Spiritual Gifts

[Micter]

I want to find out who believes what and why concerning spiritual gifts. Things like healing, prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, etc.

Oh and if anyone operates in a perticular gift let me know what it is. ;)

[Kitty]

There are several "lists" in scripture which name particular gifts -- some gifts are on one list and different gifts are on another -- but many are mentioned in each instance.

My view is fairly simple. The Holy Spirit is my gift, and He 'operates' in whatever manner he chooses at the time. I do have some particular leanings, but I believe He is able to work in whatever way He chooses through me or anyone else who will yield to Him.

God is just way too big for any box we could possibly come up with.

I'm sure others will have more detailed or different views, and those views are just as legitimate and scriptural as mine. It might help the conversation if we knew why you are asking... where are you coming from?

Kitty

[Diana J.]

Seems like there was an interesting thread already posted
on this topic, but now I can't find it.
Or maybe it was on your old website Kitty? Is there anyway
you can look and retrieve or move it?

[davesg]

I am a Pentacostal, and do believe that all the gifts of the Spirit are still available to the church to use for God's Glory. But that doesn't mean that I believe they are being used properly all of the time. As in the first century church, they are being missused more often than not. I think that is one of the reasons for a lot of the confusion on the subject. Paul, in the book of 1 Corinthians chapter 14, admonished the church for failing to properly use these gifts of God. We still haven't learned to use them properly, but when we do follow the spiritual guidelines, look out God is gonna move. If we understand that these gifts are there to use as tools for the advancement of God's kingdom, not for our own self glorification, they are powerful weapons in our arsenal. It is much like a carpenters toolbox. He needs hammers, saws, tape measures, & squares to do his job properly. Without the proper tools the project doesn't get done. And if he only has or uses a few of the tools, then the job would not be done right. Take away his tape, or his square, and ask him to build a house. It might get built, but the foundation will be crooked and the doors might not shut right, ect. In the same manner, I think that by not useing all the gifts of the Spirit, or useing them improperly we are not going to be able to serve the Lords purpose to the full measure that we could by doing it God's way. We must also understand that not all gifts are for all people. It is us working together that they will all come into play. Since we are uniquely and wonderfully made, God uses our uniqueness to His advantage. Many churches today don't allow the congregations to become involved in ministry, or the opposite happens and people are given the opportunity to be involved and won't. Either way this hinders us from accomplishing the work that needs to be done.

Find your gift or gifts, use them properly, advance the kingdom of God. We were not created to sit on the sidelines and watch others fight the spiritual battles, we have been created to become warriors for Christ. The gifts are our weapons and our armour. Without them, we fail.

[Micter]

Dave

Great reply. Thanks!

So if I use a screwdriver as a prybar that isn't a good thing? I gree that spiritual gifts are not only used improperly but actually dispised as the Word of God puts it.

[Jaybo]

Paul wrote those words as a way to stop people from glorifying themselves, glorifying others, and being devisive.

And because we're so awesome, we use the "gifts" teaching as a way to glorify ourselves, glorify others and be devisive. @@

Paul said "Look, even if in a particular area, you seem to excel at something more than another - it's not YOU, it's God. Nobody is inherently better than anybody, or closer to God - anything that we accomplish is all God, and even a 'talent' is a gift from God."

Somehow we have turned that into "Oh - look at my talent".

We take God out of the equation - and put "OUR GIFTING" into the spotlight.

We start to rely on our strengths, and what we think we can accomplish through our "gifts". We get out of faith, reliance and servitude.

Of course, how we in the West have turned the gospel into an entirely self-centric belief system is another topic!

[Micter]

Paul wrote those words as a way to stop people from glorifying themselves, glorifying others, and being devisive.

And because we're so awesome, we use the "gifts" teaching as a way to glorify ourselves, glorify others and be devisive. @@

Paul said "Look, even if in a particular area, you seem to excel at something more than another - it's not YOU, it's God. Nobody is inherently better than anybody, or closer to God - anything that we accomplish is all God, and even a 'talent' is a gift from God."

Somehow we have turned that into "Oh - look at my talent".

We take God out of the equation - and put "OUR GIFTING" into the spotlight.

We start to rely on our strengths, and what we think we can accomplish through our "gifts". We get out of faith, reliance and servitude.

Of course, how we in the West have turned the gospel into an entirely self-centric belief system is another topic!

To the original question. Do you operate in any spiritual gifts?

What I see in your post (and please correct me if I am wrong ) is a stance against spiritual gifts in general. Taking in to consideration the scriptures as a whole how do you get to that position? I mean, I Cor 14:1 Says to eagerly seek spiritual gifts especially the gift of Prophecy. I Thess 5:20 Despise not prophesyings. etc.. etc.. Doesn't it take quite a lot of faith to step out in the gifts?

Just wondering.

[Jaybo]

Ah yes. I am the master of off topic ranting. lol

(and good to see somebody else keeps my hours!)

I believe that there are "spiritul gifts".

I get uncomfortable when they're seen as abilities distinct from Christ, and that we don't look to God - but instead look to the person gifted with prophecy, or the person 'gifted' with healing.

It becomes like the modern day job market where everything is specialized, and we don't, or can't do anything else because it's not in our job description. And instead of faith in Christ, we put our faith in our talents, or the perceived talents of another.

It does take faith to operate in the "giftings", because it means we have to listen to, and trust God, and respond in the way He asks us to.


But, honestly - I don't have any real answers about very few people ever have prophecied, or why some people get healed, and others don't, or any of those things.

We should be willing conduits, as Kitty said - and also be able to recognize TRUE workings of God, vs. workings of flesh.

Anyways....

To FINALLY answer your question... lol

If I had to say I felt that one "gift" was evident in my life it would be "discernment".

(Not as a theological policeman - but in certain dealings I've had, and places I've been led)

[Kitty]

Seems like there was an interesting thread already posted
on this topic, but now I can't find it. Or maybe it was on your old website Kitty?

Sorry, I don't recall anything like that Diana. But then again, I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday. :hmm:

[davesg]

OK, we all seem to agree that there is alot of misuse of these things called spiritual gifts. But you can't just dismiss the gifts because someone doesn't operate them in a proper manner, or gives more glory to the gift instead of the giver of the gift. We actually need to spend more time in our churches teaching the difference between useing the gifts properly and not. If people are taught the proper Biblical use of the gifts and how to discern the fakes from the real, wouldn't that improve the situation. But instead of proper teaching, I have heard a lot of garbage taught. Doctrines of man get involved frequently in these sessions. And if you look at the biblical attitudes, you are in for a war against those false thoughts. But that doesn't mean we should just give up. I actually believe that we need to push forward in these areas. The father of lies would like nothing better than to shut down the proper use of the spiritual gifts. That way he wins.

As for my gift, I have operated in several through the years, but discernment seems to be the gift that I am most used in.

[Jaybo]

But you can't just dismiss the gifts because someone doesn't operate them in a proper manner, or gives more glory to the gift instead of the giver of the gift.

-I think I'm leaning there.

But maybe - let's define what "spiritual gifts" means.

In my mind, when I hear that phrase - it means special powers ceded out to certain individuals, and they have the ability to do things that other Christians can't.

Is that in any way accurate? :dunno:

I'm not sure that "spritual gifts" is even a good translation of the original letter.

I'm not trying to be argumentative - but am very leary of anything that divides, or becomes experiential based, and spiritual showmanship.

If everybody has the ability to hear from God, and we all have access to Him - then what does THAT mean in the light of many "gifting" beliefs???

Can't wait to read the replies! (I'll be in bed soon though) :D

[davesg]

In my mind, when I hear that phrase - it means special powers ceded out to certain individuals, and they have the ability to do things that other Christians can't.

Is that in any way accurate? :dunno:



I would not agree with the special powers concept. It is more, in my opinion, a gift that when used properly, allows the person to become a conduit of God's power. A vessel for God's use. Not a power that someone has bestowed upon them to use indescriminately. They do not become superman or something like that. To be properly used, one must humble themselves before the Lord. Not exalt themselves before man. The "special powers" concept is one of the reasons many missuse the gifts. They think themselves to be holier than thou, when they believe that. But by understanding that they are noting more than a vessel, a tool of the Lord, they then understand that God can use a donkey if he wants. When one is used, be thankful that God trust you enough to use you. Not proud that you are special.

[Micter]

Jaybo

I think your beliefs on spiritual gifts is in line with most churches these days. I can't agree with it though. A spiritual gift isn't anything other than the power of God manifested through someone's life in a certain way for the edification of the church. How is the church edified otherwise?

[mattd]

i would define a spiritual gift as anything that anything a believer can do particularly well that benefits the church as a whole. what's listed in the NT is just a sample of the gifts that God gives us, although i don't have scripture to back me up on that point right now.


as for mine in particular, i believe that I have been given a teaching gift. and it wasn't until i was really involved with church and asked to teach one sunday that i realized that. since then i've been a sunday school sub as well as teaching the youth sunday nights.

[Crunchyriff]

A spiritual gift, at base level is something you have or you don't... much like other abilities.

I'm a musician & singer. For whatever reason, God gave me that in my DNA, and in my soul. It's what I have been given to equip me to be who I was created to be. I do have other abilities, too. They are complimentary or secondary gifts/abilities. all part of who I am.

take that into the "spiritual". The giftings that were given me ( I didn't ask for them) are to serve specific functions within the body of Christ. They can manifest anytime God so chooses to. I am NOT in control of them other than I've been given the choice to walk in obedience with them, or ignore them. I can't "make them happen", nor can I manufacture an "experience". To even think of doing so scares the daylights out of me. I'm not necessarily 'comfortable' using these gifts (at least one or two) because I full well know it ISN'T me; and without the blood of Christ I'm so unworthy to even presume I have them, let alone truly be a vehicle for His will to execute them.

I would like to address "experience". Now I don't go chasing after spiritual goosebumps. (I chase after God and His Son. His Spirit helps me.) But I WILL say that our God IS an experiential God. From cover to cover, the Bible is strewn with Holy and Divine experience. They were all at God's doing, and in His way and, IN HIS TIME. God first tried to re-establish his relationship with man at Sinai. HE wanted them to experience and KNOW Him. Instead, His presence was so terrifying, that the throng of millions sent Moses to go talk to God for them. They would have nothing to do with a personal encounter with Yahweh. "You go do it for us, and we'll do what He says" was their response. Imagine how God felt that day!

Each of you here has had an experience with God whether you know it or not. The day the Holy Spirit convicted you of personal sin, and you repented, you had a personal encounter with God. But that was just the beginning of the relationship, and some folks, sadly, never get past that.

For me, I follow and serve a real, live LIVING GOD, ( not just script & text on pages of paper) a God of power & might, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Holy, Wonderful, & Awesome; who says that "He is the same yesterday today, and forever"; and that "He is the Lord, He changes not". He also says "remember not the former things of old, for behold, I do a NEW THING.'

Some folks forget that these are ALL a part of who HE IS . Or they just don't want to deal with it. Dry dead 'religion' is much easier, certainly more explainable... and more predictable.

Shame on those who "deify" gifts or who relegate them as some sort of merit badge, or playthings to impress and trifle with. Woe to you, and may God in His mercy spare you & make you the effective vessels you should be..

But shame on also, the ones who also say" "spiritual gifts are dead and not for this time". Woe to you, because God is a God of the living, not the dead, He changes NOT; and you have a form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof.

May God, indeed help & have mercy on us all.

[Micter]

I do want to say there is a difference between "talents" and "Spiritual Gifts". A talent I have would be the ability to play guitar. A spiritual gift I have is the gift of tongues. (as an example)

[Kitty]

I do want to say there is a difference between "talents" and "Spiritual Gifts".

Regardless of whether or not that's correct, I got both my talents and my spiritual gifts for free..... FROM GOD. They're all His to use, so differentiating between the two is not really all that important the way I see it. I suppose someone else might have an important reason to draw a line between the two, but I don't.

Kitty

[Micter]

I do want to say there is a difference between "talents" and "Spiritual Gifts".

Regardless of whether or not that's correct, I got both my talents and my spiritual gifts for free..... FROM GOD. They're all His to use, so differentiating between the two is not really all that important the way I see it. I suppose someone else might have an important reason to draw a line between the two, but I don't.

Kitty

The topic is "Spiritual Gifts" that's the only reason for drawing a line. I consider my talent in music to be useful to God's kingdom but in all honesty my talent could be used for other purposes. Ungodly as it may be I could play music that glorifies anything other than God. I don't BTW. In my younger days I sang about all kinds of sickening garbage but that was the old man. Thanks be to God that the old man is dead!

[bek]

I want to find out who believes what and why concerning spiritual gifts. Things like healing, prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, etc.

Oh and if anyone operates in a perticular gift let me know what it is. ;)

The Bible teaches there are gifts and I see no reason to believe God has changed His mind about us needing them. They would show up more often if we were closer to Him, but the modern American church has a weakness for putting ourselves first. Result: not much listening for the still, small voice and not a lot of willingness to inconvenience ourselves by being available for service. Result: not nearly so much manifestation of the gifts as we should see. I personally receive various anointings to perform what is needed in my immediate family (as head of house, it's my place) -- mostly healings, wisdom & discernment. So far as a specific, public-use gift, it would probably be wisdom, but I don't do public ministry, especially since we left the church I where was playing guitar.

[stephen]

I believe that God had His hand on my life, even while I was fully engulfed in my sin, and while I was there, He guided me to learn guitar. he didnt "gift" me with the ability to play guitar, I had to learn how to play. That is a talent that was learned.

When I surrendered my life to His will, I began to learn about things, such as Spiritual Gifts. The gift of speaking in tongues is one. I dont normally talk about it. I keep it too myself, and I do not flaunt it.

