrument for worship.... despite the fact that stringed instruments were used in worship first, and depsite the fact that the CCM (or country, pop, gospel, etc) music that they listen too Mon-Sat is guitar dominated.

- some feel that the only proper music for worship is Psalms, accompanied by a piano or organ (or no instrumnetal accompaniment)... despite the fact that some of the Psalms call for the use of stringed instruments :hissyfit

- some "well trained" musicians see the guitar as a "folk" instrument and look down on the "lack of training" most of us guitarists have

- the same "well trained" musicians may view the guitar as inferior to a "keyboard instrument" for accompanying hymn singing. Here is a quote I found recently from Leonard Payton...

"It is true that the guitar can serve some limited use, and we should rejoice to have guitars when it is the best we can do. Still, keyboard instruments present much greater musical versatility. Guitarists are physically limited by the very nature of the instrument to the number of keys they may use. This often takes the song outside of the best singing range for the congregation. A capo may remedy this situation somewhat, but it introduces new tuning problems and weakens an already thin timbre so that the instrument approaches the sound of a toy ukulele. Keyboard instruments, by contrast, are only as limited in matching the congregation's best singing range as the player's ability to read the music or to transpose. There is no presupposed physical obstacle. "
( entire article http://www.the-highway.com/articleJuly98.html )

While I respect Dr Payton and agree with much of what he has written (that I have read), that comment shows a real prejudice toward guitars in my opinion... and he obviously has never heard my Telecaster capoed at the seventh fret.... toy ukele my foot :mrgreen:

[Micter]

Sore subject!

I attended a church for about 4 years and all the time I played lead guitar in the worship band the soundman would completely take me out of the mix. He made the mistake of telling some friends that he can't stand guitars in worship. I tried for a long time to "just deal with it" but eventually I had a heart ot heart with the worship leader and told him that it was a waste of time to learn 100's of songs, lug my gear around, and stand up on stage only to "NOT" be heard. So I eventually ended up leaving the church over it.

I am sorry to say that I have seen this all too often.

[Teleguy]

Oh yeah...
Choir robes and tamborines would go over real big at our church.

We serve a community of drug addicts and alcoholics. What Mr. Payton, would describe as "low" culture (spare me)!

Kinda like fisherman and prostitutes...

[MrMike]

I've been pretty blessed. At the last church I attended, quite often the worship leader would look at me in rehearsal and say something like, "Mike, in this section, I want to hear you going nuts!". He encouraged me to play as the Spirit led. In my current church, it's a bit more subdued, but I still get to stomp on the Tube Screamer a few times during each service. Between the piano and the organ, they have the melodic portion of the rhythm section covered. My role is more that of icing, rather than cake.

[ptrallan01]

The sound of the trumpet; praise him with the Psaltry and Harp.

Praise Him with the timbrel and dance; praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

Let Everything That Has Breath PRAISE THE LORD!!!!


Remember that the Book of Psalms starts off talking about the contrast between righteous and unrighteous men. The next 148 Psalms take us through the struggles until we reach this CRESCENDO OF PRAISE AND WORSHIP where we use every musical instrument to the Glory of God. The words translated Praise the Lord or Praise Ye the Lord are HALLELUJAH!!!

HALLELUJAH with guitars and tube amps or solid state amps or no amps its okay with God!!!!

Now if we can just teach the churches!!!

Peter

[reverbbb]

How silly would we look standing up there and playing air guitar?

Sometimes I think that is how we view ourselves when we are not supported by the soundmen. I have had a time or two when I know that the only sound being heard from my amp was the sound from my amp - no house mix at all. At that point, you know that only 20% of the people can hear you clearly, 20% can hear you occasionally, and the rest don't even know that you are in the room. Since I stand of to the side and below the stage, very few people can see me either.

Having said that, I believe that my church body supports electric guitars. What they don't seem to like is the bass guitar. :banghead There are many folks that complain about the bass being too loud. One has to wonder what they are expecting. Everytime I have been to a really spirit felt P&W assembly, the bass guitar was the domonate force in the presentation. You can literally feel the music at those assemblies.

In our church, the sound system is so poor, that if you attempt to boost the bass guitar above speaking voice level, the speakers begin to clip and muddy up badly. Therefore, there is a serious sonic deadness of the music in our building. The folks at the back of the room are far from enthused by the transistor radio sound that they hear. Yet, folks are saying the bass guitar is too loud. I don't get it.

I agree with all of your comments Wally. However, in our church, we seem to have gotten beyond that because our average age is about 27 years old. We have a high ratio of teens and college students compaired to just a few over 60. This ratio also reveals a budget constraint as well.

[TheViking]

HALLELUJAH with guitars and tube amps or solid state amps or no amps its okay with God!!!!

Now if we can just teach the churches!!!

Peter
I am not too sure abt the solid state amps, or the no amps thing hehe :lol:

hehe nah As I might have stated before, A God who created thunder and waterfalls can't be too bothered by some joyful noise.

:angel

[lockingnut]

I don't know if it's prejudice, may be more fear. That church I mentioned in my other post wanted to reach out to the comunity but had one foot stuck in traditionalism and either couldn't or wouldn't move forward. They wound up driving people away (not over the music), and I found out later it was the 3 third time that leadership caused a mass exodus of it's members.

The church I'm with now isn't afraid, there's allot of good lively music out there that will wake people up in the morning and prepare them for a message. . Our pastor stands behind what the worship ministry chooses for worship and to those whom aren't comfortable with it he says to 'lighten up'. Some leave but that's how God shuffles his people around. There are other good God fearing churches around like the one I mentioned above better suited for them, why should we change how we worship? It's not perfect there but we're allowed to worship free'er than anywhere else I've ever played. We're battling over music style lately and I'm not sure how God's going to work it, I'm glad I'm not handling it for him. :)

[refin]

Sore subject!

I attended a church for about 4 years and all the time I played lead guitar in the worship band the soundman would completely take me out of the mix. He made the mistake of telling some friends that he can't stand guitars in worship. I tried for a long time to "just deal with it" but eventually I had a heart ot heart with the worship leader and told him that it was a waste of time to learn 100's of songs, lug my gear around, and stand up on stage only to "NOT" be heard. So I eventually ended up leaving the church over it.

I am sorry to say that I have seen this all too often.


Sadly,this happens more often than we realize......
I remember when everything had to center around the keyboard,which was usually played by someone afraid to stray away from the infamous DX7 piano sound that was on EVERY worship song ( I once thought I would go crazy if I heard one more song with that sound).
Micter has a very valid point here,and had the heavenly huevos to voice the truth to his worship leader (in love,of course :angel ).It isn't that we want to be soundhogs,but it is a waste of time and energy to show up and practice,lugging gear around just to not be heard.There was another excellent post on this in the Soundmans section about going direct instead of using an amp.The guitar,in it's true (at times) savage force,is foreign land to most people in church----ironically,no one complains about it on the worship CDs they buy! :dunno

[bvmjethead]

God, I thank you that my church leaders do not have this prejudice against any instrument.


