Stage volume--how do you keep it under control?

[rkymtnhi]

This topic was posted at TDPRI as well. I know some of you post over there as well, but I thought I might get different opions if I posted at both locations....

This question may have multiple parts--I'm thinking as I'm typing....

I'm in a band that does original worship material along with some covers. We are just finishing recording a CD. Folks will most likely expect to hear some of the same sounds as we've recorded. I've got a fairly loud amp-Orange AD30HTC-and I'm going to be needing to crank it up a bit for the overdrive since that amp is all over the recordings. Our usual audience is teens and college groups, but we play Sunday morning church services as well.

First question: How are you guys keeping stage volume under control? I'm guessing that most of you either 1) run your signal into a preamp and directly out to the board or 2) use smaller wattage amps, mic them and run them really low. What does your church do--and does that solution still allow you to get great guitar tones?

Second Question: I started looking at Clearsonic's stuff (http://www.clearsonic.com/a2-4_amp_shield.html) to maybe construct some kind of amp rig to isolate the signal and cut down on volume. Do any of you have any experience with this product or similar products?

Third question: Put yourself in my shoes--what would you do? How would you go about capturing the recorded tones live but still at a suitable church volume?

[Wally]

I think you will have to find another solution for Sunday morning besides "cranking it" - an overdrive pedal, modelling amp, etc.

[Teleguy]

I use tiny amps, live, and usually um-mic'd unless it's a big place.

A Champ wasn't quite loud enough for clean headroom, but Tech 21 Trademark 10, and Vox 15w Valvetronix, work very well in my situation.

I just sold my 50w Valvetronix that I only used once, and could have done that job with the 15w easily.
I come from a background of big tube amps, but times (and ss amps) have changed. Who sez I'm set in my ways? :???:

With today's PA's, less is more. Mic'ing a small amp pushed is fine by me, keeps "stage" volume livable in even big places or outdoors, and I can achieve "my" sound more consistently.
Pretty much I point my lil' amp at my head, and blend sonically in the back line with the drummer and bass.
Works good for me Sun A.M.'s, and also mic'd up in bigger venues. I have no control over the outfront mix, but I can hear it coming back enough to blend, and to step forward when I solo or slide in a fill.

If I get a good feed folded back through the monitors, so much the better, but with it like described (pointed at my head and blended, amplitude-wise) that's just a gravy option. Nice, but not a must have.

[Crunchyriff]

I wish I could live w/small cabs...but I have yet to find any that sound remotely like a 4x12.

What I would suggest is to build a iso-box that is lined with damping material- something that you can break down to transport easily. If you have the room to haul a 4x12 cab, chances are you have room to haul this.

Another angle is of course, some OD boxes; as well as another amp such as the DSL Marshall series that will give up the goods at lower volumes than previous MV amps. There are no easy (convenient) answers to your problem. As one who uses (2) 4x12 cabs w two heads, and a 80watt 4x10 combo onstage, I have to be very sensible too about the venue. One thing I use on my JCM800 2204 (and it's one of THE LOUDEST 50 watt amps I've ever heard) is a THD hotplate. It allows me to get those great Marshall tones at respectible levels that won't get you kicked out of rooms.

There is another attenuation solution I am looking into, that supposedly rivals the hotplate and all other attenuators. If I find out it's true, I'll pass the word.

[rkymtnhi]

Attenuators.... that's another thought I suppose. I wonder how much they affect tone?

Isolation cabs sound interesting to me--I wonder how much it would cost to construct one. Alternatively, would aproximating an isolation cab by surrounding my existing cab with accoustic foam cut down volume enough to keep everyone's attention where it's supposed to be I wonder?

The cab I'm running is a 2x12 cab-loaded with 30 watt red fang speakers for a combined load of 60 watts into 16 ohms. I never thought that a 30 watt head would be so loud, but 30 watts of class A when driven could lead to some ringing ears. For most clubs this amount of volume would be acceptable (or even be considered underpowered), but quite a few (Sunday morning) churches seem to think that an accoustic guitar should be the loudest instrument on stage. At the church my wife and I attend, I can't pick the electric guitar out of the mix except if nobody else is playing and I'm listening REALLY closely. I'm guessing that the sound guy has a disposition against electric guitars. They make everyone run direct--and the tones coming out of the mains (when you can hear them) are nasty. I'm trying to help the church see the value of creating isolation spaces under their stage in the new building they will be constructing. I figure that a trapdoor, some extra plywood, a bit of accoustic foam, and some extra plugs could help make the church much more guitar freindly. That way a guitarist could drop his cab into the isolation chamber under the stage and let the tubes work if needed. The sound guy would still have ultimate control over the house mix, and the correct tone could be acheived without volume complaints. I've read that some big guitarists (Clapton and Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top) use this setup to accomplish what they need without the damaged ear drums. This isn't a small church, either... and the worship done there would be considered contemporary by most denominational standards--you'd think they'd love electric guitar.

