How Does One Become a Good Apologist for Christ?

[Mark From Hawaii]

I have a viddy up on YouTube of our Worship Team performing "My Savior Lives" for this past Easter service. Someone called "IlluminateYourMind" posted a comment about how Easter is based on a pagan holiday, and that Jesus and His crucifixion and ressurection are myths based on a sun god myth. So I had to reply and our "discussion" of replies became somewhat of a dialectical debate about the Bible and Jesus. This person says that using the Bible to prove Bible scripture is "circular logic". I basically ended up saying that we (believers) come to know Jesus through faith and that at the time of conversion we are called upon by the Holy Spirit. He asked "how did he call you?" I'm sure when I get home there'll be more commentary. It is interesting because I feel I'm being led by the Holy Spirit to go through this exercise in a calm and logical manner - to not counter harshness with harshness. What do you think? Also, what are some Bible passages to study when confronted by an atheist who questions faith?

[Jaybo]

There's many good websites out there that can help.

I've debated with more than a few Atheists, Wiccans, etc. - and learned a few things:

1) Love wins. Everybody responds to that - and can see the evidence of love, more than any historical evidence one could give!

2) The 'proof' and logics they think are airtight - usually are not.

3) "We" don't have any "airtight" proofs to convince a person with - but A LOT more than "they" think.

4) "They" often use flawed KJV translations to prove "their" points - but when you use the gospel, it's circular.

Here's a few good websites:

http://www.carm.org/

http://www.ex-atheist.com/ - this one's pretty full on.

http://www.rzim.org/ - He's a great apologist.


These should get you started. CARM is really a great resource.

I don't believe that Apologetics can really convince people - BUT the bible does say to be ready to give an answer!

We'll pray for you, that the Holy Spirit would give you the words to speak.

[Brian]

...I feel I'm being led by the Holy Spirit to go through this exercise in a calm and logical manner - to not counter harshness with harshness. What do you think? Also, what are some Bible passages to study when confronted by an atheist who questions faith?Coincidence this was my devotion this morning? 1 Corinthians 1:18
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

I'm not much help as an apologist today am I.

but 2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[Mark From Hawaii]

Thank you brothers! As suspected he's baaaaaack... His question to me now is where's my proof that Jesus came into Jerusalem during Passover and no one was named Jesus back then. Imma gonna check out those websites Jaybo. God Bless.

[Jaybo]

What is the proof they are seeking about Jesus in Jerusalem during passover?

It's not like they made you write your name in a guest book at the gate. lol


What's interesting to ME - is that somebody would come, and open a discussion on a video like that. Hopefully the Holy Spirit is working on them!

[Brian]

...
1) Love wins. Everybody responds to that - and can see the evidence of love, more than any historical evidence one could give!
2) The 'proof' and logics they think are airtight - usually are not.
3) "We" don't have any "airtight" proofs to convince a person with - but A LOT more than "they" think.
4) "They" often use flawed KJV translations to prove "their" points - but when you use the gospel, it's circular.
...We'll pray for you, that the Holy Spirit would give you the words to speak.This thread was heavy on my heart last night. Jaybo's 1st bullet point is sooooo basic and so true but it can often be overlooked. And Jaybo's observations in bullets 2-4 are right on. (I love you Brother)

I heard a debate on a local Christian talk radio station just before Easter with 4 well known local area Pastors of large congregations and the head legal counsel for a national athiest organization, and his wife, who had chosen that weekend to have a convention in town. Even in my faith in Christ-biased view, the athiests' debating style shredded the local clergy who gradually began to display various degrees of frustration that in one case became downright rudeness. Yet the atheists were calm, methodical, and the man showed the utmost in love and respect not only to his wife during the interview, but (worldly) grace to the clergy. In addition to all of the questions athieists raise, he had an answer to everything the clergy offered up.

Ex... the Bible is a legend and has several (well known I might add) apparent contradictions that even the classic commentators do not draw identical conclusions on; how could an all-knowing God inspire men to write that?? The passage in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews xviii 3.3 is a forgery.

And with the utmost in (worldly) grace, carefully guided the discussion of his own son and daughter-in-law becoming Born Again believers to conclusion. He said he was not closed minded but just had not heard any indisputable evidence that would change his view. Yet I sensed the Holy Spirit is working on him, but whether he is chosen is up to the Almighty.

It's so hard to put into words how Christ works in us... Why did Cassie Bernall not deny Jesus at Columbine (who the atheists also rationalize and discredit)? Why have an untold number of Saints gone to their deaths for their faith under persecution, from Acts to now? and will in the future? As one who once hated that Christian "nazis" wanted to tell me how I had to live my life; how many sinful things of the world have I been able to put off, and not looked back, through Him working in my heart? And how many times has He convicted me of sin in my journey with Him since? Why doesn't he just toast me? It makes no sense. Because He loves me, the unlovable, beyond my understanding. How can I "prove" that? How many times have doors suddenly opened or closed to me as I am guided in God's will? How many times have I realized the Holy Spirit has spoken to me with foreknowledge, in that still small voice, in both happy and tragic circumstances? Why was 1Cor 1 my devotion the day I read Mark's post? Because He's convicting me and building me up every day. How can I verbalize that in a manner that provides scientific and indisputable "proof" of the Mystery of God? Being an "analyzing" personality certainly doesn't help because I tend to consider "options", and thus don't think fast on my feet. Again I am brought back to 1Cor 1 that I quoted above... :(

In the end, I am brought back to Jaybo's 1st bullet and understand that Prayer, the Holy Spirit, and love are key.
Colossians 4:2 Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; 3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak. 5 Walk in wisdom toward those who are outside, redeeming the time. 6 Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one. :pray:

[Diana J.]