99.9 percent of the time, I only pray in tongues in my private prayer closet. In the over 25 years that I have been anointed with this gift, I can count on my right hand how many times I have openly displayed it. Those times that I spoke out loud, was because there was interpretation, and I was definitely lead by the Holy Spirit to do so, and not by mans urging.

Someone recently at church felt lead to educate me about tongues, because I obviously didnt know about it, and they wanted me to be filled with the Holy Spirit just like them. @@

I had to tell them, I was filled with the Spirit, and I do speak in tongues. They seemed shocked. So I told them that what Paul, totally inspired by God said:

I Corinthians 14:18-19, 18) I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19) But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

And I pointed out, that Paul had to tell the Corinthians that he spoke in tongues. He didnt openly display this gift, because he didnt want the Ooohs! and Aaaahs! from man, and he would rather that, "Faith comes by hearing, hearing the Word of God", not by hearing an unknown tongue.

I myself, I do not downplay the gifts of the Spirit, but I strongly believe, that I have to be a good stewart of the gifts that God has given me, and that I should not flaunt them or misuse them, but rather, I need to be lead by the Holy Spirit in these gifts.

[Micter]

I want to find out who believes what and why concerning spiritual gifts. Things like healing, prophecy, tongues, interpretation of tongues, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, etc.

Oh and if anyone operates in a perticular gift let me know what it is. ;)

The Bible teaches there are gifts and I see no reason to believe God has changed His mind about us needing them. They would show up more often if we were closer to Him, but the modern American church has a weakness for putting ourselves first. Result: not much listening for the still, small voice and not a lot of willingness to inconvenience ourselves by being available for service. Result: not nearly so much manifestation of the gifts as we should see. I personally receive various anointings to perform what is needed in my immediate family (as head of house, it's my place) -- mostly healings, wisdom & discernment. So far as a specific, public-use gift, it would probably be wisdom, but I don't do public ministry, especially since we left the church I where was playing guitar.

Bek

I feel the exact same way. I see the church shying away from spiritual warfare and turning towards a watered down Gospel that is self serving. It seems more important to build churches than it is to build warriors. I got so tired of what I call the "church program" that I just about quit going altogether. I got tired of service after service that God flat out didn't show up to.

[Brian]

Many times in our first church I saw Spiritual Gifts faked or misued. My response to those who demonstrated gifts in that way was if the gift was real, and was supernatural, but being used in an unscriptrural manner, that the Holy Spirit would not bestow an unscriptural gift, so then where did it come from? That raised a few eyebrows in a charismatic church. I felt like the kid in The Emporer's New Clothes.

But the Scriptures describe Spiritual Gifts. Who am I to dispute it? I humbly submit that on a few occasions I have received a Word of Knowledge. Of those I quickly recall, one was a revelation of a joyous event for my immediate family. I spoke of this to others and gave God the glory in testimony. The next revelation I recall was a tragic event, full of heartache for my extended family and I. I could not bear what He spoke to me, so I told myself it was my imagination, and did not take action I should have. As the event unfolded I cried out to God that this gift was too painful, and I asked Him to remove it from me. I later submitted and told Him that I would accept any gifting that was His will. *Several years later another revelation was given to me for a friend, and I shared it with my friend in a group of friends. But I didn't actually know He was speaking to me. Almost immediately the event came to pass, and then I knew. Obediently, when asked how I knew, I said that it was a "gift"; a message from the Lord. Days later my friend thanked me. A seed was planted, and eventually my friend was born again.*

I've mentioned a couple of times here the Word of Knowledge that was given to me *from a guest speaker* while visiting a church when my beautiful bride and I celebrated our 25th anniversary on Kauai. Boy I was skeptical, it just seemed so "out there". But 3 weeks later it came to pass, and I am still obediently fulfilling what I was called to.

Again I relate this in all humbleness. The Gifts are to be used in love to exhort others and build up the church, not to satisfy my, or others personal desires for acceptance, status, power, or what have you.

*left out important details, I needed to clarify

[Micter]

Well put Brian.

Thanks for sharing.

I recall a time many years ago I was at a special service. The Pastor/Evangelist that was preaching stopped and looked around as if he was looking for someone perticular. I told my buddy next to me that he was going to call me out. The pastor looked at me and says "Brother in the blue shirt, will you come down here?" I walked down to the front and this man told me everything in my heart. Things that I had never told anyone. Only God knew some of the things going on. He told me about my calling which was spot on. He told me about my struggles and warned me to stand against the devil's using my struggles to destroy what Gos was doing. He laid everything out for me. All 100% true. I have that word on tape and listen to it periodically just to get my spirit sturred up. The bottom line, that prophetic gifting has helped me through many trials and tribulations. It's helping me right now as I go through one of the most difficult trials I've even known. God's giftings are so necessary to the spiritual health of the church but man sets them aside as if they are some voodoo. It eats at my heart to see men think they know more than God when it comes to his giftings.

[Brian]

...I consider my talent in music to be useful to God's kingdom but in all honesty my talent could be used for other purposes. Ungodly as it may be I could play music that glorifies anything other than God. I don't BTW. In my younger days I sang about all kinds of sickening garbage but that was the old man. Thanks be to God that the old man is dead!

Clearly, Scriptures tell us many times the Holy Spirit works in and guides those who do not follow and love the Lord, to fulfill His plan. Does Scripture tell us of an instance where the Holy Spirit gave supernatural power to pagans?

[Micter]

...I consider my talent in music to be useful to God's kingdom but in all honesty my talent could be used for other purposes. Ungodly as it may be I could play music that glorifies anything other than God. I don't BTW. In my younger days I sang about all kinds of sickening garbage but that was the old man. Thanks be to God that the old man is dead!

Clearly, Scriptures tell us many times the Holy Spirit works in and guides those who do not follow and love the Lord, to fulfill His plan. Does Scripture tell us of an instance where the Holy Spirit gave supernatural power to pagans?

the only thing I can think of is the witch of Endor that called Samuel back from the dead.

[Jaybo]

Jaybo

I think your beliefs on spiritual gifts is in line with most churches these days. I can't agree with it though. A spiritual gift isn't anything other than the power of God manifested through someone's life in a certain way for the edification of the church. How is the church edified otherwise?

-"special powers ceded out to certain individuals, and they have the ability to do things that other Christians can't. "

That's not my belief of them, but what I see as being taught. I agree that that is a false idea of what Paul was trying to explain to the Corinthians about Spiritual manifistations at their gatherings.



Now I don't go chasing after spiritual goosebumps. (I chase after God and His Son. His Spirit helps me.) But I WILL say that our God IS an experiential God.

-Good point.

Personally, I've seen so much manipulated "experience" - that I tend to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Evidence of Christianity, God or gifts is not a Sunday go to meeting Charismatic display.

Growing up, my church experiences were weird. My old man was a pastor; we started out Pentecostal, then became Word of Faith, then settled down to some sort of Evangelical, then went on staff at Melodyland - and whatever that was, then somewhere around the early 90's discovered Grace.

I've been at places where people ONLY want experience, and count manifistations as the evidence and goal of Christianity.

I believe it is LOVE that is supposed to be the evidence! Helping the poor, giving of yourself, being a servant, THAT is how one really experiences Christ - and proves that they are a follower.

To me, most churches I've been to reflect Matt 23:

**Their lives are perpetual fashion shows, embroidered prayer shawls one day and flowery prayers the next. They love to sit at the head table at church dinners, basking in the most prominent positions, preening in the radiance of public flattery, receiving honorary degrees, and getting called 'Doctor' and 'Reverend.'**


But while I don't like the show, or where much of the "gifts" ideas lead to, Micter made a great point:

The bottom line, that prophetic gifting has helped me through many trials and tribulations. It's helping me right now as I go through one of the most difficult trials I've even known.

- That's awesome!

[Strat-tastic]

Hhm, spiritual gifts. I would say that I do speak in tongues, and I believe God has blessed me with prophecies, though this is definitely under development and the Lord's tutelage.

Regarding music. I would say that music can be a spiritual gift, it is possible to play prophetically, to drive evil spirits away. Remember David playing for Saul. I have been told on occasions that I can play in this annointing, for which I praise God so much, for His extravagant generosity.

[Brian]

...I consider my talent in music to be useful to God's kingdom but in all honesty my talent could be used for other purposes. Ungodly as it may be I could play music that glorifies anything other than God. I don't BTW. In my younger days I sang about all kinds of sickening garbage but that was the old man. Thanks be to God that the old man is dead!

Clearly, Scriptures tell us many times the Holy Spirit works in and guides those who do not follow and love the Lord, to fulfill His plan. Does Scripture tell us of an instance where the Holy Spirit gave supernatural power to pagans?

the only thing I can think of is the witch of Endor that called Samuel back from the dead.

I too am wondering about musical abilities being a supernatural gifting as opposed to a God given talent given before I was saved that is now used to glorify Him. About the witch of En Dor, I'm not sure feats of sorcery count, even if the outcome is in God's will. The Holy Spirit isn't mentioned in 1 Samuel 28:7-14, or when Pharoah's magicians duplicated Moses' feats. Elymas (Bar-Jesus) was already a socerer when he became a believer and was baptized but gifts he wanted were not given when his motive was status and power. Balaam is an interesting story too but...

[Brian]

...Regarding music. I would say that music can be a spiritual gift, it is possible to play prophetically, to drive evil spirits away. Remember David playing for Saul. I have been told on occasions that I can play in this annointing, for which I praise God so much, for His extravagant generosity.

Music evokes memories, emotions... My playing has done this before and after being saved, though now I play to glorify Him even in my secular playing, through lifestyle evengelism. I understand Micter's point.

[Jaybo]

Interesting thoughts.

I would say that the "list" of gifts isn't meant to be the final say on how God will move through us.

Maybe guitar playing isn't the gift - but ministering through it, or playing or writing with it in a certain way would be.

[Micter]

...I consider my talent in music to be useful to God's kingdom but in all honesty my talent could be used for other purposes. Ungodly as it may be I could play music that glorifies anything other than God. I don't BTW. In my younger days I sang about all kinds of sickening garbage but that was the old man. Thanks be to God that the old man is dead!

Clearly, Scriptures tell us many times the Holy Spirit works in and guides those who do not follow and love the Lord, to fulfill His plan. Does Scripture tell us of an instance where the Holy Spirit gave supernatural power to pagans?

the only thing I can think of is the witch of Endor that called Samuel back from the dead.

I too am wondering about musical abilities being a supernatural gifting as opposed to a God given talent given before I was saved that is now used to glorify Him. About the witch of En Dor, I'm not sure feats of sorcery count, even if the outcome is in God's will. The Holy Spirit isn't mentioned in 1 Samuel 28:7-14, or when Pharoah's magicians duplicated Moses' feats. Elymas (Bar-Jesus) was already a socerer when he became a believer and was baptized but gifts he wanted were not given when his motive was status and power. Balaam is an interesting story too but...

I thought about Balaam's ass too. :D I mean a talking donkey?

[Crunchyriff]

Gee I've met a few people who talk out their donkey... :D

[Crunchyriff]

I do want to say there is a difference between "talents" and "Spiritual Gifts". A talent I have would be the ability to play guitar. A spiritual gift I have is the gift of tongues. (as an example)

Yes, agreed, I was simply using the music gifiting as an example of natural gifts/talents given by God. The spiritual ones are also chosen for you and I by God.

[Micter]

Gee I've met a few people who talk out their donkey... :D

LOL rofl

[Brian]

...Maybe guitar playing isn't the gift - but ministering through it, or playing or writing with it in a certain way would be.

Considering who/what I was before I came to Christ :embarassed: I'd say it is a supernatural gift! :yeah:

[Micter]

I wanted to add to the discussion............

From the gospel of Mark

16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

How many here have actually witnessed any of these things? This is scriptural and no time frame is set so I have to believe it's going on somewhere. Just for the record I have seen demons cast out and have been involved in the process. It's the weirdest feeling I can't describe it but needless to say it's scary as all get out. I would do it again in a heartbeat if the situation arose but I sure don't want to look for it.

The situation was a teenage male sitting directly behind me manifested in a church service. He kicks the back of my chair and falls on the floor. He is cussing like a sailor. I began to pray for him and all of the sudden he hisses like a snake and starts foaming at the mouth while slithering on the floor. I'm thinking to myself "I don't want to cast that thing out! It's fine right where it is" but God took control of the situation and the kid was delivered. Very strange! That was in 1998 IIRC. I haven't seen anything like it since.

[Crunchyriff]

For me, I really hesitate to talk much about what God has done with/thru me in the realm of spiritual gifts on a public forum anymore- I'm not comfortable with how it might be interpreted, quite honestly, with regard to motive. That said, it's all God and not "me" anyway.

One thing I will offer is that which Brian brought up- I too have had the "word of knowledge" thing happen, far more than once (though they don't come out of me like PEZ dispenser)- both in ministry and in regards to my personal life. "Discernment" often goes hand-in-hand with this gift.

Suffice it to say that I DO believe God's manifestations of all the spiritual gifts still happen. As HE sees fit.

[Micter]

For me, I really hesitate to talk much about what God has done with/thru me in the realm of spiritual gifts on a public forum anymore- I'm not comfortable with how it might be interpreted, quite honestly, with regard to motive. That said, it's all God and not "me" anyway.

One thing I will offer is that which Brain brought up- I too have had the "word of knowledge" thing happen, far more than once (though they don't come out of me like PEZ dispenser)- both in ministry and in regards to my personal life. "Discernment" often goes hand-in-hand with this gift.

Suffice it to say that I DO believe God's manifestations of all the spiritual gifts still happen. As HE sees fit.