I'm a 29 year old married guy--fairly conservative. I'm not a 15 year old 100 watt Marshall full stack turn it up to 10 kind of guy (although I love serving that crowd). I sincerly want to be able to lead folks into the throne room. I don't want to be a distraction. I do want to play excellently for my King, and create spaces where worship comes naturally for all people from the words and music. I do think that both of those components (words and music) are important. Something in this discussion is touching something I'm passionate about or I wouldn't be writing this much...

[Crunchyriff]

I'm not a 15 year old 100 watt Marshall full stack turn it up to 10 kind of guy

Neither am I. I'm 43 years old, and have two teenage boys! I also understand the difference between a concert, and P&W in the context of your musical approach; having done P&W over the last 14 years.

Like I said, there is a way to, again, I say "SENSIBLY", use your current gear in worship. Once in a while, I use my entire stage rig for P&W at church- with the gear I mentioned previously, and I don't trample the music or musicians, being as I am one of those guys who has to be told to "turn it up"...not "turn it down". And usually, I just bring my 80watt combo which is a loud one, too...if I so choose to use it that way. (and I don't)

There is nothing that ticks me off more than to be told to "turn it down", so I ALWAYS approach it from the opposite direction. :mrgreen: Sorta like when Jesus said not to choose the best seat at the table for yourself, and be told "this seat is for someone else"; but to sit elswhere, and then be told to "move over here" where you will be honored for your humility, instead of humbled for your self-serving nature.

It takes no talent to be the loudest player on the platform, or in a band. What takes talent and self-control, is to know yer place, and be a team player. That's what it's all about- you know that!

You know, a hotplate would be great for a 30watt head. You'd only have to reduce the output say, 4-8db on the Hotplate to achieve very nice results, with a minimum of, if any, tone alteration.

Like I said earlier, there is a new box out that claims to have ZERO impact on your tone, no matter how much reduction you use (which I need to "sniff-test" for myself). This is NOT the case with other attenuators. Usually, once you get up past -8db, things start squishing a bit and get a tad dull. The nice thing is, the THD Hotplate has "Bright" and "Deep" switches that compensate for this to a large degree once you go with heavier attenuation. Sorta like a "loudness" control on a stereo.

If you have the luxury of running yer rig down in an iso-chamber underneath the platform, that would be a BIG plus; but it sounds to me like you have a bigger obstacle to tackle- your soundman.

[refin]

Well,I'm a 49 year old worshipper....my signature says it all! :lol:
There are certain compromises you have to face as a live player......our band has decided to be flexible,but to be honest to ourselves and not book venues that "compromise" a stage punch volume.I've been playing through old tweed amps for years,and they sound mighty fine cranked to about 6 (these go to 12....eat your heart out,Spinal Tap).....but I have to use something in the front end to clean boost the signal for lower gigs.I also use 2 '80s model Fender Yale Reverbs, that sound good at low volumes.
It's already been suggested (correctly,I believe) to try a preamp or modeling amp....Page used a small Supro amp for Zeppelin I and II,and again on the solo for Stairway----yet we all saw the old (new then) plexi Marshalls live....and he still sounded like Page.Remember,whatever preamp or solution you choose has to be attached to your fingers,where your true signature tone lives.
Good luck and God Bless!

[Teleguy]

Yeah it's a drag when the soundman is predudiced against electric guitars!

