knowledge vs. experience

[mattd]

which would you prefer for the pastor at your church? someone young who has just completed seminary and has a PHD in theology, but no practical experience working in the church? or would you rather be in a church pastored by someone who has never been to college, but instead has learned everything he knows by working in a ministry position for 40+ years, learning from the guidance of the holy spirit as well as coworkers? who would you feel better about leading your church?


this is not a situation that's facing me, the question comes from a conversation with my girlfriend about how some churches won't even consider someone who doesn't have a religion degree.

[Crunchyriff]

Not only is a DEGREE mandatory for most, so is a denominational membership card...

I prefer one who God wants to pastor. Period. Degree or none.

If it were my choice alone, I'd certainly prefer "experience". God doesn't always work that way, though.

Some pastoral folks will joke at times about having been to "cemetery"....uhh "seminary" and though it's a playful jab, oftentimes there is a boatload of truth in that.

I keep thinking about something that Jesus told the pharisees in His several "woes" to them in Mt 23:13-33. all of these scathing, dire judgments; but one in particular stands out amongst them as perhaps the most severe: Mt 23:15

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves...."

I believe this is valid today as it was when He spoke it.

[MrMike]

The first church went to when I was born again was a small Church of Christ in Iowa. After a couple of years, we got a new pastor who was 25 and had just received his Master's of Divinity. He certainly had the public speaking skills, and I'm sure that he would have had a promising career as an administrator of some type, but he just wasn't a people person. We left that church within a year. It later turned out that he wasn't even writing his own sermons; he was downloading them off the Internet. That in itself is not necessarily a problem, but he was passing them off as his own. He was subsequently dismissed. This was over 10 years ago, and that same church continues to struggle.

I have also attended several churches where the pastors were lay people who had gone through the ordination process. While they lacked the "slickness" (for lack of a better term) that a more educated pastor would have, they showed a true heart for genuine ministry.

While I'm certainly not about to claim that education is a bad thing, I would certainly say that, at least in my experience, a pastor who has God's call and anointing on his life will be more effective than a pastor who doesn't but has a degree.

Of course, having both would be ideal. :)

[MrsMike]

[quote="MrMike"] we got a new pastor who was 25 and had just received his Master's of Divinity...He was subsequently dismissed. This was over 10 years ago, and that same church continues to struggle.

I talked with a good friend who still attends that church. This former pastor went on teach at the college level for a year and is now in real estate. ??? I feel bad for him. Did he think he was called when he wasn't? Did he find himself in over his head? Was he perhaps called to church administration and get off track? Did he get burned somewhere along the way? Ya gotta wonder.

While they lacked the "slickness" (for lack of a better term) that a more educated pastor would have, they showed a true heart for genuine ministry.

Perhaps "polish" would be a better term?

I think the pedigree is less important than to be certain of the call and anointing. The caution is to be certain. I thought being in ministry would be awesome. I have a big enough target on my back in lay ministry. Unless God clearly calls me, I don't want a bigger target, thank you very much.

[KOR]

Interesting thread.
If one is called and anointed You would think it wouldn't matter. Of course there are denominational requirements which must be fulfilled.
There are risks with young unseasoned pastors to fall into the trap of pride. there are many pitfalls but they all stem from pride and it is a big temptation, especially when a church begins to grow.
Personally, i would choose an older pastor but one must always have an attentive ear to the Holy Spirit because His ways are not our ways.

[mattd]

now that a few of you have chimed in on the topic, let me throw another question at you, one that i kind of alluded to in my first post. do you disagree with churches (such as mine) that won't even consider a senior pastor without a seminary degree?

[Kitty]

Well, for me personally, there's quite a lot I would disagree with so ... yes.

"I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:11-12

Isn't it odd how if someone were to say that today, most would consider them a raving lunatic?


"Let the message about Christ, in all its richness, fill your lives. Teach and counsel each other with all the wisdom he gives. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts." Colossians 3:16

Where did this idea come from that only one guy in a church is qualified to teach anyway?

By the way -- when Paul was giving his "credentials" he cited his weakness and his thorn in the flesh.