This morning one of our guitar players was absolutely throwing a fit. The amp was screaming. God was glorified big time.

It was during Agnus Dei no less, they did it harder than 3rd Day does it on their live worship album.....

[Micter]

For those of you who are in churches that support guitars in worship consider yourselves very blessed.

[Crunchyriff]

I'm prejudiced against any electric guitars....

except MINE! :dunno

:ROFL

[seagullplayer]

I'm afraid most of the time the prejudice in a Church is not really about different instruments. It's really just about change of any kind.
Some are dead and don't know it.

Preacher had noticed an old farmer in the pew for several Sundays. The farmer wore his old faded bibs each Sunday.
So the Preacher speaks to the farmer at the end of the Service while shacking hands. He asks the farmer to pray and ask God just what Jesus would wear to Church if He was to come next Sunday.
The farmer doesn't appear upset in any way, and agrees to seek God's will on this matter.
Next Sunday the farmer is back at Church, in his old bibs again. The Preacher speaks to the farmer after Service again and asks him if he had spoken to God about his attire. The old farmer looks up and said "I sure did." "God said He didn't know what He would wear to this Church, He has never been here before!" :cry:

[Gino]

Brethren,
I think the problem or the prejudice has a variety of levels. In traditional churches there is the understanding that traditional church music is classical music - which it is not (by definition of church music scholars!). Most old hymns are basically popular (pop!) music of their day with Christian lyrics. In our German hymnal we have a number of hymns with tunes that originally were rather secular (some even with rather offending lyrics). And - mind you - the pipe organ was the 'heavy metal' weapon of choice for baroque musicians like Johann Sebastian Bach. It's not by chance that some HM string slingers like Y. Malmsteem cut their teeth on Bach's music.
Another objection is more on the practical side. Guitar players (us, folks!) are usually of the loud, up-front kind of musicians ever since Charlie Christian had that pickup idea.
Then again, I think the means have to serve the purpose - glorifiy our God and get people to worship Him. If that works with a pipe organ or piano (no tamed Hammonds, please - they gotta scream as well!) it's okay, if that goal is reached with your basic rock 'n roll instrumentation - also fine. Although I'd go for the smell of hot tube amps, if I have a choice!
Gino

[Teleguy]

...In traditional churches there is the understanding that traditional church music is classical music - which it is not (by definition of church music scholars!). Most old hymns are basically popular (pop!) music of their day with Christian lyrics...

All's fair then:
I don't wanna hear no Beethoven or Mozart as "offeratories" because they're Classical, anymore!
Neither were Christians anymore than singing Amazing Grace makes Willie Nelson one (so please don't pipe him in either)!
:???:

[ptrallan01]

With a story that I don't know where I read.

Seems a young boy was going home from Church with his father and said, "Dad I like Jesus and all but does the music have to be so dead? It just old and played out. I think we need something more upbeat and hip."

The father, with the vantage of age and the instructive mind of a Christian parent said, "Son if you don't like the music, why don't you go to your room and write something better."

Thus began the hymn writing career of Issac Watts whose music most of our children and many of us would find boring, outdated and old fashioned!

As one of the biblical writers once said, "Vanity of Vanities. All is vanity. There is nothing new under the sun." Including the ongoing debates, battles and wars about what is acceptable in worship!

Peter

[Wally]

Thus began the hymn writing career of Issac Watts whose music most of our children and many of us would find boring, outdated and old fashioned!

Peter

Not me, brother! I love many of the old hymns as well as a lot of our contemporary songs.... Isaac Watts "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross" is one of my favorites!

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.

Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God!
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood.

See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

His dying crimson, like a robe,
Spreads o’er His body on the tree;
Then I am dead to all the globe,
And all the globe is dead to me.

Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.

http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/biorpwatts.html

[SAguitar]

"Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all."

Amen, and Amen.

We are supposed to give it our all. I thank God every week that I am in a church that not only supports guitars, but most of our tunes are very Guitar-driven! Most of the time on stage, I am told to turn up, and to put more "Stank" in it (Distortion). I tend to like it just a bit cleaner than my band director. We like the guitars up front in the mix for nearly all of our uptempo songs, and let the leads go nuts towards the end of the slower, "more worshipful" ones. I'm spoiled. I know it. I'm thankful, and He knows it.

I will pray that all of you in more restricted arenas of worship be set free to worship as the Lord deserves and desires, with your sould, your life, hour all.

Be Blessed,
Stan

[Crunchyriff]

Another member of the "guitar friendly" churches here.

What a blessing it is!! I get thrown some cool 'bones' here and there during P&W when I'm up for duty. I really don't care, I'm just blessed to be a part of it. But when they cut me loose, baby, I cut loose before my King. Sometimes I'll be in the middle of a P&W verse, or a solo, and just look upwards and shake my head in amazement, tears streaming. I don't care who is looking, or what they think. Yeah, I CAN worship while serving. And I do.

That God spared His wrath for the sake of someone like me and allows me to play for Him, is something I NEVER want to get complacent about.

[SAguitar]

Amen, and Amen, Crunchy! I too have moments of major worship before the Father like that! Man, I live, practice, and pray for moments of service like that. Isn't it wonderful to do something you love so much for the One who loves us enough to give His Son to save us? Totally Awesome! I stand amazed. :cool:

[RainCaster]

Way too much time spent in worship wars. As much fun as I can have with my Tele, I have kept it in it's case for almost a year now. It seems to draw antagonism from my pastor, and a few other elderly members. I switch off between a few of my A/Es now, and I get no no more public grief. Since it is my place to help draw people closer to God in worship, that is what I will do.

Of course I still have to deal with a sound guy who mixes down the guitar to where it can't be heard at all. Sigh... That went over real good this last Sunday, when we had no keyboardist. :banghead: Nobody could hear me unless they were in the first two rows. I got several comments like "you sounded great until halfway thru the firt song, then I couldn't hear you any more." Four more weeks until I take a break.

[Ravindave_3600]

Way too much time spent in worship wars. As much fun as I can have with my Tele, I have kept it in it's case for almost a year now. It seems to draw antagonism from my pastor, and a few other elderly members. I switch off between a few of my A/Es now, and I get no no more public grief. Since it is my place to help draw people closer to God in worship, that is what I will do.

Praise God, Brother! I have great respect for a believer who is willing to set aside his preferences (or, his tele) because he recognizes his role is to lift the weak, rather than insisting on doing things his way. If we were all trying to be servants, imagine how few arguments the church would have, and how sweet they'd be: "YOU take the solo this time." "No, I'd MUCH rather hear YOU play!"

Of course I still have to deal with a sound guy who mixes down the guitar to where it can't be heard at all. Sigh... That went over real good this last Sunday, when we had no keyboardist. :banghead: Nobody could hear me unless they were in the first two rows.