I understand what you mean about sharing in open forums as it can be taken wrong. It is very easy to miss the intention of the post and interpret it as "pride" etc. That being said, personally, I am at a point where it doesn't really matter what people think of me, what my motives are, or where my heart is at. I'm doing God's will and that's that! I totally see the "Word of Knowledge" operating in you. God has shown you things about me on more than one occasion.

[Kitty]

I'm thinking to myself "I don't want to cast that thing out! It's fine right where it is"

lol



I too have had the "word of knowledge" thing happen, far more than once (though they don't come out of me like PEZ dispenser)

lol lol

[Crunchyriff]

...I totally see the "Word of Knowledge" operating in you. God has shown you things about me on more than one occasion.

:yikes: :yikes: :yikes:
:help:

[Micter]

...I totally see the "Word of Knowledge" operating in you. God has shown you things about me on more than one occasion.

:yikes: :yikes: :yikes:
:help:

:dunno:

[Crunchyriff]

:D :D :D

I like teasing ya, bro!

[Micter]

:D :D :D

I like teasing ya, bro!

Ya I know

[MrMike]

Crunchy, you're not still hearing my voice on the radio, are ya? :D

[Crunchyriff]

Crunchy, you're not still hearing my voice on the radio, are ya? :D

Well, there was actually you, and a few others I was trying to sort out...

okay I claim guilt for derailing Micters thread. I'll take the brunt of it. Something in my spirit just flipped like a switch just now, and Lord forgive me for the levity for such an important subject.

Micter, I hear your heart in this thread, bruddah & I sense the passion, and a bit of urgency within you about these matters. FWIW, I share in that same passion as do others here, I believe.

I'm gonna step out just a wee bit here. When I came to the cross in Spirit & in truth, I did so aside from my Freewill Baptist upbringing as a kid, whose doctrine promulgated a number of erroneous things taught from that pulpi at the church we attended:

"2 billion Chinese that have never heard the word of God are all going to hell"

"Healing, miracles & spiritual gifts don't happen anymore- that was for the book of Acts" and with the qualifier: "all you need is a Bible, the Word of God"

"Rock music is 'of the Devil', as is Jazz etc.."

"Drums are of the devil"

"piano & organ are the only godly instruments"

" any alcohol consumption is an abomination & will send you to hellfire"

" oh and, don't forget to snuff out your cigarettes in the nice brushed stainless ashtrays right outside the lobby before you come inside..."

:hmm:

This was the warped doctrine & mentality that we got fed every weekend and Wednesday nights.

So, when I came to Christ for keeps, as an adult in 1991, (a re-commital) I had no agenda or polluted doctrinal slant anymore. I emptied myself of that stuff over the years, as it did NOT mesh with the Word of God. I simply took God's Word, from cover to cover, at face value... and I found other folks had beliefs other than what I was taught as a child, that more fell in line with Holy Scripture. I also saw that God was still active in people's lives, even at times in umm, supernatural ways.."God ways".

It was these types of people, along with the stark reality that I had put off serving Jesus far too long ( to serve myself) and was tired of ripping Him off, that led me to the cross forever. I figured it would be dishing out rice in Nigeria or some other third-world country, which I was fine with. I was tired of sitting on the throne of my life, that I had no business sitting in.

So anyway, after Dec 1, 1991, things started happening in my life. I must say, that I have heard God's still, small voice within my heart, since the age of 9. Even when I made my bed in the pit, He never forsook me. EVER. Don't ask me how or WHY this happens or the "mechanics" of how it works. No, I'm not 'special', and I undoubtedly qualify as the least "deserving" among you all to have God use me in Biblical ways that I can't/won't discuss here.

Suffice it to say that, anything that has been manifested by the Spirit of God thru this pathetic past-professional sinner, has been 100% dead-on, all of the time. I must say that, moving in any spiritual gifting is not for the trifler or for the cavalier whatsoever. How dare we? I tell you the truth: it is something that shakes me to the core in a very, VERY sobering way. It is infrequent, out of my control (other than yielding or ignoring); and can come in the most unlikely situations or timings.

I didn't seek out any particular 'gifting' as newbie. I just sought to be used by God, how He desires, and WHEN it so pleases Him.

Once in awhile, He's gracious enough to do just that...and, sometimes he lets me even be aware of it. I'd rather not. It isn't ME anyway.

It continually amazes me, and makes me feel real small.

So I guess, Micter, your passion here is that people get the "whole enchilada" so to speak, to reject a powerless, neutered Gospel that is not of God. Me too. There had been far too many casualties in the Body due to a lack of POWER; and the Church has been highly ineffective and un-influential because of it. Folks have been too guilty of telling God who he is, and who he isn't...making a God in their own image and their own likeness.

We build churches, and then we have the audacity to invite God to the service (if we even dare to...) and then tell Him to go sit in the corner until He sees our cue.

That is NOT the God of the Bible; that is NOT MY GOD.

[Micter]

Crunchy, ya hit the nail on the head.

I had been visiting church after church looking for one that actually had the guts to preach the truth and stand on God's word. One that God was allowed to have his way. To my distain, I found church after church after church that had no spiritual life. Time after time I would see what I call "the Program". You know, everything is 100% planned out and more or less the same service after service. I saw way too many places that weren't preaching God's word but a mix of legalism and humanism. I became very discouraged and came to a point in my spiritual life that I basically didn't want to even go to church anymore. I then just started praying and asking God to put me in a church that lines up with his Word and that he has control of. It might seem strange but I walked in this church and found a man of God that had the same heart as I do. I heard him say that he was tired of "the program" , that he was tired of dead service after dead service and that he wants God to show up and take control. He emplored the church to "WAKE UP" and serve God. I found a home.

Week in and week out we are seeing salvations. Folks, people are getting saved at every service. The gifts of the spirit are in full functionality. We are seeing worship services that aren't planned. I mean we start worship and it last the entire service. God is doing a mighty work, We are having revival! While church after church down the road has no life. I'm not here bragging at how great my church is but how great my God is. His word is 100% true and we need to accept 100% of it and apply 100% of it to our lives. There are far too many ministries around our nation that teach a man made half truth of a gospel. God's heart is to have fellowship with us. As long as we continue to pick and choose what we want to believe because we want to feel comfortable God will not move. He is looking for a people that will rise up and "DO" his word. It's not a formula. It's not a doctrine. It "IS" a codition of the heart.

I got saved in 1985 and found a really small church that I started to attend. It was very militant! We were seeing a move of the spirit that was anything short of miraculous. We had people walking down the street find there way into the church and give their lives to Jesus. My God had control of the services and annointed them like I have never seen. The man of God became prideful as if it was something he had done and the church fell apart. I have not seen anything like that first chuch 'til now.

I'm very much trying to stir the hearts of my bretheren. No offense to anyone here but is God moving in your church? Are you seeing salvations? Are people's lives being changed? or are you seeing service after service of the same old thing? I won't settle for anything less than a church that is doing God's word and that has to include an understanding of God's giftings. We can play church and get to heaven but take a look around you. This generation is in a sad state of affairs. It is dying and going to Hell. What are we doing? Are we sitting at a church week in and week out that has no fire? If what I saw over the last year in my area while looking for a church is indacitive of what is happening in the rest of the nation I say the church as a whole is in a sad state of affairs. We have learned a watered down gospel that takes God and sets him aside while we do our own thing. I'm tired of it! As you all should be. God has so much more for our lives than we can comprehend. We would rather be content and stay in our comfort zone rather than stand on God's word. After all, if we stand on God's word it will cost something. Something that doesn't belong to us anyway. It will cost us our lives.

[MrMike]

I may have used this illustration here before. If I have, please bear with me.

Imagine that I had scrimped and saved for a long time in order to buy my wife a ring that I knew would just bless her socks off. (Don't get too excited, sweetie; it's just an illustration. :embarassed: ) It would be a gift based purely on love, and on a desire to show it to her in a very tangible way.

Now imagine that I had heard a friend of hers compliment her on how beautiful the ring was, only to hear her respond by saying, "Oh, this piece of costume trash? I've seen nicer stuff in a pawnshop!" I'd be crushed. Of course, my wife has FAR more class than that. She'd say something like, "Isn't he just the sweetest thing ever?!" (Of course, she'd be right!! :D ) The point is that acknowledgement of the gift is a reflection of the giver, not the worthiness of the recipient.

Imagine how much more deeply it must grieve our Father's heart when we downplay the value of the gifts he's given us. He chose, as the author of love itself, to give us gifts as a tangible reminder of that love, only to hear us declare them of virtually no value.

If He has blessed us with a special gift or talent, it's for a reason. To acknowledge that gift is in no way a reflection of our worthiness to receive it, unless we arrogantly choose to exalt ourselves in that manner, and Heaven help us if we do. The acknowledgement of the gift should always reflect the generosity and unconditional love of the Giver who gave it to us in spite of our unworthiness to receive it.

[Jaybo]

He is looking for a people that will rise up and "DO" his word.

-What is that though? Is it helping the poor and widows...or is it putting on the "God showed up today" show for church goers?

You see - this is what I don't understand.

People are seeking the experience, and the show - and missing what Christianity truly is.

To me - coming in every week hoping that God shows up (Where was He?) and that you can have the experience show, is playing church.

Hoping that we can get to a 10 on the emotion meter. Thinking that the only way God is "moving" is if somebody "Shumbalawhostolamyhonda's".

What is it? If you sing one song, and take up an offering for missions, tell the people to participate in an AIDS walk - God's not there???

But if you jump over 3 pews, get the mic and say "thus sayeth the Lord" (because speaking in King James English makes it prophecy, or interpretation), and sing 8 songs....then God WAS there????

No way.

Do you think we make God happy by the way we acted today, but that the church whom only talked about how God loves them - "grieved" His heart?

Jesus is taken right out of the equation.

Are you an open conduit only if your service is unscripted?

Sure many services are formulaic, dead and ineffective. Perhaps God would like to take a groups plan for the day, throw it out the window, and have a more experiential day, or a day where He does give them a special word they weren't planning on.

But THAT is not what makes church.

I've seen some guys on here have "words of knowledge" or encouragement that were more authentic than the experience seekers.

I appreciate wanting to seek the Lord, and expecting great things when we're together. But when the "gifts" must be on display - or God wasn't there, is not biblical.

Then THAT becomes formulaic, and manipulative.

And believe me - just becuase a person, or group sees the "giftings" as something different than a Sunday morning display, does not mean they don't know the word, don't know God, or that God is not in control.

[Micter]

Jaybo

I seriously think that you have missed my intentions here 100% from start to finish. I am in no wise saying that we are to go to church for a "feeling" or to see some yahoo speak some phony prophetic utterence. That is not only rude of you to imply but down right ignorent. Calling me an "experience seeker" is anything but correct. You are wrong in your assesment. Worse is calling the gifts of the spirit a Sunday Morning display.

Let me set the record straight. Doing the word of God is applying the Bible to our lives from beginning to end. We are not to pick and choose what we believe. Things like evangelism are spiritual gifts. Seeing people being won to Christ is a move of the spirit that is undenyable. Seeing things such as people being healed of desease, mental illnes, or past hurts are the type of things God wants to do in peoples lives. When the Spirit of God moves you can't deny it. When God is involved in a service there are a couple of things that happen but one of which is people's hearts are changed. I never said that if the gifts must be in display. That implies that we somehow have control of the gifts. We don't! God does!
God wants to be in control of our lives, our church services, our jobs, everything. When we put God in a box take a stance against his will whether it be by ignoring his word or by quenching his spirit because we think we know better it does nothing but shut out God's annointing and makes our Christianity ineffective. My point in this thread was to get people to think about what they are involved in. Is it just another religious social club? or are we equipping the saints to win the world for Christ?

The bottom line your comments have no scriptural backing.

[Micter]

Oh and one more thing. :D

[Crunchyriff]

quote]
-What is that though? Is it helping the poor and widows...or is it putting on the "God showed up today" show for church goers? You see - this is what I don't understand:

People are seeking the experience, and the show - and missing what Christianity truly is.

To me - coming in every week hoping that God shows up (Where was He?) and that you can have the experience show, is playing church.

Hoping that we can get to a 10 on the emotion meter. Thinking that the only way God is "moving" is if somebody "Shumbalawhostolamyhonda's".

What is it? If you sing one song, and take up an offering for missions, tell the people to participate in an AIDS walk - God's not there???

But if you jump over 3 pews, get the mic and say "thus sayeth the Lord" (because speaking in King James English makes it prophecy, or interpretation), and sing 8 songs....then God WAS there?Confused

No way... (edited for space considerations)



Jaybo, ONCE AGAIN you are painting your interpretation with a REAL broad brush. And that incorrectly. You have a very bad habit of doing this.

You project assumptions that you promulgate as our, uhh, "regulations for services" which we have never stated, nor do we believe. What you said is quite warped. The Lord rebuke you.

I've seen plenty of "playing church" where not gifts are manifested, encouraged, or allowed. How do you feel about THAT? The pomp and circumstance of a walk-in, 3 squares, offeratory and a message, the ritual of lighting the candles, etc etc... all scripted down to the nth degree every week, and oh yes, the Christian Country Club- thanks for bringing that up! I've seen many of these types that believe the gifts are DEAD. (don't forget to wear your "Sunday Best", but don't you dare take brother so and so's pew that he claims for his every week...)

You can sum up the whole thing by what Jesus said: " every good tree bears good fruit".

For example, I'm not the least bit impressed if somebody "speaks in tongues"... in fact, I might well suspect where those come from until I see evidence of origin. There are those in the AOG that maintain they want to see and hear you speak in tongues to satisfy them that you are "spirit filled"...this is their qualifier.

I'm sorry but not only I, but the bible says Hogwash. IT is a doctrine of men.