Kitty

[mattd]

By the way -- when Paul was giving his "credentials" he cited his weakness and his thorn in the flesh.

Kitty


Paul is usually the main point whenever i have this discussion with someone. because what happened to cause him to start preaching? he simply saw Jesus. he received his call and went on to become the most well known missionary in the history of christianity.
same point goes for the 12 disciples as well.

[davesg]

There have been a lot of good, thought out responses to this thread, but I am going to throw my 2 cents worth in anyhow. I personally have been ordained through the denominational process of the Church of God (Cleveland Tnn,). While going through the internship program, I met several that already had college degree's. They were not anymore equipped to become a Pastor than I was. Some of them went on to Pastor, others just disappeared. The Pastors that I know, that have been sucessful in a Pastorial Ministry are a mixed lot. Some with a lot of education, others with almost none. I might, add that to me, a successful Pastorial Ministry is where a Pastor stays with a congregation for an extended period of time and really gets involved with the people and community that he serves in. It's not just about numbers and amount of tithe. It is about making a difference by sticking it out, instead of jumping ship. I have known Pastors to say that they feel God has called them to a certain church, and as soon as another offer comes in, God calls them else where. These types are not going to be successful ministers anywhere. Age doesn't seem to make much of a difference either, it is maturity in the Lord that makes a difference. I've know young people that were far more mature in the Lord than some older people. To directly answer you last question though, NO, I do not agree with the concept that a person must be educated in a university to serve in a Pastorial position. But I do think that anyone that desires to serve in that capacity should have a very clear understanding of scripture. They should be able to;

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

One of the weaknesses of non-educated ministers is that they feel called, and may even be, but take the calling to mean they are ready to answer that call. Many step up to the plate and strike out due to unpreparedness. The same mistake can also be made by someone that has gone through a Seminary. On the other side of the coin, many come out of college thinking they have all of the answers. They are also mistaken if they fall into that attitude.

Suggestion, If you are ever looking for a new Pastor, Look at each man, or woman, as an individual. Check their strengths and weaknesses. Do they have a working knowledge of the scriptures, and I might add that they should know their denominational structure and laws as well? How are their people skills? Are they a person of prayer? Do they use the resources that Gods has placed in the congregation, or do they want to do everything theirselves? Are they rulers or servants? Do they have a God given vision for the work that needs done in your Church? Are they what your Church needs, or just what you can afford? What is their level of education?

There are other questions that could be asked, but if you get started in this process, you will figure out who the person applying really is.

I do not want to imply that an education is not important, it is very important. But a degree doesn't mean a person is educated, and a lack of one doesn't mean a person is ignorant.

[Jaybo]

Well, Paul was pretty schooled beforehand.

He would have been quite learned in reason, debate, etc. BUT -it's true, he didn't have any special schooling for JESUS....and WHO DOES?

It reminds me of the Steve Taylor "I wanna be clone" song. lol

Obviously, there's alot a person CAN learn from seminary - but I wouldn't call that alone a prerequisite for being a pastor.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.


Learning topical Greek and Hebrew are not the beginning of wisdom....but not receiving instruction is foolish.

I don't think we have to look around very far to see "Seminary" pastors, or traditional denominations that are blowing up.

It's not by following the wisdom of man - or the politics of an "assembly" that will help us do this thing we call church.

[Jaybo]

I'd gone through so much other stuff
that walking down the aisle was tough
but now I know it's not enough
I want to be a clone

I asked the Lord into my heart
they said that was the way to start
but now you've got to play the part
I want to be a clone

chorus:
Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight
cloneliness is next to Godliness, right?
I'm grateful that they show the way
'cause I could never know the way
to serve him on my own
I want to be a clone

They told me that I'd fall away
unless I followed what they say
who needs the Bible anyway?
I want to be a clone

Their language it was new to me
but Christianese got through to me
now I can speak it fluently
I want to be a clone

(chorus)

Send in the clones
Ah, I kind of wanted to tell my friends and people about it, you know....