See, this is the guy who doesn't get it, who thinks his annointed role is to decide what music everyone else gets to hear. Sounds like the worship leader should have a talk with him and suggest he make sure ALL the instruments the worship leader has called on are heard.

[lockingnut]

I don't see the point of standing up there for nothing. Our 'role' is to lead in lifting the Lord up in worship. Sometimes being heard isn't called for I know, but if God didn't want us to contribute he wouldn't of given us the ability, heart & passion to get up there in the first place. Guess I don't get it either.

[f69tele]

John 16:2


It's just the battle with religion. Religion kills, Christianity gives life. If everyone would just worship in Spirit and in Truth, there would be no arguments or cares about what instruments were playing praises to God.
(or the color of the carpet, the new building fund, or the fact that you spend $100 a week on altar flowers and people are starving down the street...)

:???:

[RainCaster]

See, this is the guy who doesn't get it, who thinks his annointed role is to decide what music everyone else gets to hear. Sounds like the worship leader should have a talk with him and suggest he make sure ALL the instruments the worship leader has called on are heard.

It gets more interesting- my wife is the WL, and I trained the sound guy. He has been brow-beaten by the Sr Pastor to keep down everything but his annointed pianist. Appointments come soon I'm told. Meanwhile, I'll keep trying to train others in the spirit of a worship team.

[jordan4168]

The church I play at, really let me do what I want. And most of our sound guys understand that the sound should be full and sound like the worship music, not just drums and acoustic or drums and piano. We've done everything you can think of when it comes to music. The name of the church is KeyStone Community CHurch out of Ada, MI. They think that as long as the message is right (lryicly), why not use it as a special song. So we've done everything from POD, Puddle of Mud, Evanescence and even Metallica, all the way to the O'Jay's, The Who, and Shania Twain. They think that if the song is loud and rowdie thats fine as long as the message is delivered.

[Wally]

It is sort of funny to me that organ music (and all instrumental music) was banished from many churches during the early Reformation period, only to be considered by many in our day to be the only traditional and correct musical accompaniment :mrgreen: :hissyfit

[prscustom24]

This thread reminds me of the first time I had the audacity to bend a note in church.

Wife said she overheard somebody ask "doesn't he know where he is?"

It wasn't wrong, I wasn't sorry, and it definitely happened again. :angel

[refin]

This thread reminds me of the first time I had the audacity to bend a note in church.

Wife said she overheard somebody ask "doesn't he know where he is?"

It wasn't wrong, I wasn't sorry, and it definitely happened again. :angel

SHAME on you! :rofl:

Don't you know that church is where if it ain't keyboard driven,it ain't??
Bending strings?!? Wow.....grace this time,excommunication next.You may cause someone to slip back mentally into the days when they bellied up to the bar and listened to a bar band doing "Free Bird."

[Teleguy]

...the days when they bellied up to the bar and listened to a bar band doing "Free Bird."

Not too long past for most of our "congregation," and clients in the rehab program which is central to our ministry.

I've had a LOT more comments (usually not to my face) from the "good" brothers (and sisters) at other churches who grew up in church and were baptized long before they knew who Jesus was (if they in fact know Him now)!

"...Fishermen! We'll have NO FISHERMEN stinkin' up the aisles please!
Jesus, wait... where's He going?..."

[RainCaster]

I can't remember King David ever mentioning pipe organ or piano as an "approved" instrument, yet that is what seems most "acceptable" in many churches, including mine. It seems to me that he chose the common instruments of the day, instruments that were suitable for use in processionals and could be played (gasp) while dancing.

[Crunchyriff]

It seems to me that he chose the common instruments of the day, instruments that were suitable for use in processionals and could be played (gasp) while dancing.

Boy howdy!

[SAguitar]

Oh No! You can't mean that he danced before the Lord? :shock (shock and awe!)

[kewlpack]

Naked no less.... well, David did. :innocent

[SAguitar]

:shock :shock :shock :innocent :innocent

[Teleguy]

It's not just Church music where guitar is given second class citizenship.

The local Jazz society insists that guitarists plug only into the PA (so they can control it).

Great. Bunch o' clarinet players and pianists dictating our sound. 8-[

[refin]

Naked no less.... well, David did. :innocent

Let's not start a trend here..... :ROFL

[MrMike]

I know that my church gets really uptight about that sort of thing. :ROFL :angel

[SAguitar]

It's not just Church music where guitar is given second class citizenship.

The local Jazz society insists that guitarists plug only into the PA (so they can control it).

Great. Bunch o' clarinet players and pianists dictating our sound. 8-[

We don't need no stinking Jazz society! :hissyfit

[TheViking]

.... why people go to chruch at all.
Actually I think a lot of people mistake a church for the reclamation dept of God. A lot of Christians feel they have the right to comment on stuff negatively in all aspects. The former pastor was MUCH better. The youngsters are too noisy. The young women dresses poorly and wear makeup. They even have electric guitars in the band.
When I go to church I want to meet God. I want to forget all about the pressure and stress from the outside world. I want to know that I am saved by grace. I want to rejoice because Jesus paid for my sins. However it appears that some people think they go to church to 1) Get something to talk about. 2) Vent all their dislikes about life today 3) Reminisce about the ole days when everything was so much better.

A friend of mine who recently became a pastor in a small congregation ran into some of these people. The congregation had been without a pastor for years and relied on evangelist to come every now and then. After a service he stood by the door as the congregation was leaving and shook every member’s hand. A little ole lady with a real grumpy look was the last one out. She said — Our old pastor was a much better preacher than you, he could preach for an hour straight. He smiled at her and said — Well I preach what the Lord tells me to, sometimes it’s short, other times it’s long. The lady looked at him and said, —well young man, our ole pastor could outpreach you any day. My friend looked at her and said, No offence, but I don’t think so mam, he’s been dead for 10 years.

Well she might have been right. Maybe the old pastor was better, but my friend is alive and willing to preach. He should be encouraged, not put down-

Seriously guys, if you’re in a church that’s more into bashing and trashing or preventing you from praising God in the way he called you to do, you should seriously look around for a new place to call your spiritual home. I know that is a harsh statement, but the good Lord gave you your talents for you to use to glorify him. If people pull you down, cut you out or treat you like a plague, you should have a serious talk with them. If it doesn’t help, look around for a congregation encouraging you to praise him.

[SAguitar]

I'm with the Viking on this one. After I got saved, I landed in an old, Conservative Baptist Church. Now, please don't think I'm running down Conservative Baptists here, I'm just relaying my experience in one congregation. This church was celebrating their 100th anniversary when I came on board. I was a recovering rock musician and knew nothin' about church music, but I was a willing servant. The lady (Mary) that was the pianist (paid) and organist (full pipe organ) there, and her husband (Tom) had this idea to start a praise team there and integrate that into the services. I had no idea what a praise team was, either, but I liked playing music so I said I would help. Over the next few years, I became the first person in their 100+ years to play an acoustic guitar, an electric guitar, an electric bass, and a drumset on their platform. We gradually introduced these elements, gently and carefully into worship. We endured countless bad notes dropped into the offering plates, and innumerous scowls and long faces while we genuinely worshipped a forgiving Father.