Paul explained what the evidence of the in-filling of the Spirit of God IS: Peace, joy, patience, kindness, meekness, long-suffering, goodness...etc and then he stated, "against these things there are no LAW". Man has confused spiritual gifting with the simple in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit, and some have built a whole doctrine that is in error.

Jaybo, taking offerings for missions IS a God-thing. Speaking and teaching of sound doctrine, God's love, his forgiveness, and his Judgment to come. You know better than that, or you should. C'mon! Then there are those things unexplainable, or unpredictable that might happen in some churches (or even outside their steps) at a moments notice. The truth is, in God's WORLD, you can't have one without the other. Not if God is TRULY in charge. And you might not get any 'manifestations' at every service. SO what?

What you are doing here is putting words in mine and Micter's mouths that we never uttered, to justify your aversion to anything out of the natural or out of your comfort zone.. Stop it. Please.

See, this is where the straight and narrow takes a hard swing with man, one way or the other. And it is MAN doing it, not God.

Part of the problem is that we have groups that either (A) shun the uncontrollable and unknown or (B) want to play in the candy store all day long. The bottom line is, God is in charge of it all. And HE balances it as it pleases Him.

I can't manufacture emotion (or an "experience) for something that isn't there. I won't. And God can "show up" in a variety of ways that are all equally important.

Ever been sitting in a pew where the message preached was like the pastor had been "reading your mail"? God was there.

Ever get a phone-call from out of the blue that ministers to you at a time where you needed it most? God was there.

Ever have a vehicle breakdown, and somebody just pops up and helps you, an then takes off without any fanfare or waiting for a "thank you"? God was there.

Ever been moved to give somebody a few bucks, outside a service? God was there, and He used YOU.

Ever "lead" somebody to Christ? God was there, and HE did it. He just used you as the conduit.

Let me last say something about the "experience seekers" crack.

I seek something, no far better- SOMEONE that someday we will have & behold forever.. if you have problems with that I'd seriously question your spiritual destiny. That is the bottom line. The Apostle Paul, before his conversion, had all his doctrine correct from a "textual" perspective all his ducks were in a row. HE was, as he put it "a Pharisee of a Pharisee". He knew scripture backwards, forwards and inside out. But he HAD NO EXPERIENCE with Jesus. He thought he knew WHO he was looking for, but was fatally incorrect.

Then he MET Jesus. And from that day forward, his prior head knowledge was NOT enough, no, he wrote "I want to KNOW Him and share in his sufferings..." It was daily interaction, communion; and experiences as God saw fit to manifest them. HE was not a member or a social fan-club, HE KNEW JESUS PERSONALLY. HE HAD, and sought "the experience". Those other things come as a by-product of KNOWING HIM, experiencing HIM...and they only truly come as HE sees fit.

Bottom line in it all:

Either God is in charge of your life, and your church... or he isn't. That doesn't require tongue talking 24/7 or miracles hanging from display cases; but conversely, it doesn't ignore, demean, forbid or repudiate these things either. Once that happens, MEN are now in control, not God.

There is only one enemy of the Spiritual Gifts of God, and that is Satan. The last thing he wants to see is every believer to be open, available, and believing in the reality of Spiriitual gifting a through God's Holy Spirit & His power manifested.

It is like natural warfare. One of the best tools is to target the enemy's morale, erode it, and give them false information. If you can convince them they are losing the war.... they will.

If you can convince them it is a lost cause, they will pack up and go home.

And if you can make them believe the ammunition for their weapons is old, inert, and outdated- far outclassed by YOURS, you've got them.

Well our weapons are not carnal, but they are REAL, and full of POWER.

The devil doesn't want you or me to believe it. And so, we have this divide, this demonic doctrine that mocks Spiritual Gifts and those that believe in them. That is from the pit of HELL.

Just as legalism is in churches that don't (as well as those that do) recognize the gifts. It is demonic.

[Kitty]

Ya know... just for my two cents worth here, I think perhaps this conversation has hit a few sore spots, that's all.

I firmly believe all you brothers regard one another with absolute respect and love. But things seem to be (from my point of view) siding up on two sides of a fence that isn't really there. In other words, it looks as if there is a feeling of disagreement, but there really IS NO disagreement.

However, there ARE different passions, different personalities, and different perspectives... and they are all created by and surrendered to Christ. May I humbly suggest that if any one of you thinks you're seeing a true disagreement, that you look again, or better yet, ask the Lord what He wants you to see here. I think you guys are more on the same page than not.

But as I said, stuff like this does, unfortunately, hit some sore spots in people who have been kicked by others in past situations. I tell you, I used to resent it very much when people told me I wasn't filled with the Spirit because I didn't [fill-in-the-blank-here], and now I resent just as much when they tell I AM filled with the Spirit because I DO! How dare they make that call!

It's not about doing and it's not about NOT doing. It's about being surrendered and submitted to the Lord in whatever way He created you to be surrendered and submitted to Him. And neither I nor anyone else can tell you exactly how that's supposed to "look" in your life or in your church. That's His Majesty's place, and I know you all feel the same. Just thought this was a good time to point it out. :D

Kitty

[Jaybo]

Micter, Crunchy - I was in no way trying to be rude, and I'm sorry if I offended you.

You fellows said you thought Christianity looked one way - and I attempted to say that I thought it looked another way. If it came out judgemental, or gruff - that was not right.

I did not mean to imply that anybody on here was an "experience seeker". I have seen people that could be described as such, and it is important to not be, but it is not a label I hope that could rightly apply to a poster.

My comments have scriptural backing from start to finish. I accept that you interpret the bible in a different light. It's okay that you do! If you'd like, I could do an exegesis.

Okay, it wouldn't be that fancy.

I do not "pick and choose". I believe firmly that I am following Christ in every manner His word, and His direction guides.

I'm firmly convinced that I don't have it perfect all the time. :joker:

It's like the comic I saw. "It doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't matter what I think - it only matters what God thinks.....Now I'm going to tell you what God thinks."

We can't be like that!

I feel that maybe, some of what I said got glossed over what - and was taken personally, again - not my intention to offend.

Crunchy - I don't really think there was any place to be rebuking.

Other than that - 90% of what you said, agreed with what I was saying.

Again - I don't disagree that God can move, or that there are "gifts". I do not "try to quench", I do not have an "aversion, or a comfort zone".

You know what - maybe I do have an aversion. (If I was honest) I've seen so much crap, and manufactured (barking anyone???) and non churched people turned off - that I'm like "NO - being a christian, and evidence of Christ IS NOT about that stuff"!!

And I do tend to go TOO hard in that direction.

I hope we can all get along - not just as an evangelical/pentecostal board.

But as Christians of sometimes radically differing beliefs, who are still in the end, one big fam.

(group hug) lol

[Micter]

Jaybo

I have to admit your previous post has a very harsh flavor to it. It seems to have twisted things quite a bit and I took it personal. Still do to be honest but I am big enough to let you be wrong if you so choose! :cool: ;)
My point, as I have maintained in this entire thread has been to get us all to think about the people dying around us and heading for etenity without Christ. As well as to point out that the God we love and serve is able to "gift" us with what we need to win the world for Christ. I see all too many people playing church and it ought not be so.

Personally I HATE religion. That includes sects of Christianity that teach contrary to scripture, allow sin, and overlook the things that Christ taught us. Jesus said (paraphrased) "These signs shall follow those that believe, they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues, they shall take up serpents, if they drink anything deadly it shall not harm them, and they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. Mark 16 IIRC. My point is this: Jesus said it! I believe it! That settles it! as far as I'm concerned.

Kitty

The evidence of A Christian is a change life more than anything. In that change we are called to be doers of the word. "Be ye DOERS of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves". If we are hearers only then we are like the Pharasees. "Faith without works is dead". :(

[Crunchyriff]

Jaybo- bro yes your posts of seeming aversion were quite on the "mocking" edge as it read, but again, I understand the nature of your chagrin with some of the "charismatic" movement's misrepresentation & doctrine that is errant. I too, share that same chagrin if you can believe that- I do, trust me on this.

I also feel the same way about those churches that have a form of Godliness, but deny the power thereof (either partially or entirely) ... those on the other side of the fence that have been just as much in grave error.

I'm not taking the things you wrote as "personal" whatsoever at face value- I'd have to be God Himself to do that. I am taking issue in regards to the measuring rod of Holy Scripture... and the truth of that that I have personally witnessed.

I too, have witnessed errant (and artificial) things in these matters, but I have also witnessed the real deal more than a few times over the last two decades alone; and I would take care if I was you to make light of, or blow them off- so as not to either grieve, or Blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Because doctrines of men, abuses and plain ignorance muck up the wonderful simplicity (and awesome power) of the Gospel, does not change the reality that Christ afforded us, and the purity and power of the Gospel message; nor render moot the Comforter, who will lead us into all truth if we would just allow Him to do so (and manifest that which whatever God sees fit) ... instead of men promulgating false doctrines.

As far as a rebuke- in light of you basically presuming all who believe in a certain way are simply "Missing Christianity", "looking for an experience show", "hoping that we can get a '10' on the emotion meter"; and "thinking that the only way God is moving is if somebody (speaks in tongues)" ; well aside from my paraphrase in parenthesis, these are all direct quotes of what you wrote, Jaybo, with no embellishment or "editorializing" of me whatsoever; which presumes you know what is going on in the hearts and minds of believers, not to mention making light of the manifest power of God- so YES, It did deserve a rebuke, IMHO.

Yes, we can all hug and be a happy body, but there are some things I will not mince words about, gloss over or ignore. And those things are what deviates from the truth, simplicity, grace and power of the Gospel.

[Kitty]

Kitty

The evidence of A Christian is a change life more than anything. In that change we are called to be doers of the word. "Be ye DOERS of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves". If we are hearers only then we are like the Pharasees. "Faith without works is dead". :(

Micter,

Hmm, it appears that you think I was saying "be a hearer only." I was saying surrender and submit every aspect of your entire life to Jesus Christ.

I don't have a problem with "doers." I'm a doer myself. :) The only problem I have is with people who "do" things without constantly seeking wisdom from Christ. Just because He had us do something in a particular way for one situation doesn't automatically mean that's what He intends for the next situation.

Kitty

[Jaybo]

You know - that was a really disappointing display by both of you.

Do you not think I could have ripped your posts apart?

Personal attacks, putting words in my mouth, ad hominem discreditation, baseless assumptions.

But still, after I try to make peace - you come on and attack me more?

I am not allowed to make a commentary on things I witnessed - but you know what's going on in my heart? Yeah, good one.

I have constantly edited myself, and been careful around you guys. I have let attacks go - and strived for peace.

You are allowed to post without "mincing words" - but I have to post things that line up with your belief paradigm, or I'm the bad guy, eh?

You both need to take a long, hard, honest look at the way you have acted. It has really bothered me.

I attempted to say that I was sorry that you took a post I made about things I witnessed, and applied it to yourselves.

It was never meant that way.

I stand by all the things I said, and feel they are absolute truth. I do not care how you put words in quotes, or think you can rebuke me -

I am following the Lord the best I know how, and was attempting to share the truth as I have come to know it. If you do not like others having a truth that is different than yours - there is a proper way to discuss this.

It was never meant for anger, self righteousness, or offense.

I don't care if Stephen takes your side again.

Ban me, try to run me off again, tell me you'll ignore me again.

But those things are not right either.

Better yet - I'll just go. Every time I attempt to share anything from my belief you guys attack me anyways.

If I post anything else, in other forums, nobody responds. So, I can see the writing on the wall gents.

Take care.

[Brian]

...Better yet - I'll just go...

I am personally the lesser for it :(

[MrMike]

Me too. Churches split over discussions like this. (Actually, some churches have split over some comparatively trivial matters, but that's another discussion entirely.) It is my prayer that we can all remember that it's what we share, our love of Jesus and His precious blood that unites us all as children of the Most High, and set aside some of the non-salvation-dependent issues that we may differ on. :cry:

[Crunchyriff]

I can attest that I never put any words in anybody's mouth, or invented any whatsoever. My quotes were direct quotes from your post Jaybo, that I guess I had the unmitigated gall to take at face value as they were posted... and yet you deny them.

You started the attacks, I simply called you to the carpet on them. You also attack, twist what others say, and then play victim. Nice.

If you can't handle/admit/see that, I'm done here, bro.

I might as well talk to a wall.

[Micter]

Kitty

The evidence of A Christian is a change life more than anything. In that change we are called to be doers of the word. "Be ye DOERS of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves". If we are hearers only then we are like the Pharasees. "Faith without works is dead". :(

Micter,

Hmm, it appears that you think I was saying "be a hearer only." I was saying surrender and submit every aspect of your entire life to Jesus Christ.

I don't have a problem with "doers." I'm a doer myself. :) The only problem I have is with people who "do" things without constantly seeking wisdom from Christ. Just because He had us do something in a particular way for one situation doesn't automatically mean that's what He intends for the next situation.

Kitty

So I misunderstood? Oopsy! Sorry, I really took that the wrong way.

[Micter]

Jaybo, you are totally mistaken. The attitude that shows from your posts have been very bitter. I'm not sure where your heart is but the tone seems to be pretty harsh. We are all here to discuss issues and to be honest I appreciate a heated debate. I'm of the opinion that we disagree about a lot of issues but in that we can still discuss and not argue. I did take some things personal (admittedly BTW) but I'm a big boy and can get past it. Some of my best friends hold views very simular to yours and I get into discussions about the differences in our beliefs and agree to disagree. No big deal.

As far as the two of us taking a hard look at the way we acted, I invite you ever so cordially to do the same.

I just want to say that in one of my posts above I tried to make light of the fact that we disagree as a manner of respect to your beliefs. You know, the one where I said you can be wrong if you wish. followed by a couple of smilies. It was meant in fun and was my way of accepting and honoring your apology.