What?
You're still a babe
you have to grow
give it twenty years or so
'cause if you want to be one of his
got to act like one of us

(chorus)

So now I see the whole design
my church is an assembly line
the parts are there
I'm feeling fine
I want to be a clone

I've learned enough to stay afloat
but not so much I rock the boat
I'm glad they shoved it down my throat
I want to be a clone

Everybody must get cloned

Steve Taylor.

[Brian]

"One of the weaknesses of non-educated ministers is that they feel called, and may even be, but take the calling to mean they are ready to answer that call. Many step up to the plate and strike out due to unpreparedness. "

"Well, Paul was pretty schooled beforehand. "

He certainly was; a Pharisee's Pharisee. And how long did it take him to truly understand Jesus was the Truth and fulfillment of all the scripture he had so meticulously learned before he began his ministry?

I am an elder in a church needing to select a new Sr Pastor. He has made a miraculous recovery from a brink of death illness and is a walking testimony. But alas he is unable to fully carry out the responsibilities. We know God saved Pastor for a reason, and we all eanestly pray that will soon be revealed. I am going to print out Brother davesq's comments for reference as we move though this process.

Other things we will look for besides credentials is leadership abilities. This will include how well do the candidates communicate? We will ask them to describe their communications styles and give examples. We will ask for examples of how they built trust in their congregation. We wll ask them to describe how they have equiped leaders, built teams, and what the results were. We will ask about conflicts and how they were and were not resolved?

We would appreciate your prayers about this over the next 3 months.

[Crunchyriff]

I have known Pastors to say that they feel God has called them to a certain church, and as soon as another offer comes in, God calls them else where. These types are not going to be successful ministers anywhere.

I might take issue in this statement on a case by case basis, bro.

Sometimes God has short seasons for certain folks; and mechanisms in place to position them to where he wants them. Sometimes God is moving people forth, almost like an unseen "networking"- a ground-laying if you will. As it is written you "judge a tree by the fruit it bears." But by and large, church scampering, whether by pastor or attendee- is usually not very fruitful, so I agree with your basic premise.

[hotraman]

I would add another word: mentorship.
All young pastors need to have someone with experience speak into their lives. Just having knowledge isn't enough & personal experiences can have a bias.
A blend of all three is what I would look for.

[Jaybo]

I read an interesting quote by a farmer today that made me think of this post. It went something like:

"I'd rather have a city slicker helping me with a good attitude, then an experienced farm hand who has a bad one"

To me, the role of pastor is changing, and NEEDS to change from the role we've accepted for the last 60 or so years.

Whilst doctrine is important - interaction with people, willingness for accountability, a servants heart etc. are immensely important.

It's like getting a job in the "real world" - you can't get a management job, without experience....but how do you get experience, if nobody will hire you?

[Brian]

"It's like getting a job in the "real world" - you can't get a management job, without experience....but how do you get experience, if nobody will hire you?"

In our denomination, young Pastors often get their start as interns while in seminary. We also have a sanctioned course of study, given one night per week that satisfies the seminary degree requirement, but it aint easy. Still takes about 4-5 years. Then an associate Pastorship, builds experience and leadership. In fact our denomination places a very high emphasis on equipping young leaders to become shepherds.

[Ravindave_3600]

[quote="Jaybo"]Whilst doctrine is important - interaction with people, willingness for accountability, a servants heart etc. are immensely important.

The best pastors are deep both doctrinally and socially. The one who is just good with people can't teach deep things, and is more prone to errors (if not heresies). The one who understands doctine but not people may never be able to reach hearts.

An old missionary answers this question for me one time in this way:
"Get as much training as you can, so God can use you in any situation He wishes."

Makes sense to me. :)

[Kitty]

I always wonder why the idea of the gifting of the Holy Spirit does not play a more prevalent role in discussions of this type.

[MrsMike]

I always wonder why the idea of the gifting of the Holy Spirit does not play a more prevalent role in discussions of this type. :clap: AMEN!!!!! :cheer: :woot: :clap:

[Brian]

"I always wonder why the idea of the gifting of the Holy Spirit does not play a more prevalent role in discussions of this type."
Thank you for bringing this up. Especially poignant for me right now.