Five years later, this wonderful couple, who had both finished their college degrees at a Baptist college, and yearned to make their sole living from serving started to seek positions elsewhere. By that time, I was on their deacon board, and the question came up as to whether, they should offer them paid positions on staff. It was decided that the position(s) of worship leader/choir director had always been a volunteer position(s), other than the part-time pianist/organist, and that was the way it was going to remain. Needless to say, Tom and Mary found a calling and relocated to another state. I was disheartened that this church's leaders could not see what promise and potential they already had, and wouldn't invest in it. The writing was on the wall.

My wife and I decided that the time had definitely come to look elsewhere for the freedom that Christ so freely offers. We tried another church in town that I had heard was progressive in trying new ways to reach out to those who don't know Jesus. The term "seeker sensitive" that they used to describe their philosophy was new to me at the time. But I felt like I could fit right in their after our first visit.

The rest is "history." We've been there ever since, and I've been on the worship team since our third month of attending. Our music, our musicians, our singers, our choice in music (and it is very edgy) is continuously accepted, encouraged, and appreciated by the pastor, staff and the congregation. It is truly our Church Home.

So, like the Viking said, if you're truly serving with a clean heart, and you are truly seeking God, but are not feeling like your in the right place, move on. God has another place for you, and you're wasting valuable, precious time.

Jeremiah 29:11

[refin]

[quote="TheViking}

Seriously guys, if you’re in a church that’s more into bashing and trashing or preventing you from praising God in the way he called you to do, you should seriously look around for a new place to call your spiritual home. I know that is a harsh statement, but the good Lord gave you your talents for you to use to glorify him. If people pull you down, cut you out or treat you like a plague, you should have a serious talk with them. If it doesn’t help, look around for a congregation encouraging you to praise him.[/quote]

Quite true,folks......as a matter of fact,unless God has placed you there as a seed of hope,fold your tent and shake the dust off of your feet.Don't do this without prayer,as sometimes God places us in the wilderness for our own good,yet church should be a haven for the hurting and seeking/praising,not a museum for the saints.

[seagullplayer]

Sometimes it better to move than push, and sometimes it's better to push than move. Only Christ can lead you on the correct plan.

[prscustom24]

Sometimes it better to move than push, and sometimes it's better to push than move. Only Christ can lead you on the correct plan.

Amen. At one point, I said to the then-current pastor, "Y'know, this was our church before you got here, and it'll still be our church after you're gone." Of course, he thought musical perfection was achieved with the development of Gregorian chant, and it went downhill from there.

The current pastor is a harp player himself, his blues rendition of Silent Night is pretty sweet. Naturally, he's cool with what we do.

[Teleguy]

...The current pastor is a harp player himself, his blues rendition of Silent Night is pretty sweet. Naturally, he's cool with what we do.


Cool!
Our pastor is a good Blues shouter and plays a bit of harp himself. He insulates us from the elders. :cool:

[seagullplayer]

Our Pastor's wife called me last year to buy a guitar for him for Christmas! It was a big suprise, he never knew a thing. He even played a special for the Church a few months ago. Turns out he's a picker from way back. :cool:

He is the biggest supporter of any music we have at Church. He seems more than able to see past whatever is coming out of the speakers, and hear what's coming from the heart. He is a great Pastor to learn under/from, and a close friend.

[RainCaster]

After 4 weeks away from my church on an extended vacation, I returned last Sunday. My usual sound guy was in his prime form- as soon as I switched to fingerstyle, he boosted the volume. Next song, I grabbed the pick again, and (yep) the congregation got blasted out again.

Afterwards, I went up to the booth to talk to him about his (ahem) technique. I guess he had already received a scolding from somebody about the guitar being too loud, because he went balistic on me. I tried to explain that the source of the problem is him varying my volume up and down in the middle of very song. I asked as nicely as I could for him to set my volume once during the soundcheck, then not mess with it any longer. He stormed out and said I would have to run the sound board from now on. OK- now I can get a stable sound system for our worship team.

The real problem (for me) is this guy. I really feel for him, and certainly did not mean to offend him. He isn't as firm in his faith as many on the worship team, and I certainly don't want him to become disallusioned with the church over this. How can I approach him?

[Ravindave_3600]

The real problem (for me) is this guy. I really feel for him, and certainly did not mean to offend him. He isn't as firm in his faith as many on the worship team, and I certainly don't want him to become disallusioned with the church over this. How can I approach him?

Gently.

I don't understand soundguys, but we musicians seem to frustrate them (a lot!) Remember your goal is not to have the best soundguy possible, but to be in right relationship with God and your brother. Therefore (even if you didn't mean to give offense, and even if you did nothing wrong) it's up to you to reach out to him.

In circumstances like this, I find it useful to go to him and say something like this: "I think I offended you, and I didn't mean to. Can you tell me what happened, from your perspective?" This shows a servant heart, that you're willing to accept blame, and that you're willing to listen to what he has to say. If he's willing to work on the situation, this also puts you in a position where that's possible.

Be blessed

[BigJim]

I agree...Be gentle.

At my church we don't really have a sound guy...it's me. I also play lead and man ony video clips etc. that we use during the service. I can tell you it is very frusttrating and hard to get a consistent sound setup and play lead at the same time. Many times I have gone back to listen to the recording and on intrument (usually mine) is too loud in the mix. I oftne wish that we had a sound guy that could manage the levels durnign service. On the other hand then you have your situation so...what is the lesser of the two frustrating matters. In this case I would choose to have a sound guy...even if at times he blasts the congrigation because he likes loud distorted guitars.

My advice would be to aproch him and acknowledge what he does. The work he does during the service (worship) and during the sound check. It is very helpful to have someone who knows the board and can adjust thing properly. Then I would explain to him that you can control the dynamics or your sound so that you have a consistent volume level to the audiance once the basic sound is set (during sound check). Maybe he doesn't realize that you don't know how loud you are to the rest of the congregation because all you have is the monitor mix and the volume there does not change. I would just try to understand what he is doing and why. Have him explain why he keeps changing you volume. Maybe he is trying to get you to cut through the mix with volume so he thinks you are being heard, but doesn't realize just how loud you really are. Offer to work with him to get the right ballance if he is haveing trouble with the mix. Maybe he is frustranted because he thinks he is doing ererything right and then is told basically that he is a failure.

Ravindave is right, ask him what happened. He was obviously offended by something you or someone else said (I would guess someone else offened him you just happend to get the reprocusions of his frustration). You just need to find out what is "really" going on.

Good luck.

[prscustom24]

Today's my day to go against the grain, I suppose. . .

The sound guy doesn't tell me how to play guitar. I don't tell the sound guy how to mix. I get an amp level I like -- and I know the sound guy and the room well enough to know the range the amp volume ought to be in -- then he mics my amp and I leave the rest up to him. Any heat he catches from the congregation doesn't ever come from me. It makes for a fine working relationship.

