Question about direct to mixing board

[FUSION_21]

Hi everyone:yeah:

I'm getting ready to start playing with our P&W team at my church and they don't use amps. They play Chris Tomlin, Lincoln Brewster, etc. songs. The other electric guitar player goes thru some various pedals (fulldrive 2) into a DI box into the board. They also use Avion IEM. They also have an acoustic player. So I will be a second electric. My question is this: What would be the best (preferably not the most expensive) way for me to go direct? What pedals would work or should I look at a modeller. I have a POD XT but I can't get the sound I hear in my head out. Make sense.

I've searched and read the threads about going direct but they didn't really answer my question.

I currently play a 76' Les Paul Deluxe.

I hope I didn't ramble to much, I'm not getting enough sleep???

[FUSION_21]

Any ideas guys?:dunno:

[bobbymc]

My band dropped the amps a few years ago, due to space limitations on stage. I go through a Digitech GNX-2 straight into the board. You can also go from regular stomp boxes into a DI, then into the board. It all seems to work pretty well, but to my steadily failing ears, the sound isn't as good as going through the guitar amp. Maybe it's my imagination.

Not sure what your threshold is on "expensive", the GNX boxes range from around $200-300 and up. Stomp boxes and a good DI box is cheaper. Even though I'm not totally thrilled with my sound, I guess it's good enough though, since no one's complained.

Probably didn't help you much in the long run, did it? I know the guys at my church use the PODs, and the sound I hear is very good. So if you already have one, I'd give it a try for a while.

[FUSION_21]

I guess their church must have better acoustics. Do you have a DI box that you would recommend? I picked up a Bad Monkey today at lunch, I like the sound thru an amp but I will have to wait until tomorrow to try it at church.

[Crunchyriff]

I can whole-heartedly recommend the Sans-Amp line of analog direct-box gear.

Something along the lines of the SansAmp Tri-AC is a great "3 channel", programmable solution to go direct to console, and sounds great. Something more complex that affords you virtually any amp imaginable and then some is the SansAmp PSA 1.1 preamp.

FWIW, I'm using the PSA 1.1 (with AVIOM-based IEM'S) thru the foh console; I'm using a QSC HPR 122i powered monitor for "feedback guitar/amp interaction" stuff onstage that you can't do with IEM's alone when going direct; as well as for personal monitoring at home with my rig.

IMHO, the SansAmp stuff sounds noticeably better using a full-range system, rather than a guitar amp as that is what it's designed for...(remember, this gear consists of fully-produced guitar/amp/speaker sounds already) but still works quite well with a guitar amp. I think it sounds incredible- good enough that I'm not using tube amps anymore (at the moment) after 35 years of nothing but tube amps.

Food for thought.

[MrMike]

If you find the tone of the Bad Monkey into the board less than inspiring through the IEM's, the most cost-effective solution I can recommend would be a POD 2.0, with a foot controller if you can swing it. Since they're on the trailing edge of current technology, you can pick them up used pretty cheaply- less than $200 on ebay for the whole shootin' match. Does it sound and feel just like a real amp? Nope. But since your church has taken the silent stage approach, you'll probably have to learn to live with some compromises. Here are a few others:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Line-6-Floor-POD-Guitar-Effects-Pedal?sku=150446

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Line6-Floor-POD-Plus-Multi-Effects-Pedal?sku=150212

The sounds are useable and versatile. I would also second Crunchy's recommendation for the SansAmp stuff- mighty tasty!

Let us know how it goes!

[FUSION_21]

Crunchyriff: I read on one of the other threads where you talked about the
SansAmp Tri-AC. Does it need to run into a cab simulator or just straight into the board? I need to look into the SansAmp some more.

MrMike: The POD just doesn't seem to inspire me anymore. I can't seem to get a tone I like, so I end up spending more time tweaking than practicing.

I going up to the church in a couple of hours to jam with the P&W leader. I'll see if I can get a decent sound out of the POD or Bad Monkey. Say a prayer for me about my playing, I'm still a little rusty from a long layoff. I started playing guitar when I was 13 and played up until I was 28 and the for the last 9 years I've played off and on. Probably more off than on, I just have some kinks to work out. Plus playing for the leader the first time is a little nerve racking for me.

[MadHatter]

well... if my good friend Jaybo was still hanging around here...
he'd say...
just put your foot up on the monitor wedge, and let a face melting solo rip out... :guitar2: :guitar4: :guitar5: :guitar6:
lol

after everyone is done laughing at you... you'll be relaxed and ready to go

[FUSION_21]

That did cross my mind:yeah:

My luck I would slip off the monitor, fall flat on my face and break my Les Paul neck as I hit the ground.

[BuckyB]

I think the Pod series are among the best "direct to DI' boxes around. If you can't get a sound you like with that, I doubt you'll find anything else you'll like better. Just remember, when you're working with it at home, DO NOT plug it into a guitar amp. Your stereo should work better.