While my bride :love: and I were in Hawaii over Valentines Day for our 25th anniversary the guest speaker at the AOG church we visited chose me as one of a few people he had a word of knowledge for after the service. Admittedly skeptical, I thought to myself "yeah right" :roll: as he said I would be called into leadership for the Lord. I had chosen to step down from leadership at work awhile back because the commute was burning me out and now focus on analysis, project management, and process engineering. I'm a musician and vocalist at church but have only been called upon as a sub to lead Worship twice in 13 yrs ??? .

30 days later I was elected to the local church elder board :huh:. Late last week I learned that the regional leadership would dissolve our local elder board but retained to be on the 5 member Pastoral transition team :yikes: .

Yes, HE'S got my attention. (Thinking back to another thread, think an atheist would buy that???)

The Holy Spirit is all over these things of which we speak. It is He who helps us intrepret the scriptures. He annoints leaders, teachers, counsellors, healers, servants, prophets. We prayerfully search for the manifestations of these giftings, including discernment.

Again, we covet your prayers as we search for a new Sr Pastor over the next few months.

[MrMike]

I always wonder why the idea of the gifting of the Holy Spirit does not play a more prevalent role in discussions of this type.

Unfortunately, many are looking for something more tangible. ??? :roll:

[mattd]

I always wonder why the idea of the gifting of the Holy Spirit does not play a more prevalent role in discussions of this type.


kitty, i guess I never said it in this thread, but what you just mentioned there is part of my conviction of not attending a seminary. shortly after i received my call to ministry i was reading a book that said something along the lines of " there is too much emphasis being placed on attending seminary in America. too much knowledge leads to pastors relying on themselves rather than the spirit."

in short, i meant to imply in my original post that the experienced man would possibly be a little more sensitive to the spirit's leading than someone who has been through 6 years of Bible college. not to say there's anything wrong with doing that. but I think we're a lot more effective by learning as we go, and "leaning not on our own understanding".

[hotraman]

I always wonder why the idea of the gifting of the Holy Spirit does not play a more prevalent role in discussions of this type.

I think churches and people are afraid of what He would ask us to do.
My life has been radically and daily changed by the Spirit's giftings/power/fruit in my life.

Steve

[Kitty]

My life has been radically and daily changed by the Spirit's giftings/power/fruit in my life.

It's a wild ride, ain't it Steve!! :D

[Ravindave_3600]

Actually, Matt's original post said the older guy was going to have a lifetime of experience led by the Holy Spirit, and that's why I didn't address it in my first response. In fact, he may just be old, without having walked with the Spirit, but that was Matt's (rather slanted) presupposition. To bring it up at this end of this discussion as though it had never been mentioned isn't accurate. I'm sure we'll all agree (especially the pastors here) that EVERY pastor needs to be walking with and relying on the Holy Spirit, whether he's been to seminary or not.

That said, Matt, I'd like to encourage you to re-think your educational plans. I work with non-seminary trained pastors all the time. Some of them are just faithfully doing what they can with what the Lord's given them, others are seeing enormous success. Some of them are much better pastors than I am! And I've found they frequently seek advice from the ones with backgrounds in languages, church history, theology, counseling, and church administration (the things you learn in seminary).

One thing I NEVER hear them say is "Oh, I've got plenty of training and education, thank you." They ALL want more. Because of my role in our denomination I've been asked by pastors to bring seminary-level courses to our area (I'll be working on that tomorrow, in fact). And yes, you can be well-educated AND led by the Holy Spirit! But don't take my word for it - ask Billy Graham, John McArthur, or Jack Hayford!

Why wouldn't you want to be better equipped to handle the problems, issues, and questions that come your way? Don't let someone else's bias against seminary cause you to settle for being a butter knife when you can be a swiss army knife.

[Kitty]

Actually Matt's original post said about the non-seminary pastor: "instead has learned everything he knows by working in a ministry position for 40+ years, learning from the guidance of the holy spirit as well as coworkers"


You must have overlooked that part.


Why wouldn't you want to be better equipped to handle the problems, issues, and questions that come your way?

I thought the original question was whether or not seminary actually DOES equip believers to handle problems, issues and questions better than relying solely upon the Holy Spirit and the fellowship of our co-workers in the faith, and whether it's actually seminary that turns one into a butter knife rather than the Swiss Army knife.