The fact that your guy stormed off means he cut off further communication. I take it he has not recycled back with you, so you'll have to initiate the conversation yourself. Try to keep it on a problem-solving level and you'll probably work things out. If not, you gave it your best shot. If he quits, he quits. Find somebody else.

[RainCaster]

The sound guy doesn't show up for rehearsals, and so he has no idea what we are doing. So when we (worship team) have agreed that the first song in the set is guitar led, then the next is piano led, he has no clue. :dunno So he mixes me down real low on the first song, and all that is heard is background chords from the keyboard. Next song, I may only do lead fills, or fingerstyle acoustic work. That gets boosted up to where it makes no sense musically either. And on it goes.

Yes, he does tell me how to play my guitar, with his awkward mixing style. He can't read music and has no artistic bent, but he has been a faithful servant for many years in this thankless job. The worship leader and I do compliment him from time to time, but his usual feedback comes from those few sleepers who gripe to him when the music wakes them up. (sad but true)

I am playing phone tag with him- we'll see how it goes.

[PRStringer]

Of course, this is an issue today.

My Church has come along way.... when I grew up there (I have been attending there for 22 Years) it was straight up Traditional.... Choir members in robes, Piano, Organ...

It has since become more contempary... and I am loving it.

There is a delicate balance you have to do.... keep in mind that this is a WORSHIP Service, so that 80's Shred Solo doesn't easily fit.

We have a good balance of newer music, AND Hymns.... and I think it all glorifys God in the process.

I try to just get in there and Worship and have a good time, playing what fits the song...

That in mind, there are ALOT of our Older Folks that love the Electric Guitar and I get alot of compliments on how it "adds" to the Worship.

Not that I am after any compliments, but I appreciate that... I want to rock (and I play with distortion just like most do).... but I don't want to detract from the Worhsip form.

Hey, praise and have fun.
:-)

[Teleguy]

You've got it.
Balance is key.

I think in many blended services like yours, distortion and too much bass pulsing through riles 'em up.

[backwater]

I stand on both sides of the fence here - on one hand I am a (loud) guitarist currently on a break from leading worship and on the other hand I am a sound engineer and church sound system designer.

Over the years I have worked in many churches, some progressive and some very restrained. I remember one church in particular had no keyboard instruments at all and everything was on the guitar. The church was vibrant and I don't recall any complaints - the congregation being from 3 to 80. In fact, in all the churches I have played in or worked at I can only once recall a complaint and that was to do with the choice of music rather than the volume or instruments used (I used to play "There is a green hill far away" to the tune of "house of the rising sun").

As far as I can see, if God has given you the skills to play guitar and lead worship, those skills should be used to bring glory to God.

The next time there is a complaint about guitars being used remind them that "Silent Night" was originally performed on a guitar!

:angel

[Jaybo]

A big problem is that people take a few songs that we sing on a Sunday morning WAY too seriously.

It's just a few songs. God was with us all week.

Also - people take their personal preferances about music, and then bizarrely make a list of what, and what is not acceptable. Not just what they prefer - but what should be thought of as good, and not good.

Then, all of the sudden - you have acceptable and unacceptable forms of worship.

As if God is so picky.

And as if a few songs once a week are so important.

People are definitely uncomfortable with change. And definitely threatened when you don't have the same opinions as they do.

People want to crucify me when I offer my opinion on how Delerious and 3rd Day are boring. :dunno

I would rather watch an infomercial about the magic bullet - then another broadcast of the Gaither homecoming!!! :biggrin:

How on Earth are millions of people watching this!!!!

It's really a big clash of cultures, and (hopefully) a changing of the guard - as we get away (please God) of the gospel, and a portion start moving towards something that is more culturally relevant.

I can understand how a southern gospel lover may not appreciate the music I do - but there is no way you can lable my form of expression of love and worship towards God as invalid.

[MadHatter]

I can understand how a southern gospel lover may not appreciate the music I do - but there is no way you can lable my form of expression of love and worship towards God as invalid.

Amen to that

God made us individuals for a reason.

[stephen]

My 2 cents:

I think it is a break down in understanding eachothers needs:

1) The soundman "needs" to control the sound system, both the P&W Teams, and The Pastor's/speakers, and assure it is working optimally, and not being a distraction for the congregation

2) The musicians want to provide their best performance and that includes tone and sound levels, and to lead the congregation in Praise and Worship.

Now, some may disagree with me, but like I started this post out, its my 2 cents:

The Praise Team is the one being supported by the Sound Team, but, that does not negate the Praise Team from knowing the limitations that the sound team has to work under. When you have a changing hunidity/temperature condition going on in the room, the sound changes, and that could include feedback (annoying to the congregation), or the pastor may be sensitive to anyone who quips "Does it have to be so loud?", and orders the sound guy to turn some of the instruments down (that has to be dealt with between the Pastor and the PW Leader, not the PW Team beating up on the sound guy).

Then one matter I have seen lately: the sound guys grumbling that they are the ones charged with the care of all the gear, but some on the PW team that dont really seem to care about that minor little issue. Heck, we are missing power-strips, extension chords, stands, cables, even a mic or two. They get really bent about that, and I dont blame em. Also, some on the PW Team offers to help em, but they kinda ignore the way the sound guys do things, and do it the way they want to, but that just makes the sound guy top re-do it the right way.

So I think what has to be done is, a coming together, and a realization that both teams rely on the other, that the sound team is supporting the music ministry, but the music ministry is not the master, but rather has to help by recognizing the limitations and expectations put on them, and even to the point of working things through: establish for instance (as an example from a previous post), effectively communicate to the sound guy, not to change the levels when styles change (using a pick, changing to finger picking, then back to pick), and guitarists not to cheat on sound checks, by rolling off the volume knobs on the instrument, then when the service starts, ya roll the volume up all the way, and sends the sound guy to turnin knobs.

I think we have to get rid of the us versus them mentality that I see crop up now and then between both teams.

I think I'm gonna suggest a dinner between both teams, just to bond as family, and foster togetherness, and establish a healthy dialogue between all.

[MadHatter]

I think I'm gonna suggest a dinner between both teams, just to bond as family, and foster togetherness, and establish a healthy dialogue between all.

you know...that's a great idea...
also someone suggested getting them in the prayer room before the service as well...that is also something I'm going to suggest to our leadership

[TheViking]

My 2 cents:
.....

I think we have to get rid of the us versus them mentality that I see crop up now and then between both teams.

I think I'm gonna suggest a dinner between both teams, just to bond as family, and foster togetherness, and establish a healthy dialogue between all.