[Crunchyriff]

"your stereo should work better"

Yup. Many folks don't realize that gear like the BOSS GT8 GT PRO, POD, and many other modelers (whether digital OR analog) sound best through a full-range system.

WHY? All the speaker EQ curves of a real guitar amp, mic placement etc that you would normally setup for mic'ing a guitar amp are already factored into the settings already. It's already IN THERE, thus, a full-range speaker is the generally best means of sound reproduction. The SansAmp PSA 1.1 sounds HUGE and real through my full-range QSC powered monitor.

[FUSION_21]

At home I run my PodXT thru my active Tannoy monitors. It's not to bad of a sound but not what I really want. I might just be to picky.

[Crunchyriff]

At home I run my PodXT thru my active Tannoy monitors. It's not to bad of a sound but not what I really want. I might just be to picky.

You need more huevos- more wattage.

The QSC powered wedge I'm using has 500 watts of power. Lots of dynamic range & headroom there...plus plenty of power to make it sound "realistic"

[FUSION_21]

500 watts!!!! That would blow the rest of my hair out.

[LesStrat]

Listen to the POD through the PA. It will be different than your monitors at home.

Download additional patches for the POD. There are some really cool ones at the L6 Forum.

I've used the POD XTL off and on for 2 years. I had a POD 2.0 before that. Recently, when my amp had to return to its creator for some repairs, I rediscovered the beauty of the POD.

Find a usable sound. PLAY. Don't spend time tweaking.

BTW, I've decided that guitarists in general are NEVER happy with their tone. Sometimes I succumb to the same syndrome, then I remind myself that it PROBABLY is me and my ears, not my tone, that is off.

[BuckyB]

I always tell myself: I'm playing FIRST for God, SECOND for the congregation, and LASTLY for myself. God is more concerned with my heart than my tone. The congregation can't tell the difference in sound between a Les Paul and a Tele, much less between a modeler and a real amp. So all this fussing over tone, beyond a certain point becomes self-centered vanity, since it really is just to please myself. If I can't make good music with a nice modeler patch, I'm getting WAY too dependent on the hardware.

[MadHatter]

yes...BUT
I play 100% better if I'm inspired by great tone...
bland tone and I always feel uncomfortable... and have a hard time getting into the worship.

[BuckyB]

Cool. I was hoping to open a friendly can of worms here. :)

[FUSION_21]

I would agree 100% with tone making me more inspired. I seem to play better if I like the tone. Today I finally dialed in a tone at home that I really liked and played for about 3 hours. It was great:cool:

[scottpic]

I agree! I run a Marshall 60 Watt head into a 4*12 cab, using only the upper 2 speakers, and when the volume and gain are set right,
it just takes me to another place.:headphones:

Heaven here on earth, making a joyful noise to the Lord:)

[FUSION_21]

Well I finally got to practice last week with the P&W Team. My POD XT actually sounded really good thru the house speakers. Now if I can only get used to the IEM's. Kept falling out, couldn't hear myself (that's my own fault) I was turning my channel up on the wrong AVIOM mixer. I have my second practice this week, I've got 5 more songs to learn by Thursday. :yeah:

[stephen]

Cool!

Keep us updated.

[LesStrat]

Praise God for a good report!

I just got in a POD X3Live!

Now I have to program it before I can sell off the XTL.

[FUSION_21]

I still need to dial in a little less crunch for a couple of songs, but that shouldn't be to hard. I also need to get a foot controller for it before I start playing on Sunday's. It would look kinda funny with me up there having to push buttons while I'm trying to play. I guess I could use my nose.:hmm:

[hotraman]

Praise God for a good report!

I just got in a POD X3Live!

Now I have to program it before I can sell off the XTL.

That's sweet!
I've had mine since Nov and am enjoying it alot.
I'm still holding onto my Tonelab SE.
But the Dual tone feature is nice.
I used Line Monkey to download the demo patches created by Spiritguitar.
This guy played the guitars on that song "Spirit in the Sky"
Looking foward to hearing them today.
Let us know how you get on with your X3L

[hotraman]

I still like playing my modelers thru an Atomic Reactor.
But I have the amp off stage and facing away from the people.
I let the FOH control the overall sound. I do use my wireless guitar system to walk back to the sound board & set EQ for the modelers. I try to keep it pretty simple. Most times our mixers deal with volume/tone issues. Marshall does sound different than Vox, but I'm not sure all of our guys would know the difference.
If you have a killer PA and great IEM system, let that work for you!

[hotraman]

Well I finally got to practice last week with the P&W Team. My POD XT actually sounded really good thru the house speakers. Now if I can only get used to the IEM's. Kept falling out, couldn't hear myself (that's my own fault) I was turning my channel up on the wrong AVIOM mixer. I have my second practice this week, I've got 5 more songs to learn by Thursday. :yeah:

What kind of IEM's are you using?
I went thru several before I got used to them.
If you can get a stereo mix, you'll love 'em.
Its hard for me to go back to wedges now.