The answer to that here on this forum is going to be a matter of pure opinion and nothing more. The answer to that for Matt is going to be a matter of the guidance of the Holy Spirit in his decision.

My personal opinion, Matt, is that I applaud you for following your convictions. Just be sure they're YOUR CONVICTIONS, guided by the Lord, and not the opinions of those with whom you're currently hanging out.

Kitty

[mattd]

kitty, they are most definately not. most people say the same thing that Dave did, about why I'm not going after that education right now. I'm not saying that I won't ever go. I'm just saying that right now I don't feel led to attend a seminary. maybe down the road i'll have the opportunity to attend one. but until then, i'm gonna do what I feel called to do now.

[ptrallan01]

to find other men and train them in the things of the Lord. His intention was that the seminary type training would take place within the body of the local church by elders who would bring up the congregation and impart the knowledge.

The idea of a seminary is a much later add on that has helped and hurt the church. It helped by standardizing training and curriculum across a large geographic area. It hurt by making a degree a necessity instead of a calling.

I have a bachelors in ministry that I received seven years after I began pastoring and 10 years after I began preaching. However, my pastor required certain types of study. The district association provided some, particularly in their annual and semi-annual meetings.

God's call is always paramount in these things. Paul was well educated prior to being called, Peter, John and some of the others were not. They instead were trained directly by Jesus himself.

The training is absolutely necessary whether it comes from a school or the local church. You must be grounded in faith, in biblical studies, in doctrine. You must have some training in administration, human relations, and the rituals that are performed (weddings/funerals/etc). There are proper physical techniques to be used when performing baptisms to avoid injury to yourself and the new christian. There are counselling "secrets/tips" that will help you get to the root of an issue without leaving a trail of blood.

Some of these can be learned in school, some can't. Some are things that no one can teach, i.e. prayer. You learn prayer by praying. Preaching is another thing that can't be taught. You learn to preach by preaching. You can get insights and formats and rules from a school or another preacher but until you preach the sermons/messages and see the effects good and bad its all theoretical no matter where it comes from.

If God called you He will provide a school, mentor, church, group, teacher to help you through. School alone is not enough. Practical experience is good but there are still things we must be taught by people around us.

I have started a monthly class for our ministers to cover these very subjects because most have not and probably will not go to school. Therefore it is my responsibility to train them and prepare them for the work they are called to do in accordance with Ephesians 4:12-16(?).

Another area that is often neglected in the pastoral preparations whether in school or the local church are the legal ramifications of counselling, tax exempt statuses, property management, etc, etc etc ad nauseum. These are the ones that probably won't get you in trouble with God but will create headaches with the Gmen!

Matt, take your time in making a decision. My suggestion is that you do both if possible, learn from a trusted mentor/pastor and take some level of course work from some organization. Preferably in class room situations since you can get to meet other people and develop a set of compatriots to help you discuss things. This becomes really important when you are "THE Pastor".

Help this thread helps.

Peter

[Diana J.]

One of our Sunday school teachers is fond of quoting the
statistic that "Only 10% of American Christians have read the
Bible from cover to cover, and only 20% of pastors have
read it from cover to cover". Not exactly sure what source
she got that from but I imagine it to be a fairly close
estimate, which of course is also quite disturbing. To be an
effective Christian preacher one simply MUST have a
good working knowledge of the Bible. This includes not only
prayerfully reading it but also studying the geography
history and custums of the people of that time. To me,
this is the most important purpose of seminary school.
Yes, people can and do study and learn this stuff on their
own but I for one like to see a diploma that shows the
person felt it was important enough to invest their time
and money to earn. I guess this is one reason I belong
to the denomination that I belong to! No offense intended
to anyone else, just my opinion.

[Kitty]

Here's a perspective from A. W. Tozer about what one man needed in order to be useful to God and 'successful' in ministry:

"I knew a man from India who got hold of a New Testament, was
converted and started to preach, but he had no background at all.
That is, he started from scratch. He did not have a Greek Orthodox or
Roman Catholic or Protestant background. He just started from the
beginning. He didn't know anything about churches. He testified,
"What I did when I had a problem in the church was to go straight to
the New Testament and settle it. I let the New Testament tell me what
I was to do." The result was that God greatly blessed him and his
work in the land of India.