Yeah, you should think that was a given thing right? All work towards a common goal, but neigh, no, nay, njet, nixdorf, it just doesn't work that way for many churches. I think there are several reasons to why this is.
1. To most people, there is a difference between on stage and off stage personnel. The pastor, the P&W team, will most of the time be viewed as more “important” than the people cleaning the church, making coffee, decorating the church and yeah, more important than even the sound guys. I think this has to do with the fact that people still see differently on practical and spiritual tasks. Mixing is practical, singing praise is spiritual.
2. The P&W teams I have been with, meets up for prayer before the service. The pastor or leadership often joins in. The people doing the practical stuff are often not included in this time of worship before the service.
3. In a service you will often hear people pray for the pastor about to share the word of God or for the P&W team who is about to lead us in worship. How many times do you hear anyone pray for the sound guys?
4. The pastor and the P&W people get credit for what they do. The pastor will often even credit the P&W team from the platform. I have yet to hear a pastor credit the people cleaning or yeah, the sound guys from the platform. If it is done, it is a brief “thanx to the ladies who decorated our church with all these lovely flowers”

Having a dinner would be a great idea. I also think meeting up once a month, or every two months, and make plans, evaluate the past months and so on. Maybe twice a year meet up with everyone who has a specific task and come together giving each other credit for what’s been done. We’re all human and like to be noticed for what we do.

I also think that the pastors could put in some extra effort in making the ones doing the practical tasks a bit more visible. Bring the lil ole ladies who prepares the coffee up on the platform, show the cleaning crew to the congregation, yeah even pull the sound guy up on stage and give him a pat on the back

There should not be any us or them. Everyone should be a part of one big team creating the frame for meeting the Almighty God, but until we recognize, accept and credit all tasks as equal, that won’t happen anytime soon.

[Crossroadsguitar]

I have found that electric gutiars have been welcomed in the churches that I have been a part of church but most places seem to freak out if a full drum kit is set up in church Sunday Morning.

[RainCaster]

We are being asked to return to the church that Mrs RC and I helped found 12 years ago. They hated guitars, and pushed my wife and I out last fall. Replaced the guitars and piano with a freeby organ that takes 15 minutes to warm up and is horribly out of tune. :jao:

Now we have an email asking us when we are going to come back. We have been attending a church with 2 full praise bands (including drums, keys, teles...) and a strong drive to reach out to those on the younger side of retirement/menopause. I can't think of a reason why, but the Mrs want's us to talk to them. :dunno

[stephen]

I really like how this thread has come around. Even though we still recognize problems, and no resolution in sight, were discussing plausible ways to bridge the gap, and reminding ourselves that we are a team, NOT an us versus them!

You guys and gals bless me every time! Thank You!

[Jaybo]

Quote:
I think I'm gonna suggest a dinner between both teams, just to bond as family, and foster togetherness, and establish a healthy dialogue between all.


you know...that's a great idea...
also someone suggested getting them in the prayer room before the service as well...that is also something I'm going to suggest to our leadership


Those are really great ideas.

I have a few ideas if prayer and fellowship don't work though!! :ninja2

:sprint:

[Jaybo]

Quote:
I think I'm gonna suggest a dinner between both teams, just to bond as family, and foster togetherness, and establish a healthy dialogue between all.


you know...that's a great idea...
also someone suggested getting them in the prayer room before the service as well...that is also something I'm going to suggest to our leadership


Those are really great ideas.

I have a few ideas if prayer and fellowship don't work though!! :ninja2

:sprint:

[Structo]

Well, this has always been pretty hotly debated.
How much electric guitar heard in the balance?
The soundman's job is a lowly, lonely job at best.
I know because I ran sound at my church for over a year.
Many soundpeople are, sorry to say, asleep at the wheel.
They don't listen to the overall balance and spirit of the song.
After I started playing lead electric I found that I had to keep a little reserve on my volume pedal (PODXTL) so that when and if I had a solo I could give it that boost to get over the top. Then I would return to rhythm and low and behold, the next solo wouldn't cut it because the soundperson had turned me down.
The other matter was that the Pastor's wife plays keyboards and is a gifted pianist. She has a Yamaha electronic keyboard with a million patches but only uses the piano and organ patch.
She doesn't like electric guitar and states this quite often.
What she doesn't understand is, that most (I'd say at least 95%) of the body likes contemporary music with guitar leads and fills.
The few times I have been able to play a really spirit filled solo, you know the kind, where you are just about weeping because you are pouring your heart out to God through your instrument. People came up to me and said how much the guitar had blessed them during worship. (along with me being blessed as well)
I got tired of the bickering after three years or so and I have taken a leave of absence from the team.
I found myself getting angry when I was going to rehearsal because I knew if she was leading I would have to "tone it down"...................
The Pastor is the main worship leader and he likes guitar (he plays acoustic) but he usually defers to the wife to maintain peace in the group.
I really loved playing in the worship group but I didn't want to go with a angry heart and possibly taint the group with it.
I haven't left the church but I don't have the same joy when I go that I used to have.
I'm 49 years old and I'm not a metal head. Just a guy that wants to play for the Lord.
Sincerely, Tom (Structo)

[stephen]

I can't think of a reason why, but the Mrs want's us to talk to them. :dunno

I'm not saying its so, but it could be that maybe, just possibly, God might be trying to get your attention on this through your wife. Doesny hurt to hear them out, and pray about it, and let God dcide what your supposed to do.

[RainCaster]

I'm not saying its so, but it could be that maybe, just possibly, God might be trying to get your attention on this through your wife. Doesny hurt to hear them out, and pray about it, and let God dcide what your supposed to do.

I have thought of that, Stephen. We will return this Sunday to see how we are received on a personal level. One step at a time...

[Jaybo]

I haven't left the church but I don't have the same joy when I go that I used to have.
I'm 49 years old and I'm not a metal head. Just a guy that wants to play for the Lord.
Sincerely, Tom (Structo)


Well.....you can't NOT be a metal head, and expect to have joy!! :lol:

The traditional piano players in church usually have a hard time with guitarists, because they want to be the lead instrument on songs, and do all the fills, etc.

I guess I have a hard time with them too.

It would be nice if more piano players learned to use their "string" patches, and played for the song more, and as a background instrument rather than trying to take the lead, and choking every bit of space and melody out of a song.

rant, rant, rant!

[RainCaster]

I spent two very pleasant years with a pianist who was very classicly trained, (U of Leningrad) and quite conservative in her religion (Eastern Orthodox). She was the most adept and wonderful person to play with- she could pick up modern rythms, and loved the upbeat songs we would do together. She really enjoyed playing off me- as we would go back and forth on who leads/fills at any point in the set.

Not all pianists are so "traditional", and it has EVERYTHING to do with where their heart is.

RC

[MrMike]

Absolutely! I had the priveledge of playing with a lady who was in her late 50's. She had some musical education in college, but it didn't hinder her a bit. :mrgreen: There were times when I'd just mouth the chords to her as we played and she just held her own, as if she'd known the song for years. She read music very well but wasn't a slave to it like some piano players are. And she loved to hear lots of guitar. I really miss playing with her.

[Teleguy]

...The traditional piano players in church usually have a hard time with guitarists, because they want to be the lead instrument on songs, and do all the fills, etc.

