In Ear Monitors?

[hotraman]

Hello everyone;
Would like to get opinions from you great people
We use the Aviom system for our church worship team.
Drummer and bass player use headphones.
I would like to move our vocalists and others into using IEM's.
Any recommendations?
I own the Shure E2 and they are so-so... no low end at all.
Thanks!
Steve

[SAguitar]

I'm currently using the Westone UM2 set and they are very nice, and are a double driver. I would consider them a big step up from the Shure E2. If I get them placed just right in my ears I get lots of the whole spectrum.

That set is soon going to be my backup set though, because I am almost ready to get a HearYourself C3 acrylic molded set made for my ears. Those are triple drivers. I've been worrying about what I would do if I wrecked my only set. Maybe I'm paranoid, or maybe I'm just careful, but I always try to have a backup for everything nearby, just in case.

If you're interested in reading about them, you can find them at...

www.hearyourself.com

[hotraman]

Triple drivers may be the way to go for me.
What are you receiving them thru?
Shure wireless or something else?

[SAguitar]

Yeah, when I heard the difference between single drivers and dual drivers, of course I started hungering for a triple! I know the difference won't be as great single and dual, but it should be a little better, and short of worship itself, my major passion in life is sound, so if I can't have my JBL floor monitors, I want to hear the best in can in those little in-ears!

I'm using the Sennheiser EW300-IEM G2 wireless unit for my in-ears, and it's pretty nice! It's expensive, but very nice! They just use two AA batteries, which are cheaper than nine volts, too.

I also have the Sennheiser EW172-G2 wireless instrument receiver, and the SK 100 Bodypack Transmitter for my guitar (or bass).

I've been using the little Avioms now for about 8 months, and am finally starting to like it. It took me a very long time, and many different methods to finally arrive at guitar tones that I could live with. Bass was much easier, and the drums, keys and vocals all sounded fine, but getting overdriven guitar was very difficult. It's coming along now, and way back in the beginning, my worship pastor warned me the learning curve wouldn't be easy. He started with in-ears about 4-5 months before I did.

[Crunchyriff]

Our band bought an Aviom system a few months ago, along with a Yamaha 01V/96khz board; and we went all IEM's.

I had Shure E5's set that just recently got replaced with the Westone UM2's- which I really like better- they are far better in bass than the E5's at almost half the price. The only problem is fitting- I thought the included Shure plugs, for my ears anyway, sealed better than the UM2's- which is a BIG key to attaining proper freq response with IEM's...so I'm going to have a pair of molded plugs fitted for my ears here in a week or two. The company that does them is about 15 minutes from my house.

That's a good tip on the triple driver IEM's...but did you check the freq specs? the triple only goes from 10Hz-16kHz- the Dual drivers go from 10Hz- 22kHz!

FWIW- We are using all MIPRO stereo UHF wireless systems for our IEM's.

[Swarty]

I just couldn't get comfortable w/ the Aviom system. I was always fidgetting with the earbuds or messing w/ the mix... I found it to be very distracting. I also have a wee bit of tinitus which was aggrivated by the apparent increased SPL. Current solution: move in close to the drummer (who resides in a plexiglass fishbowl), and rely on the EAW wedges the leader (on piano) and singers use. I can here the bass in the house.

[SAguitar]

Our band bought an Aviom system a few months ago, along with a Yamaha 01V/96khz board; and we went all IEM's.

I had Shure E5's set that just recently got replaced with the Westone UM2's- which I really like better- they are far better in bass than the E5's at almost half the price. The only problem is fitting- I thought the included Shure plugs, for my ears anyway, sealed better than the UM2's- which is a BIG key to attaining proper freq response with IEM's...so I'm going to have a pair of molded plugs fitted for my ears here in a week or two. The company that does them is about 15 minutes from my house.

That's a good tip on the triple driver IEM's...but did you check the freq specs? the triple only goes from 10Hz-16kHz- the Dual drivers go from 10Hz- 22kHz!

FWIW- We are using all MIPRO stereo UHF wireless systems for our IEM's.