"This is what I would like to see in our church--the New Testament
order of letting Scripture decide matters. When it comes to a
question--any question--what does the Word of God say? All belief
and practices should be tested by the Word; no copying unscriptural
church methods. We should let the Word of God decide."

Rut, Rot or Revival: The Condition of the Church, 140.

[dudabrad]

This issue cuts both ways and there are extremes on both sides.
As a seminary-trained pastor with 15+ years of pastoral experience I've seen great seminary grads and lousy ones. I've seen tremendously effective "life-trained" ministers and extremely dangerous ones. Seminarians can get bogged down in theoretical discussion or confused by theological revision. The "un-schooled" may lack Biblical and theological skills, and get caught up in all kinds of pop-theological fads and the heretical rantings of wacked-out TV preachers they try to emulate.

I am currently contemplating pursuing a doctoral degree in ministry and firmly believe in the ongoing value of higher academic education. I've also learned through real life ministry that degrees alone do not a pastor make.

I long for the day when local churches and Bible colleges/seminaries form a stronger partnership that allows for a strategic combination of academic/theological training and hands-on practical experience. I think both sides are starting to wake up to the need for a more integrated approach, and there are some interesting experiments going on. But we still have a long way to go.

[hotraman]

This issue cuts both ways and there are extremes on both sides.
As a seminary-trained pastor with 15+ years of pastoral experience I've seen great seminary grads and lousy ones. I've seen tremendously effective "life-trained" ministers and extremely dangerous ones. Seminarians can get bogged down in theoretical discussion or confused by theological revision. The "un-schooled" may lack Biblical and theological skills, and get caught up in all kinds of pop-theological fads and the heretical rantings of wacked-out TV preachers they try to emulate.

I am currently contemplating pursuing a doctoral degree in ministry and firmly believe in the ongoing value of higher academic education. I've also learned through real life ministry that degrees alone do not a pastor make.

I long for the day when local churches and Bible colleges/seminaries form a stronger partnership that allows for a strategic combination of academic/theological training and hands-on practical experience. I think both sides are starting to wake up to the need for a more integrated approach, and there are some interesting experiments going on. But we still have a long way to go.


This is well said!

Make Jesus the main thing in all we do.

[Old Believer]

I don't think a college degree is a requirement for pastoral leadership. Our pastor has bible college under his belt and years of youth ministry. An advanced degree would not have made him a more spirit led pastor/teacher. In seven years I have watched him grown into a sound bible teacher and a true leader.

[Ravindave_3600]

Two opposing opinions, just in to the home office in Boise:

At a ministers conference, the subject of higher education came up. One brother found considerable satisfaction in boasting that he hadn't been ruined by one of those "preacher factory cemetaries", as he called seminary. "I thank God for my ignorance!" He exclaimed.
An elderly bishop responded, "And brother, you have much to be thankful for!"
rofl

At a seminary graduation a young boy asked his father what kind of hats those were on the professors. "They're called mortar boards," said Dad.
"What are they for?"
"Well, they're very versatile tools. A bricklayer uses his mortarboard to keep his cement on top. A professor uses his mortarboard to keep his cement underneath!"
rofl rofl

[Crunchyriff]

Here's a perspective from A. W. Tozer about what one man needed in order to be useful to God and 'successful' in ministry:

"I knew a man from India who got hold of a New Testament, was
converted and started to preach, but he had no background at all.
That is, he started from scratch. He did not have a Greek Orthodox or
Roman Catholic or Protestant background. He just started from the
beginning. He didn't know anything about churches. He testified,
"What I did when I had a problem in the church was to go straight to
the New Testament and settle it. I let the New Testament tell me what
I was to do." The result was that God greatly blessed him and his
work in the land of India.

"This is what I would like to see in our church--the New Testament
order of letting Scripture decide matters. When it comes to a
question--any question--what does the Word of God say? All belief
and practices should be tested by the Word; no copying unscriptural
church methods. We should let the Word of God decide."