I guess I have a hard time with them too.

It would be nice if more piano players learned to use their "string" patches, and played for the song more, and as a background instrument rather than trying to take the lead, and choking every bit of space and melody out of a song...


Exactly my experience.
Segovia spent his life trying to legitimize the guitar to the European music society. I suppose they had the same attitude at heart.
Maybe this is why Gypsies seem to play guitar so well and with such abandon. But of course, their whole way of LIFE is an affront to such people.

[Crunchyriff]

You know what most of this is, don't you? EGO. (not to mention some negative spiritual issues here)

I'm reading this and just shaking my head. WE humans are full of 'issues', aren't we, and some of us really have a problem with ego even after we are saved.

Certainly there is place for guitar-driven OR key's driven arrangements. BUT the bigger picture is this: we are all playing for The Lord, and it isn't OUR SHOW.

Let me give an example:

I've had the distinct honor of playing with two of the finest pianists/keyboardists in the Western USA, on P&W teams. We are talking true, "concert pianist" quality pros here. Both of these people have forgotten more chops on keys than I have ever learned on guitar (or vocally, for that matter); and yet they not only treat me with respect, but even honor (which immensely humbles me) me; and they give the guitarists and other musicians their due place in the arrangement... and they aren't walking all over the rhythm section...but they are complete musical giants- absolute monsters on the keys.

WHY? Because they truly understand their place at God's table, so to speak, they are walking in the spirit; and live it to the best of their ability. Both are VERY aware of the degree of talent they posess yet they don't wear it on their sleeve to "lord over" others: whether it be in the arrangement, the mix, or even in an autocratic sense. And yet both are leaders.

Tell ya what- Pesonally, when I was in the secular music biz and serving myself- I had no patience for egotistical musicians & singers (and there are plenty). I have even less regard for those likewise, who fancy themselves as part of His flock. That attitude has no place being fostered, or allowed on the WT.

I myself would be seeking some serious direction from the Lord in the prospect of going back to the group who so enjoyed having you under their feet...& would not go back unless I received a clear, direct order from our Supreme Commander. [-( :salute:

[Teleguy]

...talking true, "concert pianist" quality pros here...


Oh yeah. Our pianist is a Baltimore Conservatory of Music graduate Classical concert pianist. Unfortunately he's like an evil spoiled child. High drama and all that. Slave to the written page. Doesn't think he needs to rehearse or practice on his own.
Wants recognition.
I am not the leader, just another sideman.
If I was the leader I'd hurt him...

Which is why they don't let me lead. :roll:

[Brian]

... I've had the distinct honor of playing with two of the finest pianists/keyboardists in the Western USA, on P&W teams... Both are VERY aware of the degree of talent they posess yet they don't wear it on their sleeve to "lord over" others: whether it be in the arrangement, the mix, or even in an autocratic sense. And yet both are leaders.Servant Leadership... it was a point I brought up in the System 2 Set the Sound and Levels thread. What a thrill it is to play with low maintenance pros.

Oh yeah. Our pianist is a Baltimore Conservatory of Music graduate Classical concert pianist. Unfortunately he's like an evil spoiled child. High drama and all that. Slave to the written page... If I was the leader I'd hurt him... Which is why they don't let me lead. :roll: :ROFL There's a time/place for the page (like Big Bands and showtunes in musicals). One of the guys I play with on a Worship team and on some other projects is real big on the page, and it's usually the vocalists who don't follow it very well in church. I gently remind him every so often when he gets in a huff that the message is in the vocals for P&W and even in showtunes in our church musicals. We are supposed to support them.

There's an old virtuoso pianist at our church who plays chords, melody, bass, and fills every possible hole, to his own tempo and key while pounding on a grand piano so hard he breaks strings. No matter what the style of song is, when he plays it's Southern Gospel. In the "new/improved" geezer (like me) contemporary service today a jazz music grad was asked to play piano but to my dismay our virtuoso jumped on B3 :roll: . His left foot was louder than the bass player (I'm gonna hide those pedals)... :ninja2 . The Sr Pastor digs him though and he decided to join us on the 88 key Triton playing strings too! (and always seems to sound like a Wurlitzer at a Roller Rink, loudly)

"I got 88 keys! Wanna hear 'em all?" hopeless, utterly hopeless. I voiced my concern to the new geezer contemporary WL.

[Teleguy]

I hear ya, Bro Brian.
They all have their constituencies.
Gak.

[Crunchyriff]

Ack Ack!!

[MadHatter]

you know....
I love this forum....it's just wonderful...
lol

I'd just like like to say how great it is to be even a small part of this place.

[dmock66]

I TOTALLY agree! I am so thankful that I found this forum! Not only are there knowledgable guitarists here, but everyone is also saved!

I'm very fortunate in that I get to play essentially whatever tones I chose and I can play my track how I want - period. That part is awesome! My beef is I can't turn up an amp any bigger than 10 watts before I'm forced to turn down! Small price to pay (as it turns out it was $130 for an Epiphone Galaxie 10) for the freedom to play!

[seagullplayer]

Our last piano player was very good, but she was a little weak on off the cuff stuff. She liked it in writing...
Anyway she was always asking me to play with her on songs. The grand piano always covered up my acoustic guitar totally. You could not hear the guitar at all, I couldn't understand why she wanted me to play with her. She did a great job on the piano and didn't need any fill, I don't play lead anyway. As it turned out she really wanted me for vocals, she had a wonderful voice, but was afraid to sing alone in public. She sure didn't need my voice either for that matter. Wish she had told me to start with, we would have had alot more options open.

communication

[Micter]

Guitar driven worship is a result of this cultures music. Most people that "hate" guitars are holding on to the previous generations music. It boils down to the fact that guitar in worship is still relatively new and still not accepted in many churches. I have been on worship teams that I was not allowed to either use distortion or play lead because that is "unexceptable to God". I say hawg wash. The word of God says to make a joyful noise unto the Lord and that is just what I intend to do.

[refin]

BRIAN WROTE:
There's an old virtuoso pianist at our church who plays chords, melody, bass, and fills every possible hole, to his own tempo and key while pounding on a grand piano so hard he breaks strings. No matter what the style of song is, when he plays it's Southern Gospel. In the "new/improved" geezer (like me) contemporary service today a jazz music grad was asked to play piano but to my dismay our virtuoso jumped on B3 :roll: . His left foot was louder than the bass player (I'm gonna hide those pedals)... :ninja2 . The Sr Pastor digs him though and he decided to join us on the 88 key Triton playing strings too! (and always seems to sound like a Wurlitzer at a Roller Rink, loudly)

"I got 88 keys! Wanna hear 'em all?" hopeless, utterly hopeless. I voiced my concern to the new geezer contemporary WL.[/quote]

Some people just don't see the whole picture.
Maybe this guy has played in trios where he had to fill alot of space,but to gobble up all the sonic space is a lack of team sportsmanship.
I would definitely have a meeting with him and express that you appreciate his talent and dedication.....but the band needs to start orchestrating better.Tell him that "we need arrangements and orchestrations that guide each tune with conviction,yet don't choke improvision or flow."
By putting "we" in there,he won't feel attacked.