I really don't think you have to leave over it but if you feel you must I wish you the best in everything you do.

I have said it before and I'll say it again! I started this thread to get the point across that God will gift his people for the purpose of winning the lost and for the edification of the church. Everything I have said has been backed by scripture and is not anything I came up with out of my own pride.

[Jaybo]

I know there is not niceness in those posts.

I am trying incredibly hard to not snap.

Please be understanding, that I am trying to get things resolved - and not just be defensive, or attacking.

Though I am incredibly offended and hurt - I am trying. That is all that I can say.

[Kitty]

...Better yet - I'll just go...

I am personally the lesser for it :(

Me too!

[reverbbb]

If I see one more "But YOU . . . " post here, I am going to lock or remove it.

Everyone needs to suspend the 'lack of respect' topic at this moment.

I will keep it open if you guys will get back onto the topic of how YOU 'feel/interpret' Spiritual gifts. These discussions are EXTREMELY important for understanding multiple sides and view points. You are not asked to believe these perspectives - Understanding someone else's perspective may either a) clarify something for you, or b) strengthen what you believe. So please refrain from persuading unless someone asks specifically for clarification (meaning, word you statements as your perspective, not a 'command from the Bible').

I don't want to see this topic get locked.

And Jaybo, DON'T YOU DARE LEAVE!!!!

[stephen]

And Jaybo, DON'T YOU DARE LEAVE!!!!

Thats an order!

[Micter]

The few of you that made comments about being "the lesser" for it have totally overlooked the fact that there has been a lot of really great dialog in this thread. If you are really the lesser for it I would suggest you go back and read the thread to the point that it got derailed. There was a lot of edification and to discuss what spiritual giftings are active in our lives is a good thing. Dismissing this thread is not.

[Wally]

Here is what I believe....

- Our God is absolutely, 100% sovereign....

- I am only aware of one way that He has provided for our salvation...through faith in Christ (accepting Him as our Lord and Savior)

- that faith itself, because of God's absolute sovereignty, is a gift through His Grace

- I believe that believers are indwelled by the Holy Spirit at the time of belief

- I believe that there are spiritual gifts provided to believers by the Lord - some are supernatural and some are natural talents enhanced and used for the Lord's work

- I believe it is in error to deny the possibility of supernatural gifts...

- just as I believe it is in error to deny that natural talents are a gift from the Lord, and in error to make too much of a distinction between the two

- I believe that anything that is required by a church to "prove" salvation - whether displaying gifts or works of some sort - is wrong

- I believe that the universal "catholic" church is made up of true believers from a variety of churches

- I believe that worship is a time for believers to gather together for confession of sins, prayer, communion, singing of hymns and psalms in praise, reading and hearing of the scriptures, and hearing the word preached - all to the glory of the Lord and for the building up of the body. I also believe that we are "called to action" as well - to spread the Gospel, care for the poor and ill, etc.

- I believe that true biblical worship can be accomplished through an orderly "high church" liturgical worship service, through simple "casual" services, or through charismatic style services (conducted in a biblical manner). I believe the fact that a service seems "scripted" or "boring" to one does not mean that the Lord is not present or working in that congregation.

- I believe there is much that is non biblical occurring in many non- charismatic churches - and much that is non-biblical occurring in many charismatic churches

- I believe that most churches strive to be "100% biblical" but still invariably stress one thing over another - and invariably "ignore" other things. For example, there are actually churches here in the south who handle snakes and drink poison during their worship (it is illegal everywhere except West Virginia, btw). All the rest of us - charismatic or not - can be accused of ignoring that particular part of scripture.

- I believe that we are to "test the spirits", and that every supernatural manifestation should not be given wholesale acceptance as being of the Lord. I am thinking in particular of the "Brownsville revival/laughing/ barking type stuff....

- I believe that the Lord can work through us however He chooses. I believe that the Apostles spoke in tongues to a multi-national crowd (to spread the Gospel) and that all in the crowd heard in their own language. I believe they and others also spoke in "supernatural" tongues at other times as well as performing other supernatural signs and wonders. I am not ready to join some of my fellow conservative evangelicals in proclaiming that age of signs to be over, but I do believe that evangelism is being accomplished primarily through less supernatural means - preaching and teaching - at this time.


Long winded but trying to give an overview of my beliefs in hopes of not being misunderstood. I believe my spiritual gifts are primarily in the areas of teaching, leadership, discernment and whatever category music falls under. I have never spoken in tongues. I believe the Lord gives me knowledge and guides me through the Holy Spirit. I am, and probably always will be, a member of a reformed, conservative, evangelical presbyterian congregation that emphasizes solid biblical teaching and preaching. I believe the Lord is present and active in our congregation. I do not expect supernatural signs gift to manifest themselves in our congregation, but the Lord will certainly make His presence known in that way if He so chooses, but we will feel His presence and worship in spirit and truth regardless.

I have witnessed supernatural gifts (tongues) once in a "oneness" pentecostal church that my friend attended. It was not conducted in a biblical manner as there was no interpretation.


These internet forum discussions are difficult in that it is exceedingly difficult to convey our thoughts accurately, and so easy to assume that what someone says is directed specifically toward us and not spoken in general terms. Maybe Jaybo and I are the only two here who don't worship in Pentecostal/Charismatic congregations.... I am not defending or condemning anyones posts.... but I can understand where he was coming from as it would be easy for me to take some of the posts in this thread as saying that my non-charismatic worship is invalid. I am not convinced that was the intent, just saying I can see how someone might read them that way - just as someone may read this post as being anti-charismatic, and that is not my intent.

[Wally]

Crunchy -

I would like to hear more of your views on something in one of your posts - you listed several "errors" in the teachings of the churches you attended - one of of those errors you listed was:

"2 billion Chinese that have never heard the word of God are all going to hell"

What is your view on what will happen to them?

[stephen]

These internet forum discussions are difficult in that it is exceedingly difficult to convey our thoughts accurately, and so easy to assume that what someone says is directed specifically toward us and not spoken in general terms. Maybe Jaybo and I are the only two here who don't worship in Pentecostal/Charismatic congregations.... I am not defending or condemning anyones posts.... but I can understand where he was coming from as it would be easy for me to take some of the posts in this thread as saying that my non-charismatic worship is invalid. I am not convinced that was the intent, just saying I can see how someone might read them that way - just as someone may read this post as being anti-charismatic, and that is not my intent.

There were a lot of excellent things Wally said in this post, but I wanted to hi-light this, especially the first sentence.

Excellent conveyance of thought Wally!

[Micter]

Wally

Great post! I appreciate most of what you had to say. There are a few areas that I would agree to disagree on but that is my deal. That being the "catholic" comment. But again that's just something I'm not dwelling on.

There doesn't seem to be much room in the perticular denomination you attend for certain spiritual gifts. Is that because of a certain teaching or would you say that is basically because of the conservative nature of the people that attend?
Help me out. Will ya?

[Kitty]

The few of you that made comments about being "the lesser" for it have totally overlooked the fact that there has been a lot of really great dialog in this thread. If you are really the lesser for it I would suggest you go back and read the thread to the point that it got derailed. There was a lot of edification and to discuss what spiritual giftings are active in our lives is a good thing. Dismissing this thread is not.

Micter-dude, you really need to slow down when you're reading posts.

We were saying we would be the lesser for it if Jaybo decides to leave, not because of anything in this post.

I feel the same about you, by the way.

Kitty

[Kitty]

- I believe that the universal "catholic" church is made up of true believers from a variety of churches

Something I myself did not know until a few years ago is that the word catholic (with a small "c") means something TOTALLY different than the Roman Catholic Church.

Just to clear up any possible confusion, "catholic" simply refers to the universal, worldwide church founded by Jesus Christ... NOT the Roman Catholic religion.

As Wally said, we are all members of the catholic (small "c") church, true believers from a wide variety of churches.

Kitty

[Wally]

Kitty - thanks for explaining that - I was just getting ready to post and you beat me to it. I like to use the term in part because so many folks have not heard it used except in relation to the Roman Catholic church. I would say it is generally only heard these days (in the context of it meaning universal) in churches that recite the Apostle's Creed.

[Barry]

...Though I am incredibly offended and hurt - I am trying. That is all that I can say.

Jaybo, I sense a need to share some experiences with you, in the Love of Christ, that may help you. If I'm way off base, please let me know.

First, let me reflect what others have stated... That it can be VERY difficult to convey intent and meaning in this type of venue. I know this all too well from experience over the last 20 or so years as sysop of dos-based BBSs with message echoes (long before internet forums), but more recently in private email exchanges with my own blood brother.

In my brother's case, I simply got carried away with perceptions of what I THOUGHT I was reading, which couldn't have been further from the truth. In reality, the last person in the world who would want to hurt me is my own blood brother. (He and I are fine now, Praise God)

In a broader sense with BBSs over the years, I've seen some major disagreements in my time. Most have been resolved with the rules of the world, and usually ended up with people being banned from message echoes, and sometimes entire BBSs. Flame wars. Insults flying. Very bad scenes. I have to tell you, until running across this forum, I had not seen very many instances at all where the Holy Spirit and the Love of Christ truly dictated the rules of conduct. It does here, and I know Stephen would not keep the site running if that were not the case.

As Kitty observed further back in the thread, there are no sides to take. All I'm saying, as someone who is simply reading this thread, is that I see nobody trying to say hurtful things to you, or to anyone else.

We're all brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of differing views. I'm praying for you, brother.

[Jaybo]

[/quote]is that I see nobody trying to say hurtful things to you, or to anyone else.[quote]

Scrap it.

Everything in me wants to point out faults, and justify, or fix.

Not what God wants for community or peace.

I honestly did not mean for my post to be directed at any one person, or specific group. Please do not take offense in the words.


I appreciate those who offered the very needed words of encouragement.

[Wally]

Wally

Great post! I appreciate most of what you had to say. There are a few areas that I would agree to disagree on but that is my deal. That being the "catholic" comment. But again that's just something I'm not dwelling on.

There doesn't seem to be much room in the perticular denomination you attend for certain spiritual gifts. Is that because of a certain teaching or would you say that is basically because of the conservative nature of the people that attend?
Help me out. Will ya?

If I had to give a short answer, I guess it would have to be simply that the Lord chooses not to manifest himself in that way in our congregations - since He is sovereign and we ask Him regularly to speak through us, work through us, be present with us, etc. Not trying to be smug - I believe that is the ultimate reason. And I think that you would be correct in assuming that certain teachings (see below) as well as the general conservative nature of the people plays a part.

Now I will attempt a longer answer - with a couple of prefaces:

- I am not a reformed theologian, I just play one on the internet ;)

- My study of the Bible has led me to embrace reformed theology as the best of the competing theologies, because it's basic tenets are centered on the sovereignty of God and the sufficiency of scripture. I don't believe it is perfect. The following should be viewed as my attempt to explain your question, not a defense of anything.

I think there are several things which will help answer your question.

- I am most likely in the minority in my views on supernatural spiritual gifts (among reformed folks). I know that there are at least a few modern reformed theologians and pastors who take the position that I do (John Piper and Wayne Grudem for example), but I suspect that most are cessationists. Many of the originators of reformed theology - Calvin for example - had a cessationist view on spiritual gifts (that they ceased with the close of the apostolic age). I suspect their views were based on several things - not seeing supernatural gifts in practice, the absence of their mention in the writings of the church fathers, and in backlash to the Roman Catholic practice of attributing miracles to relics, statues, patron saints, etc. The reformed and puritan view of worship put a strong emphasis on reverence and order in worship - I suspect this contributes as well. I also think that much of the charismatic movement, from the "great awakening" through the present time, holds views in other areas of theological thought that has caused the reformed camp to keep it's distance. I am thinking in particular of the Armininan theological views on God and salvation (as opposed to calvinism).

For the record, I believe that a cessationist view of supernatural gifts is inconsistent with reformed theology, and again, the above is an attempt to explain why I believe many in my corner of the theological universe believe as they do - not a justification. I believe they are most likely in error on this particular subject. I also hold a minority view of end times events, but despite these two differences I still feel that reformed theology and my particular denomination are the best place for me. The thing that has kept me at a distance from pentecostal/charismatic churches is not supernatural spiritual gifts but what I believe to be errors in other areas of doctrine.

If you made it to the end.... I hope I made sense lol

[Micter]

Wally, yes I made it to the end. I have to say that i appreciate the tone and the spirit in which you answered my question. I know it is a touchy subject. (reverbbb edit - Removed the non-value added portion).

I seem to get the feeling that some of the wackos on the far opposite from your beliefs might have had something to do with why you believe what you do. In all honesty that is probably a valid point but ought not be. I really see a problem with both extremes. If I was in a church that had people swinging from the chandeleers and laughing in the spirit I would bolt so fast it would make your head spin. The same goes for a totally reserved church that has no life (meaning no salvations no growth). Both extremes are wrong by my understanding of the scriptures. Everything must be decently and in order, Right?

Just some food for thought. Is it God choosing not to manifest in the gifts or is it the congregation not allowing God to manifest himself in the gifts?
I would suspect maybe a bit of both but that's just my opinion.

[Wally]

Just some food for thought. Is it God choosing not to manifest in the gifts or is it the congregation not allowing God to manifest himself in the gifts?
I would suspect maybe a bit of both but that's just my opinion.

The reformed viewpoint would not see the second option as a possibility - if God is completely sovereign, then we do not have the capacity to "not allow" Him to do anything.

On a related note - the older I get, the more clear some things are to me... however, other things become harder to understand and/or explain. One that perplexes me at this time is this - I believe that we (believers) are one in, and led by, the same spirit (Holy Spirit). However, it is obvious that we are not all lead in the same direction. I do not have an answer as to why, except that He leads us in accordance with His will.