Rut, Rot or Revival: The Condition of the Church, 140.

Tozer was one of the greatest sage's of the 20h century. He's one of my favorite writers and teachers. Dare I say he was one of God's messengers for his generation, and beyond.

In a nutshell, there are two types of leaders:

The ones God raise up.

the ones MAN raise up.

I'll take God's leaders, and I don't care what avenue He uses to get them here.

I'd like to say one other thing. "Dangerous leaders" I do NOT necessarily have a problem with. We serve a 'dangerous' God. Nothing could be further from the truth when it is glibly said: " the safest place is in the hands of God".

It is NOT the truth. Not on THIS earth. Both the Old and New Testaments are strewn with examples that repudiate this claim.

We don't get our "get out of hell free card", and have a nice, smooth, peaceful, trouble-free life. Instead of taking us around a storm for example, Christ will often navigate us right through its core.

Abraham's trip was dangerous.
Moses' life was dangerous.
Joseph's life was dangerous

John the Baptist's short life was dangerous

and on and on AND on- right through the examples of Paul's life, and John's eventual exile to Patmos.

And, each and every one of their paths were fashioned by the Hand of God. I don't mind 'unconventional messengers'. (I'm not talking about heretics or false prophets) They are oftentimes the only ones who are REALLY speaking the truth, and have the guts to do it, let alone the courage to obey God; and not follow stupid, lifeless, false, 'doctrines of men', that too many are spewing forth from pulpits today.

[Micter]

Dicipleship is the biblical roadmap to raising up leaders not schooling.

[Kitty]

"Dicipleship is the biblical roadmap to raising up leaders not schooling."

Micter, I don't often see you post something really really smart... :poke: but that one is definitely a keeper.

However, I also agree with Crunchy... whatever path God has for preparing and raising up an individual as a leader in His church is fine with me.

Kitty

[Micter]

"Dicipleship is the biblical roadmap to raising up leaders not schooling."

Micter, I don't often see you post something really really smart... :poke: but that one is definitely a keeper.

However, I also agree with Crunchy... whatever path God has for preparing and raising up an individual as a leader in His church is fine with me.

Kitty

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. :yikes:

[Crunchyriff]

Oh yes you are.. :)

[Jaybo]

I'd like to say one other thing. "Dangerous leaders" I do NOT necessarily have a problem with. We serve a 'dangerous' God. Nothing could be further from the truth when it is glibly said: " the safest place is in the hands of God".

It is NOT the truth. Not on THIS earth. Both the Old and New Testaments are strewn with examples that repudiate this claim.

Too true.


It would be nice to see some apprenticeship progams in churches. Where people from the church were discipled, and taught.

I think it would be fun to disciple young musicians.

(Of course - I think it would be great to see the head "pastors" setting up chairs, and mowing the lawn...but I'm not holding my breath for that one)

[Crunchyriff]

....
(Of course - I think it would be great to see the head "pastors" setting up chairs, and mowing the lawn...but I'm not holding my breath for that one)

Jaybo, my bro, there are countless 'senior pastors' that did not start out at the top... if you know what I mean.
I have no problem with pastors & teachers having the time to commit to their calling. Satan is all too effective at burdening leaders with too much stuff and too many fires to put out in hopes he brings them down & burns them out; or at least gets them to lose focus. I know this, and have seen this, firsthand.

[Jaybo]

True - the "Super Pastor" burnout can happen.

Friend to every man in the church.

Attending every function, never late, sick, or not smiling....

It's SUPER PASTOR!!!! :cheer:

[Ravindave_3600]

(Of course - I think it would be great to see the head "pastors" setting up chairs, and mowing the lawn...but I'm not holding my breath for that one)

Come by my church.

[Jaybo]

(Of course - I think it would be great to see the head "pastors" setting up chairs, and mowing the lawn...but I'm not holding my breath for that one)

Come by my church.

lol

I actually thought of you when I posted that.

I have been in a couple where the pastors gave the impression that doing that sort of work was beneath them, because they were the anointed man of god.