A Tele can cut through the mix though, especially when you stay low when the soundman is riding levels, and turn it up for a well placed fill! :cool:

[lockingnut]

We go through the same thing. Depending on which sound guy we had I'd place my amp in different positions, up on a stand right behind me or on the floor off to the side, turned around, etc.. What was too loud for one wasn't loud enough for the other. I try to set it so I can hear myself and leave the rest to someone else. Everyone has their own idea of what balanced sound is and never ceases to amaze me how different that can be. I use a Cybertwin and it does pretty good at the levels we need irregardless of the sound guy.
It bothers me sometimes, about being asked to turn down too. The first team I played with was always on me about it but people would say never could hear me. One Sunday I turned off, set the volume on "0" and no one noticed. Played the whole setlist like that and I actually got complements. It was obvious after that they didn't really want an electric guitar in church, and that I belonged somewhere else. All we want to do is contribute. If I can't do that, then what's the point?

[SAguitar]

Hot Topic! The everlasting and ongoing battle. In our band, we put all the guitar amps in front of us, angled up, and right next to your stage monitor. We have also downsized to smaller combo amps. So you can dial in whatever you want right there and bring it up to a level you're comfortable with. I am now using either my Tech21 Trademark 60, or my Rivera 55 1-12. I can get what I consider great tone from either one. No, it doesn't give you enough soundwaves to lean against, but I'm comfortable with what I've got going.

Our basic stage level begins with the drums. Whatever level the drummer is playing at will determine the level each other member will have to rise to so they can hear themselves. Some of our drummers play with finesse, and some of them are slammers. So we have placed plexiglass shields around the drum kit, and then put some foam up inside of them for absorption. That has been a big help.

We will continue to work on this, not to lower the volume level for the congregation, but to improve clarity. We have to adhere to a sound level max according to city law (I think it's about 98db). Our soundmen measure the db level at the board and adjust accordingly. If we produce too much stage volume, the tech guys can't put anything from the instruments into the mains. With less stage volume rolling off the stage, the guys at the board are able to raise the levels in the house, and this has greatly improved the way things sound out front. It is easier to hear each instrument's part in the mix now.

[Wally]

One Sunday I turned off, set the volume on "0" and no one noticed. Played the whole setlist like that and I actually got complements. It was obvious after that they didn't really want an electric guitar in church, and that I belonged somewhere else. All we want to do is contribute. If I can't do that, then what's the point?

I chuckled when I read your post, but sadly I think the harsh reality is that in a lot of situations, our contributions as guitarists, especially on electric, aren't wanted. :cry: :banghead

[Wally]

Yeah it's a drag when the soundman is predudiced against electric guitars!

A Tele can cut through the mix though, especially when you stay low when the soundman is riding levels, and turn it up for a well placed fill! :cool:

I am thankful that I don't have to deal with a soundman. I regulate my own volume following the principal (mentioned) that I would rather be told to "turn it up". I finally resolved myself to the notion that as long as the Lord hears me playing, and hopefully the singers, since I am there to support them, I try not to worry if anyone else can hear me or not. I completely understand the frustration, however.


I think the prejudice against electric guitars (and guitars in general) is a topic worthy of it's own thread, so I 'm off to start one :cool:

[ptrallan01]

Several Times you have said something I think needs to be emphasized:

As Worship Musicians our job is to support the singers. That resonates with me in a special way. Our volume should be driven by the need to create a bed that the voices can ride on. This is true of every instrument in the band. When the piano is too loud they should be told to turn it down. We should also start emphasizing this with drummers so we don't have to get above them. Also we need to remember that as much as we love guitars many people do find them piercing and it is not our tone that is important but that bed or rather stream that the voices float on so we can worship together.

Peter

[Wally]

Well said Peter! I wonder how many churches have discussed the mission of the praise team with all involved, including the sound men? From the shared experiences here, I am led to believe that it isn't happening enough.

The "Are You Serving" thread got me to thinking and reading on the whole subject of Worship, Worship Music, the role of musicians, etc. Some of what I have read I agreed with, some was maddening, but a few things that I read kicked me in the head, and gave me cause to re-consider some of my opinions in this area. :oops:

[SAguitar]

This is a good topic! As a praise team, we our regularly reminded of our purpose and platform by our Worship Pastor. It's always a good reminder, and he let's us know where we are on the journey, and where we are going next.

By the way, all of you here are opening my mind and my heart to new things of God, and I thank y'all for that!

[jordan4168]

Have you ever considered a THD Hot Plate?

http://www.thdelectronics.com/products/hotplate.htm

try check those out, There made for that reason of keep stage volume down while still keeping your tone.

Just a thought