[Micter]

Well, I really can't go along with that rational at all. I'll tell you why. If God gives us a word of knowledge the gift is there. It is up to us to either use it a la speak it out loud to the person it is intended or hold it in. We do have something to do with it. If God has gifted me with healing but I don't lay hands and pray for anyone sick who is stopping what? We have a choice just like salvation. We can choose to not accept Christ it is our free will.

Again this is just to think about things from another perspective.

As far as why people believe so differently, I can't help but think it's spiritual. The devil knows God's word and tried to twist it to temp Christ. We sure aren't more knowledgable in scripture as the one who wrote it. Satan will definately twist God's word, try to add to it and take things away in order to weaken the church.

[Crunchyriff]

Crunchy -

I would like to hear more of your views on something in one of your posts - you listed several "errors" in the teachings of the churches you attended - one of of those errors you listed was:

"2 billion Chinese that have never heard the word of God are all going to hell"

What is your view on what will happen to them?

This is only my view of a "possibility", but not something I know to be fact:

Wally, first and foremost, I'm no Bible Scholar...far from it. All of these "errors" that I listed on that particular post came from the same denomination and the same exact church & pastor. (not multiple places) Though I did in fact answer an altar call at the age of 9 at that church ( and yup, it was God calling me, allright- this was not artificial prodding by my folks...they were quite stunned when I got out of the pew and went to the front ) we actually ceased going to that church, and sadly, church entirely for a number of years; due to many things being taught from the pulpit that were in direct contradiction to what were were reading in the King James version of the Bible.

I believe that the love, and forgiveness of God (as well as His justice & mercy) surpasses that of man's. What WE humans possess, at best, is a paltry sliver of it.

We also know that, according to the Bible when the Gospel has been preached to the whole world, then the end will come....

"WHOLE WORLD": now does that mean just geographically, or population-wise?

Now, remember when Christ gave up His Spirit on the cross? According to the Word, He then descended to hell, preached the gospel, and set captives free there. My question is this- since this indeed happened, and Christ's spirit left the world as we know it ( of fixed time and space), just when did this preaching take place... outside of our timeline or within it? Was it as we assume it, roughly 33 AD in hell on the devils atomic clock & calendar? Or, was it technically, at the end of time?

Moses and Elijah met Jesus at the mount of Transfiguration many many more years after their deaths, so why couldn't Jesus pillage hell at the end?

Now, the word of God states, "it's once for man to die, and then the Judgment"; but then why did Jesus go to hell to preach his message and set captives there free? Who were those people? Where and WHEN did they come from? Was it strictly from Adam to the cross, or was it "in total" at the end of time? Jews only? HOW DO we know?

We can only guess. Now, stick with me as this seems a bit abstract; but if God shows no partiality, then why do just SOME get to HEAR the message? I'm not sure God is that way as we might think. So, what about those who never heard the message? God indeed knows who each and every one of those souls are. He knows who have had a chance to hear the gospel message on earth, and who hasn't. I take exception to something a preacher I respect, who recently said: "every person who has seen the awesome works of God in nature, already have had a chance to accept or reject his Son." (paraphrased) while using this verse as the qualifier: "because the Bible says the whole earth is full of His glory"

... well, I'm sorry but I saw birds and trees and other wonderful things... and I still had to be TOLD about God- who He really IS, and His Son. My soul MAY have intrinsically known or suspected someone MADE THIS UNIVERSE, but I didn't have a clue WHO it was, until I was told. If that pastor's premise were accurate, no preaching might be necessary, no OT temple, no scrolls, no prophets, etc. Basically it would be a "instinctive" thing. A Gospel and Divine identity obtained by sheer instinct. But that is not what we have, nor how it is delivered. So that forces the question:

If people need to be told the Gospel message ( and they DO), and be given a chance to either accept or reject Christ, WHAT ABOUT THOSE THAT NEVER HAD THAT OPPORTUNITY? Those in the past, of current time, and perhaps whomever in the future before the end?

Are these just walking mortal organic tissue, just "beta models", or "whoops, I guess you just don't get to go" unfortunate folks culled from the ranks?

Does God give them all the chance in a lump-sum mtg in hell having already had His own Son give the invitation? Was that message preached between the crucifixion & rising victorious on the third day?

Or, is it at that last microsecond when the spirit is just shy of leaving the body, on an individual basis?

I don't honestly know. Nobody does.

But this I DO know:

We do not serve a fickle, capricious, hard-hearted God.

God is consistent, & unchanging.

Our God's Son said, "don't worry, you are worth more than a few sparrows"

God is interested in redeeming the souls of mankind. And Jesus said, "whosoever will"... it is an inclusive, that underscored the fact that one must knowingly accept or reject God's Son...but how CAN you, when you never ever heard of Him? What about the Assyrians? And every other OT race that never heard of the name of Jesus? Remember, the Gospel is not only for the Jew, but for the Gentile as well.

If we protect human life because it is sacred- it's a baby with a living soul; why would a soul be written off that honestly never heard the Gospel?

If God is willing to perish the body to preserve the soul from eternal damnation, why would these relegated to nothing more than lumps of human flesh be glibly written-off?

IMHO, God will make sure those 2 billion Chinese get a shot... somehow. The whole world will get a chance to hear the Message. It is written.

Though I believe that because of God's Sovereignty, He could just 'write off' those gravely unfortunate folks if He so chose; from what we are taught of His nature, His heart & His unsurpassed love in Holy Scripture, this would not be consistent with those attributes.

Can we think that the good shepherd wouldn't bother with going after the missing ONE, and just be pleased with the other 99 sheep that were in the pen. If God sought that which was lost, what about the one?

Therefore, my views are that God has an answer for this situation with these specific people who have never heard the message (Chinese or otherwise), that He has withheld from us at His discretion... whatever answer that may be; while some of us have already forecast nothing but utter doom for them.

At face value: the scripture that tells us the gospel will be preached to the whole world, challenges that mindset I was taught at a young age.

Hope that explains it, bro.

[Micter]

Crunchy, I think the one thing that you aren't taking into consideration is that the OT Saints were held in a compartment in Hades until the resurection. They weren't in "HELL" but in a separate compartment that was free from torment and in the presence of the Lord. Now, from my understanding so it's possible I'm mistaken, when Jesus went to "Hades" he was there to pick up the Saints and take them to heaven. Think about Lazarous and the rich man. They were able to see each other etc.

I don't see a "second chance" mentioned in scripture. I see it is appointed every man once to die then the judgement. If that were the case none of us would serve God. We would just do our 10 or 100 years in hell and accept Christ to get out. I just can't see God allowing uncovered sin in his kingdom.

At this point I would say that as many Churches (whether State churches or Underground) and missionaries etc. that have been/are in China that there are many that haven't heard the Gospel in this generation. Past generations? very much so.

I agree that God is soveriegn and he "could" take the children of Satan and allow them one last chance so to speak. That would in my estimation negate scriptures like Matthew 7:13-14

13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Again, I don't know if my assessment on the subject is in fact correct but one day we'll find out. I'm all too thankful that this subject doesn't apply to me. God's mercy is incredible! I'm thankful of my salvation to say the least. On the other hand my heart cries out for those who know not our loving Savior.

[Crunchyriff]

I'm not seeing this as a "second chance theology" whatsoever.

What I stated was nothing but my own personal thought process of how God COULD possibly deal with this scenario- the mechanics of it, if you will.

Again, this "theory" (and that is ALL that it is) is for those who never, EVER heard the gospel. Period. I thought I made that very clear. It's simply a thought I have been chewing on for years. And the hell I was referring to that Christ descended to is Sheol, IIRC, not Gehenna.

Nobody has been cast into the lake of fire....YET. But that time will come.

To me, that very statement our (then) pastor made is highly contradictory. God's Word says the whole world will hear the gospel.

Our pastor said that 2 billion Chinese who never heard the word of God will go to hell. (Meaning the lake of fire)

Okay: so who should I believe? I tend to believe God's Word.

Then we have the issue in the back of my mind, well, what about those that have never heard? How does God deal with that? If everybody ultimately gets the chance to accept or reject, then how does that work in these cases? When does that happen? I mean, we've got many pastors who maintain there will be people, never hearing the Gospel, who will eternally perish.

See, if our God is no respecter of persons, that means he loves us all equally. SO does one get the opportunity and another not get it?

I understand what you are saying about the countless missions to China, yet it does not by any means guarantee 100% saturation, maybe not even 50% at best. FWIW, I have run into people here in the USA who have never, EVER heard the word of God and the Gospel before in their lives- how much more so in, say, China?

I totally agree it is once appointed to die, then the judgment. It is so written, & totally blows the reincarnation theory out of the water- but it doesn't intrinsically deal with those supposed second class humans who never get a chance to HEAR ( accept or reject) the Message.. I don't refute that scripture; nor do I believe that by and large, we all get one last (perhaps second or third) crack at it before the lights go out. And I agree with that premise you stated.

I guess is what I'm trying to communicate here in all of this is- God loves humanity enough to find a way to give everyone the opportunity to accept or reject his Son. He has stated it over and over in His Word.

SO though I agree that in His Sovereignty, God could just blow off those "unfortunate souls" and say, "oh well, to the shredder you go, ho-hum... it's only 2 billion... yawn..."

this is not the heart of My God who revealed Himself through His Son.

This is not to say I believe in a universalism theology- far from it. Those who think they can "accept Christ" but still continue knowingly in their sins, will die, eternally. Period. They WILL inherit the lake of fire with Satan and his angels. So will those who knowingly refuse to accept Jesus while on this earth, but when faced with the welcome mat of eternal damnation, might suddenly have other ideas.. TOO LATE!

I believe God has a way to reach each and every person He ever created and give each of them a chance to accept or reject His Son.

How that "works" is far FAR beyond me. All I did is present was, what I clearly stated was an abstract picture, an impression of how that MIGHT occur, in a scenario of somebody who never ever truly heard the gospel message while living on this earth before passing- (as supposed by some pastors that these folks exist); and that is all.

hope that clarifies.

[Micter]

By second chance I meant after death knowing or not knowing the gospel. I'll just say that God is totally capable of doing whatever he sees fit. If that is making a way for those that haven't heard the gospel or if it is allowing a generational curse to separate God from sinners he is justified.

I have no idea how he plans on dealing with those that haven't heard about and had no opportunity to accept or reject Christ. Again I'm thankful to have had the opportunity to repent. The reckless disregard for life that was evedent in the way I onced lived should have resulted in my being forever separated from the love of God. His mercy just blows my mind. We've talked about my past and what a knucklehead I was. :roll:

[Crunchyriff]

I was quite deplorable myself..still am, without the blood of Jesus and His Holy Spirit within me.

[Micter]

Deplorable? :cry:

[Crunchyriff]

Not that YOU were...(!!) :D

[Micter]

Not that YOU were...(!!) :D

:dunno:

[davesg]

I haven't had a chance to keep up on this whole series of thoughts due to some family problems, but just reading this last page brought this scripture to mind.

Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Does not this at least give some insight into how God is going to judge those who haven't heard?
There is also the issue of people not hearing because we were too lazy or afraid to tell them. Will not we be judged because we didn't share the message on a personal and corporate level?

[Micter]

I haven't had a chance to keep up on this whole series of thoughts due to some family problems, but just reading this last page brought this scripture to mind.

Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Does not this at least give some insight into how God is going to judge those who haven't heard?
There is also the issue of people not hearing because we were too lazy or afraid to tell them. Will not we be judged because we didn't share the message on a personal and corporate level?

Great thought. We (in this culture) have lost sight of the lost. In the land of prosperity we can no longer say "Silver and Gold we have none" but neither can we say "Rise up and Walk". We seem to be worried more about "our kingdoms" than we are about "God's Kingdom". In mt life I really want that to change.

[Crunchyriff]

I haven't had a chance to keep up on this whole series of thoughts due to some family problems, but just reading this last page brought this scripture to mind.

Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Does not this at least give some insight into how God is going to judge those who haven't heard?
There is also the issue of people not hearing because we were too lazy or afraid to tell them. Will not we be judged because we didn't share the message on a personal and corporate level?

As I read it Dave, it would suggest thet God just doesn't write off those folks...

[Crunchyriff]

Great thought. We (in this culture) have lost sight of the lost. In the land of prosperity we can no longer say "Silver and Gold we have none" but neither can we say "Rise up and Walk". We seem to be worried more about "our kingdoms" than we are about "God's Kingdom". In mt life I really want that to change.

I can honestly say that in my life, it IS changing, Micter; as it probably is with many of you here. All that stuff is being stripped away. If I end up with absolutely NOTHING, but Jesus, so be it. It is not a comfortable process at times, but I certainly do not seek the reverse.

[Micter]

Great thought. We (in this culture) have lost sight of the lost. In the land of prosperity we can no longer say "Silver and Gold we have none" but neither can we say "Rise up and Walk". We seem to be worried more about "our kingdoms" than we are about "God's Kingdom". In mt life I really want that to change.

I can honestly say that in my life, it IS changing, Micter; as it probably is with many of you here. All that stuff is being stripped away. If I end up with absolutely NOTHING, but Jesus, so be it. It is not a comfortable process at times, but I certainly do not seek the reverse.

Bro, I wasn't saying that in a any way other than "culturally" speaking. The church of this generation has lost it's way. I know you agree with that. As far as where you are spiritually, we have always been walking a parallel path. Since the day I ran across Crunchyriff on CMF on back to the CBBS we have been pretty much in the same place. All I want is to finish the race. More to finish strong and to take as many with me to the finish line as I can. It's obvious to me that you are in the same boat as I am.