I agree with you about the UM2s versus Shures. To me, they just sound cleaner, and clearer, with much better bottom end presence, and better over all the spectrum. I also agree about the Shure plugs, I'm using some Shures on my UM2s and they fit much better.

I just did check out the freq specs on HearYourself which is, like you said 10hz-16khz. The set I'm using now, the UM2s, are rated at 20hz-18khz, not too much different. I may not hear as much hiss and cymbals, which I wouldn't mind, and I might hear a little more thump, and that I would like.

[hotraman]

Our band bought an Aviom system a few months ago, along with a Yamaha 01V/96khz board; and we went all IEM's.

I had Shure E5's set that just recently got replaced with the Westone UM2's- which I really like better- they are far better in bass than the E5's at almost half the price. The only problem is fitting- I thought the included Shure plugs, for my ears anyway, sealed better than the UM2's- which is a BIG key to attaining proper freq response with IEM's...so I'm going to have a pair of molded plugs fitted for my ears here in a week or two. The company that does them is about 15 minutes from my house.

That's a good tip on the triple driver IEM's...but did you check the freq specs? the triple only goes from 10Hz-16kHz- the Dual drivers go from 10Hz- 22kHz!

FWIW- We are using all MIPRO stereo UHF wireless systems for our IEM's.

I agree with you about the UM2s versus Shures. To me, they just sound cleaner, and clearer, with much better bottom end presence, and better over all the spectrum. I also agree about the Shure plugs, I'm using some Shures on my UM2s and they fit much better.

I just did check out the freq specs on HearYourself which is, like you said 10hz-16khz. The set I'm using now, the UM2s, are rated at 20hz-18khz, not too much different. I may not hear as much hiss and cymbals, which I wouldn't mind, and I might hear a little more thump, and that I would like.

Stan;
That's what I'm looking for as well.
Does HearYourself customize them for a wireless transmitter?
or do you have to do that yourself?
Thanks
Steve

[SAguitar]

Steve, you don't have to customize them. All the in-ears come with a standard little stereo plug that you can plug into a wireless receiver on your hip, or directly into the Aviom mixer (with and adapter, since its jack is 1/4"), or an Ipod, or CD player, or whatever! :cool:

[hotraman]

Thanks, Stan.
I was a little slow on the intake on that one.
I had some ear molds made this week.
I'm going to try to place an order soon.
I think I'm going to try the live wires.
can't beat the cost, they're dual drivers.

[SAguitar]

Very cool, Steve! Please let us know what you think about them once you've tried them for a little while. There is an interesting learning curve! :cool:

I'm using a set of Westone UM2s right now, but I've got to have a backup set, so I think I'm going to try the HearYouself.com triple drivers next. It never ends... :hmm:

[jono007]

FWIW, we use avioms at church too, and i use Shure E3s which seem to work pretty well. When I lead worship, I take the output from one aviom into a Mipro for my IEM.

I recently got a Samson Airline wireless transmitter, so I'm gonna try wireless IEM and wireless guit... like SAguitar...

[jono007]

i hear good things about the Westone's ...

[DTownSMR]

I would like to move our vocalists and others into using IEM's.
Any recommendations?

You may also want to also check out Future Sonics http://www.futuresonics.com/ our team uses their older EM3's

[prscustom24]

Before getting too worked up about frequency response -- 10Hz - 22KHz vs 20Hz - 18KHz vs DC to Light :cool:, find out what your ears respond to, and don't be surprised if they show a notch or two, and roll off completely below about 30, and above about thirteen five. :(

[SAguitar]

Before getting too worked up about frequency response -- 10Hz - 22KHz vs 20Hz - 18KHz vs DC to Light :cool:, find out what your ears respond to, and don't be surprised if they show a notch or two, and roll off completely below about 30, and above about thirteen five. :(

Another True Factoid, dear friends. :cool:

[hotraman]

I went ahead and ordered a set of the new Shure E 5s ( though they have a new model number)
I have a 30 day trial exchange to send it back if I don't like them.
FWIW, I went with the Senn wireless system, & using it with our Aviom...
its pretty sweet.
I've made it mandatory for all of my vocalists to go IEM starting this Sunday.