If he does,take him out back and flog him. O:)

[Jaybo]

Guitar driven worship is a result of this cultures music. Most people that "hate" guitars are holding on to the previous generations music. It boils down to the fact that guitar in worship is still relatively new and still not accepted in many churches. I have been on worship teams that I was not allowed to either use distortion or play lead because that is "unexceptable to God". I say hawg wash. The word of God says to make a joyful noise unto the Lord and that is just what I intend to do.

Well....God DOES like guitar more! :lol:

You see it alot with people ascribing (good Christianese word) their personal tastes to any part of church.

Often times, they've "prayed about it", or "God has layed it on their hearts". When it's really just what they prefer.

Of course the Holy Spirit prefers face melting guitar solo's every song.

I'm pretty sure.

[MadHatter]

Of course the Holy Spirit prefers face melting guitar solo's every song.

I'm pretty sure.

and all the guitarists said AMEN

atleast when it fits the song nicely

[dmock66]

I'd say God likes electric guitar. Ask your worship leader if they've been to Promise Keepers (if your WL is a man). ANY music there is heavy with electric guitar. You'll not be able to convince me that the spirit isn't moving when during a guitar solo, granted it's slow, violin type line with TONS of delay, played behind the prayer... I look at the floor in front of the stage and it's FULL of guys on their face, bawling like babies, committing their hearts to JESUS CHRIST!

I flat out told my Sr Pastor that he can't convince me otherwise. I told him that at PK in 04 - he couldn't argue with me after that.

At the same time - I don't feel that playing Eruption is an appropriate "worship" element. We have to be sure what we're doing is truly for God, not for our thirst for tube gain in a sanctuary.

[Drop_D_Chalupa]

At the same time - I don't feel that playing Eruption is an appropriate "worship" element. We have to be sure what we're doing is truly for God, not for our thirst for tube gain in a sanctuary.

Aw, c'mon! Lighten up! :lol:

Actually, that was a very good point.

I go to a small "traditionalist" church, with a baby-grand piano and a semi-portable (88 keys) keyboard as the "organ". Normally, I am content to bring my own portable keyboard and noodle along on the bass line a la Ray Manzarek during the congregational singing. I break out the guitar usually to accompany my own (such as it is) or someone else's solo singing.

However, I do agree that guitars, or any other instrument for that matter, are just as holy as keyboards when it comes to church music, and maybe we should meet the keyboardists halfway. How about playing everything in the key of G? It's a snap for both guitarists and keyboardists, and nearly always sounds good! ;)

[GuitarKidd]

Fortunately we go to a pretty contemporary church.

No one is against any instrument... Except... 2 of our soundmen.

We actually rotate 4 soundmen. 2 of which, IMO, have an excellent ear for sound. The other 2 plain do not.

The 2 that do not continuously run the piano as the primary instrument. It drives and drowns out everything. You can't hear the bass guitar, barely the drums and of course the guitar is left to peak through when it can.

Unfortunately I don't know how soon or when it will get resolved. One of the 2 are the "Head Tech" who thinks he knows everything. And again he is very knowledgable about setting up a system. But he can't run it to sound good. About 3 years ago we bought a new JBL sub. Very nice. It's hardly audible when these 2 guys run the sound. We have digital drums and when the sub is off the bass drum sound like it's hitting a block of wood and the bass guitar is pretty much not existent.

I have advised many times that we need to set a standard on how the sound gets set up. Start with drums, then the bass, the the acoustic/rythm guitar then piano... But no it never happens...

People in the congregation can tell the difference as well. They know who is running sound by how well it sounds...

Since I am what I consider the Music Coordinator I am going to try and bring to head these issues of the sound and see what happens...

[Micter]

We need a National fast and prayer day for all the so called sound men that don't know what the heck they are doin'. LOL soundmen have been a bone of contention with guitarists since I can remember.

I don't play on our worship team but the lead guitarist will flat out rip on at least one song every service. That is one of the many reasons I go to that church. They let musicians do what fits the song and have no worries about doing so. I have noticed that most churches that stick to tradition (as in don't grow with the times) seem to shrivel up and die from with in. I have not seen a church grow that doesn't have an open mind to the younger crowd. If you think about it the church is called to win souls. The average age that someone totally repents and gives their heart to God has to be somewhere in the mid 20's. I haven't researched it but it does seem to be a pretty close estimate. If the old people in the congregation stop the growth due to tradition there is a problem in my book. Once in a while a church will put aside tradition and try something different and I believe that is where we find God's plan. Doing the same old same old because that is what we have always done is a lazy attitude and doesn't do anything to further God's kingdom.

Now the other side of the coin is elderly Christians have a wealth of knowledge and experience in spiritual battle and are sorley needed in the church. Bridging that gap between the elder and younger saints has always been a challange.

Whatever! Jesus Rocks! :biggrin:

[Jaybo]

At the same time - I don't feel that playing Eruption is an appropriate "worship" element. We have to be sure what we're doing is truly for God, not for our thirst for tube gain in a sanctuary.


What???

HEATHEN!!!!

:biggrin:

[dmock66]

I'm not saying I won't dispence Eruption on the congregation... I AM a guitarist, after all!!! I'm just sayin... :rofl:

[colefish]

Well....God DOES like guitar more! :lol:

...the Holy Spirit prefers face melting guitar solo's every song.

:lol: Amen! Preach it brother! :lol:

[Lazerjeebs]

I must be one of the few that's blessed to be in a church that embraces modern praise & worship music. We've got the drums, the percusionists, the keyboard player, a new bass player and me, the guitar player. ;)

We don't have any kind of dedicated sound man (although we need one very badly).

Over the years, I've been fortunate to play with many talented folks on praise & worship teams. But the team I'm with now, is probably the best ever. Usually, musically speaking, we fall way short of the mark. The keyboard is almost always too loud, or the drums are sometimes too loud. The guitar can rarely be heard, and when it can be heard, it's way too loud. Sometimes I don't know whether to cry or laugh! But what makes this worhip team so great and cool, is that before every service we pray, that the Lord would use us as instruments to usher in the presence of the Holy Spirit and the fostering of true spiritual worship in the body of Christ. We pray to remember that it's not about us, but about praising and worshipping God.

It's been so easy for me to say to anyone and everyone, "it doesn't matter what you sound like when you sing, God just calls us to make a joyful noise". It's a little harder to apply that to myself and others on the praise & worship team. It's so easy to get focused on trying so hard to sound good, that I forget, that old saying applies to us too! Ultimately, the Lord is our sound tech guy. So what we play in the natural, be it bad or good, if done with a right heart, can be made to sound like a piece of heaven for the congregation.

Well, just my two cents anyways! O:)

Salvador