You are my brother and my friend.

[Crunchyriff]

Bro, I wasn't taking issue at all with what you said. More or less I was underscoring your point, or at least attempting to.

I have been as guilty as anybody else at times of losing focus of what is really important.

[Brian]

The conversation has evolved from who believes what and why concerning spiritual gifts.

...The church of this generation has lost it's way...

:hmm: Has the NT church repeatedly lost it's way and seen renewal from the early church through today? Will the cycle continue in the future until after the Holy City descends after the judgement?

How has the church lost it's way today?

An associate of John Wesley, theologean John Clayton wrote... "There are circumstances often connected with revivals which are by no means essential to their general character.
(1) It is no indication of a genuine revival that there is great excitement. There may be real spiritual excitement, but often it is of an empty character; and there may be a true revival when all is calm and noiseless.
(2) Nor is it a certain evidence that great numbers profess to be converted.
There are facts frequently occurring amongst ourselves which prove that the Spirit has not forsaken us.
(1) Individual sermons are known to produce great results.
(2) Churches often receive members into fellowship without special efforts.
(3) Individual cases of conversion show the Spirit's operation."
(from The Biblical Illustrator Copyright © 2002, 2003 Ages Software, Inc. and Biblesoft, Inc.)

Does a return to the will of God by the church require more?

[Micter]

Bro, I wasn't taking issue at all with what you said. More or less I was underscoring your point, or at least attempting to.

I have been as guilty as anybody else at times of losing focus of what is really important.

I wasn;t saying anything negative. I know where you stand. I was letting you know I know, ya know? :D

[Crunchyriff]

The conversation has evolved from who believes what and why concerning spiritual gifts.

...The church of this generation has lost it's way...

:hmm: Has the NT church repeatedly lost it's way and seen renewal from the early church through today? Will the cycle continue in the future until after the Holy City descends after the judgement?

How has the church lost it's way today?

An associate of John Wesley, theologean John Clayton wrote... "There are circumstances often connected with revivals which are by no means essential to their general character.
(1) It is no indication of a genuine revival that there is great excitement. There may be real spiritual excitement, but often it is of an empty character; and there may be a true revival when all is calm and noiseless.
(2) Nor is it a certain evidence that great numbers profess to be converted.
There are facts frequently occurring amongst ourselves which prove that the Spirit has not forsaken us.
(1) Individual sermons are known to produce great results.
(2) Churches often receive members into fellowship without special efforts.
(3) Individual cases of conversion show the Spirit's operation."
(from The Biblical Illustrator Copyright © 2002, 2003 Ages Software, Inc. and Biblesoft, Inc.)

Does a return to the will of God by the church require more?

Brian, if I may, though it's easy by and large to paint with a broad brush, I'd say that the church of the western hemisphere has indeed lost its way to a degree. It is my estimation that this can be seen in the ranks of both seeker-sensitive churches, that by and large preach a pretty "safe" message so as to not ruffle any feathers with new attendees. Couple that with the propensity of certain denominations to now allow ordained, practicing homosexuals in the pulpit, and we have a pretty clear picture, IMHO. This sort of thing would not have been stood for 20 years ago.

Now I would like to make myself clear on this: I do not hate homosexuals. I believe they are loved by God just as He loves us. He hates sin of all types. I have no problem with a homosexual who is trying to find Christ, attending my church. I'll be happy to sit right next to them. They need love, compassion, & forgiveness, just like I did.

But when you have these unrepentant folks, who create homosexual churches for practicing homosexuals ('couples' and what not) , & a homosexual in the pulpit, this is another thing entirely. This is happening in churches out here.

It would be as scripturally absurd to a have a church for practicing murderers with an unrepentant Hitler as the Bishop; or, a Church for working burglars with an unrepentant Bonnie & Clyde for the senior pastors. Gee, we don't' agree with the 8th commandment in scripture, let's just ignore it..

But this is exactly what is happening in the gay and lesbian community right under our noses.

So, IMHO, when a people start basically ignoring scripture, yet live in this deluded fantasy world of false forgiveness, (or license...) and thinking they are just fine and dandy with God, there is something dreadfully wrong, and our generation as a whole is responsible for it being allowed...not that we ourselves ARE, but it is happening in our time, and God is going to hold somebody accountable.

I said something years ago, when Madonna released her '___' book of trash. I said this would open a pandora's box of license in media and entertainment to a degree of lows never seen before in a widespread fashion; but by the grace of God it would backfire and eventually turn people off and propel them out of the gutter into decency and seeking truth, and seeking God... I believe that we may in fact be starting to see the start of that. If only by the Grace of God. which leads me to this:

On the flip side, I see a positive backlash to what out generation has allowed. There is a new generation seeking real answers, seeking the truth. They are tired of people waffling with no real commitment and no backbone, no clear black and white, no boundaries...and scripturally speaking, seeking after the whole being of God, not just safe, comfy & sanitized notions. Some of the latest P&W to come out reflects this, IMHO.

In a similar vein, I think the movie The Passion had a part to play in this happening. It forced us to see the Gospel in all it's reality (as could possibly be done) in a depiction 2000 years after the event. We saw the temptation in a way never before, we saw the gut-wrenching agony of Christ grappling with His final assignment, we saw the absolute worst of humanity, both within and outside of Jesus' circle...and we finally saw the brunt of the world's sin cast upon Him that He welcomed in obedience; and finally, the unrestrained wrath of God poured out upon his own Son.

Completely un-sanitized. I don't know about you, but I have never been the same since seeing that movie. But I digress.

But this "losing our way" just isn't our generation, Brian. Humanity has done this cyclically since before Mt Sinai... IMHO. :(

[Brian]

Brian, if I may, though it's easy by and large to paint with a broad brush, I'd say that the church of the western hemisphere has indeed lost its way to a degree. It is my estimation that this can be seen in the ranks of both seeker-sensitive churches, that by and large preach a pretty "safe" message so as to not ruffle any feathers with new attendees. Couple that with the propensity of certain denominations to now allow ordained, practicing homosexuals in the pulpit, and we have a pretty clear picture, IMHO. This sort of thing would not have been stood for 20 years ago... But this "losing our way" just isn't our generation, Brian. Humanity has done this cyclically since before Mt Sinai... IMHO. :(

I agree with your last point but I confined my question to the NT church to better address, "how has church of this generation lost it's way?". Is that too broad a brush? Six (or possibly five) of the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea were revealed to have distinct problems; not spoken of collectively. Thirteen years ago my wife and I as new Christians tearfully left our (non-denominational) church home because of a completely unscriptural over-emphasis on spiritual gifts even we as newbies could see. Unfortunately the ""mature" in Christ" could/would not. I am so grateful to have found a denomination that accepts the operation of Spiritual Gifts when/to whom the Holy Spirit moves to dispense them for the edification of the church in a scriptural manner, but does not "require" them to show an evidence of the Holy Spirit working in me. (is this getting back to the original question? :yikes: )

God has recently moved mightily in our home church. The Sr Pastor of our church for the last 13 years (and who gave 38 years of his life to our church) fell ill unto the brink of death. The Lord healed him but chose not to restore him to the point he could resume his role as Sr Pastor. Which of the seven (or five) churches were we? The new Sr Pastor who starts today (!) is very evangelism minded, but more relationally oriented. He is called to "hang with pagans, giving grace to show the Love of Christ as a segue to sharing the Gospel. He has asked me to meet with him for 30 minutes on Thursday evening, and I hope to ask him to take a minute to help me understand something that slipped my mind during the interviews; what is the ratio of "love for God" to "fear God" mentioned in the NT, and should that have any bearing on the way we conduct ourselves and the church? (guess I took another turn at Albuquerque @@ )

[Wally]

Well, I really can't go along with that rational at all. I'll tell you why. If God gives us a word of knowledge the gift is there. It is up to us to either use it a la speak it out loud to the person it is intended or hold it in. We do have something to do with it. If God has gifted me with healing but I don't lay hands and pray for anyone sick who is stopping what? We have a choice just like salvation. We can choose to not accept Christ it is our free will.

I'm gonna derail this conversation for a second... :)

I don't expect to convert anyone to Calvinist/Reformed doctrine via an internet forum, but since Micter went and used the "f" word ( :D free will lol ) I want to bring up the doctrine of predestination. I believe the scriptures clearly teach that our salvation is a complete gift of God's grace - we choose Him only because He first chose us - before the creation of the world! I believe this means that He truly chose us, and didn't just look forward in time and know which of us would choose Him. This is the filter through which I view these issues we are discussing, and I think that the fate of those who have not heard the Gospel has to be viewed only thorough what scripture teaches us.

I don't call myself a Calvinist because of John Calvin, but because I believe that the doctrines labeled "Calvinism" are biblically correct. I encourage you to consider the Calvinist doctrines - I realize that they go against what many of us have been taught (and assumed) about the role we play in our salvation. Most churches are Arminian in their views on this topic (mans role in salvation/free will). I did not come to an understanding of these doctrines until about 10 years ago. My only exposure to them prior to that had been negative distorted views that I had read in books written from an Arminian perspective. I recommend Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology as an excellent introduction and overview of theology written from a reformed baptist perspective.

I just threw this in to try to give a better idea of where I am coming from as I respond to this and other threads. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on predestination. I am aware of the arguments against it and have wrestled with them myself. I am also aware that there are scriptures that seem to contradict - but I believe we have to interpret scripture in light of scripture, and to me, the scriptures that seem to contradict predestination don't do so when read in the light of those that clearly support predestination.

Now back to the discussion already in progress :yeah:

[Wally]

We can only guess. Now, stick with me as this seems a bit abstract; but if God shows no partiality, then why do just SOME get to HEAR the message? I'm not sure God is that way as we might think. So, what about those who never heard the message? God indeed knows who each and every one of those souls are. He knows who have had a chance to hear the gospel message on earth, and who hasn't. I take exception to something a preacher I respect, who recently said: "every person who has seen the awesome works of God in nature, already have had a chance to accept or reject his Son." (paraphrased) while using this verse as the qualifier: "because the Bible says the whole earth is full of His glory"


Hope that explains it, bro.

Crunchy - thanks for expounding on that. I am not defending the preacher you mentioned, as I do not know the entire context in which he was speaking, but it sounds like he was referring to Romans 1: 18-32. I think that passage certainly applies to our society - I am thinking specifically of the creation vs. evolution vs. intelligent design debates raging in the science and academic communities.

I read a book once (I think by Tony Campolo) that used the "God outside of time" idea to reconcile the contradiction between the teaching that our soul goes immediately to be with the Lord when we die and the opposite teaching that our soul sleeps until the return of the Lord ( "soul sleep" ). Your reference to fixed time and space reminded me of it.

[Micter]

Brian

By in large the western church has gone flat. The doctrine being taught is more of a humanistic feel good "Jesus Loves you no matter what" type of thing.Although that is basically true the other side of the coin is Jesus will judge sin. Many denominations have forsaken a stance against sin as a way to keep their numbers up. You can't preach against sin and have people stick around. You have to make people feel good or they'll leave. Hogwash! The Jesus that I know preached against sin and taught us to hate sin. I know this is painting a broad picture but we have churches that openly allow sin, we have so much false doctrine being slung out. Doctrine like spiritual gifts are no longer a part of the church as well as doctrine that says if you don't speak in tongues you aren't saved. Things like Cruncy mentioned, homosexual churches and openly homosexul leaders. I have seen a lot of churches that are nothing more than a social club. No passion for worship, no heart for the lost, no spiritual life. The thing I see is a group of people that are looking at their building as some great accomplishment and trying to maintain their little club. That to me is not only sad but completely sinful. In our culture many openly mock God thus we are afraid to mention the name of Jesus. Think about it. Jesus was brutally killed for his stance against sin and the church help firm and saw revival. We fill churches with a watered down gospel that isn't anything like what is taught in scripture. . It's a sad thing that the word of God has been twisted and perverted by the enemy and we accept it. God is trying to wake the church from it's slumber but by in large we think we have it all together and God should just leave us alone.

[Micter]

Well, I really can't go along with that rational at all. I'll tell you why. If God gives us a word of knowledge the gift is there. It is up to us to either use it a la speak it out loud to the person it is intended or hold it in. We do have something to do with it. If God has gifted me with healing but I don't lay hands and pray for anyone sick who is stopping what? We have a choice just like salvation. We can choose to not accept Christ it is our free will.

I'm gonna derail this conversation for a second... :)

I don't expect to convert anyone to Calvinist/Reformed doctrine via an internet forum, but since Micter went and used the "f" word ( :D free will lol ) I want to bring up the doctrine of predestination. I believe the scriptures clearly teach that our salvation is a complete gift of God's grace - we choose Him only because He first chose us - before the creation of the world! I believe this means that He truly chose us, and didn't just look forward in time and know which of us would choose Him. This is the filter through which I view these issues we are discussing, and I think that the fate of those who have not heard the Gospel has to be viewed only thorough what scripture teaches us.

I don't call myself a Calvinist because of John Calvin, but because I believe that the doctrines labeled "Calvinism" are biblically correct. I encourage you to consider the Calvinist doctrines - I realize that they go against what many of us have been taught (and assumed) about the role we play in our salvation. Most churches are Arminian in their views on this topic (mans role in salvation/free will). I did not come to an understanding of these doctrines until about 10 years ago. My only exposure to them prior to that had been negative distorted views that I had read in books written from an Arminian perspective. I recommend Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology as an excellent introduction and overview of theology written from a reformed baptist perspective.

I just threw this in to try to give a better idea of where I am coming from as I respond to this and other threads. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on predestination. I am aware of the arguments against it and have wrestled with them myself. I am also aware that there are scriptures that seem to contradict - but I believe we have to interpret scripture in light of scripture, and to me, the scriptures that seem to contradict predestination don't do so when read in the light of those that clearly support predestination.