[TheViking]

I get to test quite a few of these systems since I play with a lot of goofballs all the time hehe.

To me the ultimate ear plugs are these. Ultimate Ears UE-10 Pro

http://www.headphone.com/productphotos/large/0020380001_1073.jpg

Not cheap at all $950, but they rock

If you don't want to spend that kind of money they have a really nice set Ultimate Ears UE-5C at $ 399
http://www.headphone.com/productphotos/large/0020380016_1979.jpg

they both have plenty of low end and punch. For acoustic/ mellow music I prefer the Ultimate Ears UE-5C at $550 they do not have the same punchy low end as the other two, but the dynamics are soooooo smooth you won't believe it.
http://w ww.headphone.com/productphotos/large/0020380005_1069.jpg

[indianrock]

$900 for in-ear phones? Wow. I'm on the worship team of a small church ( under 200 adults ). I have spent that kind of money on a guitar, but I sure don't see our church investing a lot of money to move from wedge monitors to in-ear -- not at that kind of price anyway. I've been researching the subject and even tested a Rolls pm351 and Shure earphones at our practice. I know in-ear is a worthy goal with many positive aspects, but I also see some downsides for the small church with modest budget. Migrating only part of the team to in-ear presents problems like risking ear damage if someone with a wedge points there microphone into it. Some of our musicians don't have a microphone so those with earphones would not be able to hear anything they said. If someone shows up too late to plug in their phones, or forgets them, they'd have to sit out. Enforcing policies on worship team members might be easy in a large church where there is a waiting list of people who want to join -- not as easy where you barely have enough to function. One other fact is that you need a sound person on hand at practices, not just Sunday morning -- if the monitor mix is off you could still function with wedges, but I think in-ear would be horrible if someone wasn't tweaking the monitor mix.
It's probably just a case of small churches needing to realize they don't need to do ( probably can't do ) everything the large ones are doing. We may just improve our main PA speaker system, keep the wedges as low as possible and carry on with that arrangement.
Randy

[SAguitar]

Indianrock, welcome to our forum!

Let me address a few of your issues. FWIW, our church budget is not paying for our worship team's move into the in-ear monitor world. There's no way our budget could ever absorb that hit. We are moving into it in an incremental way, and we only have about half of the people on stage using the in-ears right now. As far as money goes, we have been blessed to have a few people donate gifts specifically to our ministry, and one of those was used to buy the Aviom unit that is the heart of the system, and resides at the board. Members of our team have also contributed above and beyond their regular giving to this project, to purchase the individual Aviom mixer units. We expect the musicians to provide their own in-ear phones, so they can buy whatever level they are comfortable with. Some of our players are using cheaper phones that came with an Ipod, and some are using custom molded in-ear phones, that's up to the individual.

Our singers have been instructed well enough, and are now professional enough to not point a mic into a monitor, so we don't have to deal with that issue! We do expect a sound tech to show up for rehearsals, that's just a part of their ministry, but they don't have anything to do with in-ear mixes, that is done by the individual with their own Aviom monitor. They just mix the house and the remaining floor monitors. If there is some mix-up and they don't show up, one of us will run out to the board, and make necessary adjustments when necessary.

Just because we're a larger church than yours, please don't assume that we have a surplus of willing hearts and talents. We don't. We continually pray for more, and regularly ask for them to audition but the harvest is small. We too have barely enough to function, and realize that we are overworking too many key servants. That's just a fact, it's been this way for years, and we're still trying to pray through that. We realize that being involved with the worship team is one of the most time intensive ministry positions at our church. That's just another fact.

As far as the punctuality issue, we used to struggle with that also. We have addressed it as being something we do to respect and honor our fellow servant's lives and time, not to mention our God. Waiting for someone to show up can only foster bad attitudes in the ones who had to interrupt something, or leave something undone in their lives to get there on time. This is not a good preparation for a worthy offering. Jesus wants us to love and honor each other, and being punctual is simple an element of that love. Since we have made this one of our core standards in our ministry, the incidences of tardiness have diminished to virtually none.