[Crunchyriff]

I always tell myself: I'm playing FIRST for God, SECOND for the congregation, and LASTLY for myself. God is more concerned with my heart than my tone. The congregation can't tell the difference in sound between a Les Paul and a Tele, much less between a modeler and a real amp. So all this fussing over tone, beyond a certain point becomes self-centered vanity, since it really is just to please myself. If I can't make good music with a nice modeler patch, I'm getting WAY too dependent on the hardware....

...Cool. I was hoping to open a friendly can of worms here. :)
I was just going to ask you- do you want your steak cooked the way YOU like it, or the way I like it...or, does it matter ? :hmm:

IMHO, there is nothing wrong with being specific- even in tone. There IS a point however, where you just gotta let it go and play. Getting caught up in the Lord is certainly better than getting caught up in tone.

:)

[FUSION_21]

Crunchyriff: As long as you don't like your steak rare I could eat one the way you like it.:) To me it's not so much about tone but more about not sounding fizzy with the PodXT. Don't get me wrong I still want a good tone, but I can compromise on the tone if it gets rid of the fizz. I'll have to see how it sounds today. I picked up a new guitar last week and it's got DiMarzio Evolutions in it. I was playing a squire with single coils in it. I'm sure I'll have some adjusting to do on the POD.

Hotraman: I'm not sure what the IEM's are. I wasn't paying to much attention, I was just a little nervous to say the least. I think I'm going to try the IEM's that hook over the ear today. That should solve the falling out of my ear problem. I'll let you know what brand they are.

[indianrock]

This thread has covered most of the basics about getting good sound with a modeler and no guitar amp. If in-ear monitors work then you've covered the whole topic. I tried some, but my initial research indicated I would need to spend several hundred dollars per pair and possibly get custom ear molds done to really be happy with in-ear. So we've decided to stick with our wedge monitors for now. So the other piece of the equation is hearing what you need in the wedges to 1) play with inspiration and 2) not blast the congregation with stage volume. Many of us have inexperienced sound folks so there is always a battle to get the monitor volumes right. I'm leaning towards an active wedge for myself so I can control the volume on stage.

I know, this is opposed to the conventional wisdom. But when you play multiple services with different sound techs and the monitor volume jumps 20% up or down from one service to the next you have to do something. I've had to interrupt a worship set to ask for volume adjustments too many times. Crunchy, you mentioned QSC powered monitors, but those seem pretty pricey. Seen this one? Behringer eurolive B215A

[hotraman]

This thread has covered most of the basics about getting good sound with a modeler and no guitar amp. If in-ear monitors work then you've covered the whole topic. I tried some, but my initial research indicated I would need to spend several hundred dollars per pair and possibly get custom ear molds done to really be happy with in-ear. So we've decided to stick with our wedge monitors for now. So the other piece of the equation is hearing what you need in the wedges to 1) play with inspiration and 2) not blast the congregation with stage volume. Many of us have inexperienced sound folks so there is always a battle to get the monitor volumes right. I'm leaning towards an active wedge for myself so I can control the volume on stage.

I know, this is opposed to the conventional wisdom. But when you play multiple services with different sound techs and the monitor volume jumps 20% up or down from one service to the next you have to do something. I've had to interrupt a worship set to ask for volume adjustments too many times. Crunchy, you mentioned QSC powered monitors, but those seem pretty pricey. Seen this one? Behringer eurolive B215A

Indian Rock;
I can totally relate to your situation.
We use volunteer techs. They do the best they can, but it was really rough when they were controlling my mix thru an Aux send from our board.
Some of our musicians use mackie 300 , running into Aviom. They are able to do their own stage mix. I just have to remind them not to get too loud.

I , too went thru a few IEM ( Shure E5, among others) I ended up with Westone Um2 dual driver with the sponge comfy ear plugs. The dual drivers really help capture the low end of my guitars.
I like being able to stereo mix the band/vocals. I even figured out how to put in the pastor's mic, choir mics thru a Aux send.
Let us know how you are coming along.
Steve

[indianrock]

I think all I need is an individual wedge volume control that mounts on a mike stand -- Rolls makes some devices that might work. I already have their PM50 and Pm 351 but those are designed to distribute to headphones. I see the Westone Um2 in-ear phones are about $275. Perhaps in the future. At the moment I don't want to have to run any more cables on the stage for things like Aviom or HearBack. In-ears presume a couple of things -- sound techs that won't blow your ears, worship team willing to be on stage five minutes early to get the buds in the ears properly -- you also need a mike to provide room sounds to the ear mix. More complication than we want to deal with at the moment. I thought of having a second sound check before 2nd service, but it may not be practical with some folks visiting in the sanctuary and until the room is packed I'm not sure how much the sound check tells you.

Randy
http://coolcalvary.com