Now back to the discussion already in progress :yeah:

I'm not sure that doctrine is solid. I see that God calls us and we need to respond to that call. We love him because he first loved us 100% true. can he first love us and we turn away? Judas is the perfect example of that. To say that we have no free will in our salvation is biblically incorrect as far as I see it. Adam and Eve went against God's will for their lives. They chose to disobey. Secondly it takes away our responsibility to preach the Gospel to the lost.

This is one of those things that can be argued but I can't see anything good come form it so I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[Crunchyriff]

Brian IMHO, much of the body has lost it's passion, and retrained the focus of its first love- on other things, sometimes those that at cursory glance, might be 'acceptable' and God- like. I admit to having been part of the problem at times, and maybe guilty in the past of one or more of the things I will list here:

1. When we start to claim this pew or that pew, or row of chairs "ours" and get bent out of shape that somebody else is sitting there, we've lost our focus. And we've forgotten WHOSE house it really is supposed to be. We should be thankful that these is another there, another snatched from the devil.

2. When we put more intrinsic emphasis on programs (and perhaps the number of them) than on individual outreach contact & compassion, we've lost focus. Any effective ministry starts at the individual level. It does not happen in reverse. It must start in the heart of each believer.

3. When we the body, allow our own daughters and women (as well as males) to enter a sanctuary clearly in disregard for modesty dressed in clearly provocative wear, we have OBVIOUSLY lost focus. Low-cut jeans and slacks which purposely expose the midriff, as well as tops that well-expose or amplify cleavage; and well-open shirts and/or pants hanging at mid-buttock or anything that exposes undergarments for males...these things should not be tolerated in our kids and in ourselves.... we have lost focus.

4. Similarly, when we require suits & ties to enter the sanctuary for men, and long dresses for women, we again have lost focus. Demanding an exterior "Sunday best". I'm not for intentionally dressing in a haggard, unkempt fashion, but might Christ's heart attitude about this be the same as it was the day he went to Mary & Martha's home? Martha was scurrying around making sure everything was 'in it's place' & 'presentable' & having a fit that Mary wasn't doing the same, while Mary was sitting at Jesus' feet. We know the rest of that story... somebody had lost focus.

5. When we put more emphasis on technology in the sanctuary, than in seeking Christ on our faces- we've lost focus.

6. When it's more about how many attendees we have each service more than how many fill the altar area, we've lost focus

7. When a very popular pastor that I respect, publicly ( and dangerously, IMHO) says about prophecy: "it is NOT for today because I don't need it and if it IS for today I don't WANT it - I have the Bible and that's all I need" ...and this is promulgated over the airwaves, we've lost focus. Somebody has. We are supposed to want & worship The One who wrote the book, not the book itself.

8. When we care more about getting our weekly starbucks, than helping some child in a third-world country, we have lost focus.

9. When we assume we are "God's keeper" and dictate what He can, can't and won't do (and WHEN), we have lost focus.

...as well as things we have already covered in this thread, and probably more we haven't.

IMHO.

That said- I am excited for you and your wife where you attend. Sounds like the right place to be!





:dunno: :)

[Micter]

7. When a very popular pastor that I respect, publicly ( and dangerously, IMHO) says about prophecy: "it is NOT for today because I don't need it and if it IS for today I don't WANT it - I have the Bible and that's all I need" ...and this is promulgated over the airwaves, we've lost focus.

That doctrine is straight from the pit of hell. IMHO

[Brian]

...I see that God calls us and we need to respond to that call. We love him because he first loved us 100% true. can he first love us and we turn away? Judas is the perfect example of that. To say that we have no free will in our salvation is biblically incorrect as far as I see it. Adam and Eve went against God's will for their lives. They chose to disobey. Secondly it takes away our responsibility to preach the Gospel to the lost...

Certainly not trying to incite but Judas Iscariot is a peculiar case. Any chance it can be said that God used him as an important participant in His plan for our salvation? Yes scripture clearly states satan entered Judas and put it into his heart to betray Jesus. But Jesus was going to be delivered up to be crucified. satan tho unaware of the plan of salvation (1Pet 1:12) could not persuade Jesus to abandon His mission to die for us. Was satan allowed to work in Judas as he was allowed to work over Job? Judas' suicide was clearly a desparate act of remorse (& repentance?). I hestitate to speculate without firm scriptural evidence but did Judas really have free will?

[Micter]

...I see that God calls us and we need to respond to that call. We love him because he first loved us 100% true. can he first love us and we turn away? Judas is the perfect example of that. To say that we have no free will in our salvation is biblically incorrect as far as I see it. Adam and Eve went against God's will for their lives. They chose to disobey. Secondly it takes away our responsibility to preach the Gospel to the lost...

Certainly not trying to incite but Judas Iscariot is a peculiar case. Any chance it can be said that God used him as an important participant in His plan for our salvation? Yes scripture clearly states satan entered Judas and put it into his heart to betray Jesus. But Jesus was going to be delivered up to be crucified. satan tho unaware of the plan of salvation (1Pet 1:12) could not persuade Jesus to abandon His mission to die for us. Was satan allowed to work in Judas as he was allowed to work over Job? Judas' suicide was clearly a desparate act of remorse (& repentance?). I hestitate to speculate without firm scriptural evidence but did Judas really have free will?

Of course he did. Jesus "CHOSE" Judas and he sold out for 30 pieces of silver. The fact that he was tempted by money doesn't change the fact that had he chosen to walk upright he would have been given the same opportunity the other 11 had. Jesus paint's that picture at the last supper. The comment "haven't I chosen the 12 of you? Yet one of you will betray me. " tells me that Jesus put the same calling on Judas as the rest of the deciples. Judas chose to disregard that calling for some silver. Resist the devil and he will flee.

[Brian]

By in large the western church has gone flat. The doctrine being taught is more of a humanistic feel good "Jesus Loves you no matter what" type of thing... I know this is painting a broad picture but we have churches that openly allow sin, we have so much false doctrine being slung out... We fill churches with a watered down gospel that isn't anything like what is taught in scripture... God is trying to wake the church from it's slumber...

Aye, it's a broad brush you paint with. I've had a bellyfull of meaningless words preached at me in sermons using scriptural references from a paraphrase version that even then didn't fit the topic they were being used to illustrate, purchased off the internet from a very popular pastor. I thank God that the church my wife and I attend today is none of the things you and Crunchy speak of.

But I think that some of the points being made earlier about helping the poor, giving of yourself, being a servant... are definitely fruits of the Spirit and right on.

[Micter]

By in large the western church has gone flat. The doctrine being taught is more of a humanistic feel good "Jesus Loves you no matter what" type of thing... I know this is painting a broad picture but we have churches that openly allow sin, we have so much false doctrine being slung out... We fill churches with a watered down gospel that isn't anything like what is taught in scripture... God is trying to wake the church from it's slumber...

Aye, it's a broad brush you paint with. I've had a bellyfull of meaningless words preached at me in sermons using scriptural references from a paraphrase version that even then didn't fit the topic they were being used to illustrate, purchased off the internet from a very popular pastor. I thank God that the church my wife and I attend today is none of the things you and Crunchy speak of.

But I think that some of the points being made earlier about helping the poor, giving of yourself, being a servant... are definitely fruits of the Spirit and right on.

OK, did you have a difficult time finding a church that lined up with dcripture or did you just walk into a place that was right doctrinly speaking.

I know I had seen many a church that just didn't have sound doctrine.

[Crunchyriff]

7. When a very popular pastor that I respect, publicly ( and dangerously, IMHO) says about prophecy: "it is NOT for today because I don't need it and if it IS for today I don't WANT it - I have the Bible and that's all I need" ...and this is promulgated over the airwaves, we've lost focus.

That doctrine is straight from the pit of hell. IMHO

I believe so.

This man is clearly a cessationist, and of a baptist denomination at that (why am I not surprised....). He has a "Dr." title, and has a wide audience on radio, TV, and has online devotionals.

The sad thing is, I felt much of his teaching was scripturally healthy and well-done... that its, until I heard him on that particular broadcast... with his denominational heritage ( or in spite of it) I was hoping that he had a more factual picture to paint that that... nope, it was the same offal I was taught as a youngster.

Basically he was writing off "spiritual gifts" for today, and teaching that the fruit of the spirit ( a completely different thing) ARE the gifts for today, and nothing more than that. He was calling today's prophets basically false, that they do not exist because prophecy is not "neccesary for today".
Again, his excuse for this was "we have the complete word of God, and those folks didn't..." yadda yadda yadda...

For somebody with a doctorate in theology, he should know better than that... and the sad thing is, he probably does; but doesn't want to "go there" publicly.. I dunno.

The day I heard this broadcast in what he said and how he said it and why- it grieved my spirit.

[Brian]

...OK, did you have a difficult time finding a church that lined up with scripture or did you just walk into a place that was right doctrinally speaking. I know I had seen many a church that just didn't have sound doctrine.

After the experience we had with a non-denominational charismatic church justifying unscriptural "gifts" by holding up God's Holy Word and (actually) saying "It's not all in there..." we visited one other church we liked that was non-denominational but we were still nervous about getting into another church with no accountability to a larger church body. (a few years later discovered that church had applied for and been chartered by our denomination) I passed another church every day on my way to & from work, and felt the Holy Spirit moving me to investigate. After a week or so of "feeling moved" He screamed at me in that still small voice to "get in there" so I quickly pulled in on the way home, and met the (new) Sr Pastor on his way out. We talked for about 30 minutes and I knew my this church was going to be the church home for our family. During the subsequent 13 years, our congregation has seen excellent preaching, teaching, an active community outreach, missions, growth, and church plants. But no earthly church is perfect. More recently there were "down times" including the bellyfull of sermons I mentioned before. Perhaps now I'm being overly optimistic but God has moved mightily and chosen a new shepherd to care for, guide, and feed us with God's Word, but I am excited for our church.

Our denomination is also apparently going through change. The doctrinal beliefs and philosophy I have heard stated by the regional superintendant for the 8 western states during our recent face to face Pastor candidate interviews appear to indicate we are moving into what IMHO is that elusive sweet spot. I can't say every church in our region will exhibit this right now because our congregation has the newest leader in the region, and we will be under regional supervision without a local Elder Board for a minimum of 12 months.

If you are interested, PM me and I can provide you some more information about our denomination. Pehaps there may be a congregation in your area that you might be comfortable with; even excited about.

[Micter]

Brian

Great story! I really like hearing how God deals with people in guiding them to where they need to be.

I would definatley like to hear more about the place you are going but I'm right where God wants me. I'm in a place where, like you, we are seeing a very great move of God's spirit. Of all the things going on I'm most impressed with how many teenagers are completely sold out. The number of new salvations is incredible.

It's funny, I had been invited to this Church for years. I just didn't want to drive that far to church 2 or 3 times a week. One of my really good friends (the guy that I teach guitar to his 14 year old daughter) has been backslidden for a number of years called me one day. He told me he was going to start going to this church with his wife and kids. I was shocked to be honest. I went on the next Sunday just to hang out with my bro that was in church for the first time in years. I had not seen anything like what is going on there in close to 20 years.

[Wally]

I'm not sure that doctrine is solid. Secondly it takes away our responsibility to preach the Gospel to the lost.

This is one of those things that can be argued but I can't see anything good come form it so I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Don't let my poor explanation of reformed doctrine prevent you from exploring it further!

As to preaching the Gospel, your comment is a common one, but not correct - the Lord requires us to preach the Gospel, and that is the only reason we need - we (His church) are His chosen means for spreading the Gospel, and since we do not know who He will call, we must preach the Gospel to all.

[Micter]

I'm not sure that doctrine is solid. Secondly it takes away our responsibility to preach the Gospel to the lost.

This is one of those things that can be argued but I can't see anything good come form it so I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Don't let my poor explanation of reformed doctrine prevent you from exploring it further!

As to preaching the Gospel, your comment is a common one, but not correct - the Lord requires us to preach the Gospel, and that is the only reason we need - we (His church) are His chosen means for spreading the Gospel, and since we do not know who He will call, we must preach the Gospel to all.

Trust me I've studied Calvanism vs. Arminianism.

[Micter]

Wally

Sorry, I didn't have a lot of time to address the "reformed" doctrine you were speaking about.

Here we go!

If we actually have nothing to do with our salvation. That does make the preaching of the word as far as evangelism totally moot. If God is going to save whom he wishes and we have no decision in the matter it wouldn't make any difference if we "go ye" or not. That point takes it out of the rhelm of sound doctrine as far as I am concerned. I just remember 23 years ago when I came to the knowledge of Christ. I was confronted with the gospel as a young man. I responded definately because I was drawn by the Holy Spirit but I fully had a choise to make. Had I blown it off I would not have experienced the miracle of salvation at that moment. I did respond thank God.

I think the hardest point to swallow of Calvinism is that Christ only died for the elect. I see the nature of Christ as being quite different. Asking the Father to forgive those who were nailing him to the cross shows a heart for all humanity. Jesus (God) knew before time who would respond to the call but I do think his love and mercy is extended to many that reject him. Things like 2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If it is God's will for ALL to come to repentance then he must have made a way for ALL to come to repentence. Again this is a hard discussion and not really on track with the subject at hand except for the fact that the reformed doctrine seems to shy away from the power of God and leans toward sola scriptura.

I again wish to thank you for the cordial dialog. :smart:

[Crunchyriff]

IMHO if we have nothing to do with our salvation, Jesus would not have said "whosoever will..."

IMHO. :)

[Micter]

IMHO if we have nothing to do with our salvation, Jesus would not have said "whosoever will..."

IMHO. :)

Yup