[indianrock]

Thanks for the quick and thoughtful response. I'll continue my research, there's no rush. A few of the things I'm finding that I think should be considered in our situation: 1) those that are more picky about tone such as guitarists are probably not going to be happy with low-end phones such as the Shure E2c's I'm testing . 2) the one monitor mix/send we have, with no effects/reverb and the channel EQs identical for monitor and mains probably won't work with in-ear

I'm using a Carvin AE185 guitar with two 1/4 inch outputs going through two different multieffects -- one to a miked tube amp and the other direct to mixer. Now that the tone is coming together, I'm reluctant to sacrifice what I'm hearing in phones. But I digress into the tone abyss.
Randy

[SAguitar]

Ahhh yes, the Tone Abyss! I've been there, heck, I live there! Guitarists, especially electric guitarists, do seem to have a mad passion for that elusive tone. Is it a strength, or weakness? Both, I guess.

We've been on this in-ear thing path now for over a year, and like I mentioned, we're only about halfway there. Our goal is still the same, to reduce stage volume so the guys at the soundboard have a better chance at mixing, and to reduce the ongoing complaints about noise. I've often said that if it's too loud for someone, there's a nice little church down the road with an organ and a piano. But that's the extent of my gift of mercy showing.

We tried for a month or so, to just eliminate all instrument monitors from the stage, so my guitar amp went away, I went direct from a Boss GT-6 into the board, and I detested the tones I was getting. Thankfully, our worship leader said that tactic eliminated too much of the stage volume removing all the ambient "feel" of playing among other musicians, and left the vocalists feeling detached from the band, and kinda "naked" out there. That was wonderful news to me! So we brought the guitar amps back, and the bass player's speaker back on stage, and mic'd the guitars again. Much better results! We got decent tones happening again, and the "feel" on stage was much better. One nice thing about using this system is that you can have the stage amps playing at a much lower volume and still be able to hear them because you can control that with your own personal monitor levels.

We have found a solution to the not being able to talk to each other by hanging a couple of ambient mics over the stage, and assigning them to a channel on the Avioms. That's helped a lot! You can hear talking, but if want to whisper something to someone, they will have to take out one earphone to hear you. Some of us even play with only one ear phone in, and that is a good solution, also.

It is a long row to hoe, so don't get in a big hurry! That's wise. Musicians have feelings, too, and a lot of them don't like change!

[indianrock]

I've read that using IEM's in one-ear only is risky -- the tendency is to turn it up too loud since only one ear is involved. I've also heard of churches/pastors/worship leaders ( after much prayer) actually drawing a line in the sand in favor of contemporary worship styles -- that is, lovingly informing those who want only hymns on a pipe organ they are free to move on. In our little rural church we could lose our core members if we went too far in that direction, but the "oldsters" have been very understanding. I do try to include a hymn on a regular basis.

http://coolcalvary.com/
Cool, California is a real place!

[SAguitar]

Oh, bother! One ear is not risky, unless your groups on stage volume is ridiculously loud! I have had everything set fine with both ears in, then taken one out, and been just fine, and it sounded even better. I usually take out the one that is opposite of where my drummer is.

I served for 5 long years on a worship team in a 100 year old church, trying to get them to move towards contemporary, and that can be a very, very hard chore, if they are not totally committed to the path. Eventually, I felt called to move on. I'm now in a church that started out contemporary, and that is so much easier. We still do have a contingent of older folks (and now I could be considered one of them, at 57), and occasionally we will "throw them a bone," as our worship pastor calls it, and do a hymn, but it won't sound like an old style hymn, we have to give it our own twist.

[jono007]

my 2c...

We encourage all our musos to get their own earphones or headphones. Our church has some cheapo ones which we use if someone forgets theirs, but it makes them look like Princess Leah from Star Wars.

We have gone ampless on stage for about a year. It works fine. We still have monitors on stage which feed vox and band separately but are at a level that the sound techs can handle - which isn't enought for guitarists, but sufficient for keyboards and vox.