On some days, I think deep down everybody is really
an agnostic, with some of us choosing one path and
others choosing another. Then there are other days
when I think the most clever thing God ever did was
create a world where its actually possible NOT to believe
in him. (Kinda scary that I help lead worship huh?!)

[Teleguy]

On some days, I think deep down everybody is really
an agnostic...)

I'm with ya!
Wed. is my day to wake up and go, "God who?" "I don't GET it!"


But then I force my flesh to praise God, turn the day over to my Saviour, and invite the Holy Spirit in to "...help my unbelief!"

We have NO proof that the world will hear. Only evidence enough for our Faith, in our own path, that the Lord is leading us on.
We are like the Nation of Isreal during its 40 years in the desert. Someday, we will enter the Promised Land.

Until then, ONLY OUR TESTIMONY is irrefutable. We are witnesses to the transformation of (at least) ONE life: ours!
We may know of others, but we cannot speak effectively of their experience.
We cannot refute the Spanish Inquisition, or any other criticism.

We have the Word of our Lord, who told us how to live in order to establish a relationship of our own with His Holy Spirit.
Lots of people don't make it that far. We are not to judge.

Only OUR testimony is irrefutable.
If they can't respect us enough to be telling the Truth as we apprehend it, then we have either blown our credibility, or they were never going to grant us the "benefit of the doubt" anyway.
We can only respect them. We can't make them respect us.
Only God can draw them. That's His job.

Our's is merely to witness what has happened to US, in all things, and HELP people, which may gain us audience.

[Crunchyriff]

I think one of the most compelling arguments FOR the validity and reality of Christ (and his devout followers), was written many years ago by the late Dr. Eugene Scott, titled "The Resurrection".

Say what one might about the eccentric Dr. Scott- but if ANYTHING outside of the Holy Scriptures themselves can adequately support the argument FOR Christ, this surely can. IMHO.

[Teleguy]

Oh certainly, Crunchy.

And there is much good polemic from many writers, A.W. Tozer, and C.S. Lewis included.

But in the case of our regular life and meetings, or in this case Mark's posting and question, I doubt the target audience is in the mood to read anything that supports OUR point of view. Likely not sincere seekers, if you catch my drift.

So in this day and age I think the most effective way is our own testimony, and simply stated at that.
Later on, God may indeed introduce these writers to the person.

It was a LONG time after a friend and I were mocking Dial-A-Prayer, before we were saved, and reading A.W. Tozer, Smith Wigglesworth, C.S. Lewis, et al. ;)

[Jaybo]

Yes! This is great stuff.

I'm being really, um, I don't know the word - but "led", "challenged", "instructed" lately, on things like reading the bible, prayer, worship...

Not out of the legalistic sense - but in the sense that when we need encouragement or an answer; these are the things that the Holy Spirit brings to our minds.

Great point Diana - I think you're right. The common atheist view is that we're all brainwashed, or mindless sheep. But many of us are, or were searching earnestly - and many of us are still on the path. Though it is the narrow one.

how many sinful things of the world have I been able to put off, and not looked back, through Him working in my heart? And how many times has He convicted me of sin in my journey with Him since? Why doesn't he just toast me? It makes no sense. Because He loves me, the unlovable, beyond my understanding. How can I "prove" that? How many times have doors suddenly opened or closed to me as I am guided in God's will? How many times have I realized the Holy Spirit has spoken to me with foreknowledge, in that still small voice, in both happy and tragic circumstances? Why was 1Cor 1 my devotion the day I read Mark's post? Because He's convicting me and building me up every day. How can I verbalize that in a manner that provides scientific and indisputable "proof" of the Mystery of God?

-That is really powerful.

I think maybe there's a point where nothing is "provable".

I said in another discussion, that if a guy was missing a leg - and Jesus showed up in his bedroom, and regrew his leg for him; science and philosophers would say it spontaniously grew, and he had an episode, etc.

It would be true that it WAS miraculous, but true that it was scientifically unmiraculous as well.

[Crunchyriff]

DianaJ your point is well-taken, and ultra-valid.

God has fashioned quite an array to walk through on a daily basis. How many times did Abraham ask himself "what on earth am I doing?" after breaking camp to set out to a "land I will show you, and give you and your descendants"..??

How many times has God compelled us to go in a certain direction, given us myriad confirmations, and then we get to the place where God isn't speaking and you say "what on earth am I doing?"

I've lived that, and living it now, and probably will again. Such is the system God set in place. I have not a clue as to why, though we can speculate...and ther are pretty strong hints in His Word" so no flesh can glory.." is one of them.

As far as the battle of wits with unbelievers, those folks for the most part are going through an exercise of ridicule, nothing more; ridiculing that which we believe, and that which we KNOW and WHO we know.

As long as they are blind by the stubborn, unbelieving will in their hearts, they will never, ever see. God will honor their wishes...until that great and dreadful day.

[stephen]

One simple point you can illuminate for your atheist computer acquaintance: It is a fact of history (as can be validate by Josephus, and Pilatus [or is it Pileo?] I cant recall): Jesus of Nazareth, as well as all of the disciples, did in fact live in Roman controlled Jerusalem. Jesus' trial, and death are undebated by histories scribes: He did as a fact live, and died by execution. A Roman execution. The Talmud also has entries that corroborate the life and death of Jesus (though they take license to denigrate Him as a lunatic, a con-man, or radical terrorist).

The disciples also: all except for one, died a martyr's death, and this is irrefutable historical fact. Add upon that, these disciples of Jesus, were put to death, many years after Jesus' recorded death, and they were reported (in the historians own account) to be preaching and proselytizing in the name of Jesus, and they refused to renounce him.

Now ask your atheistic friend to examine this: 11 men (not counting Paul, but I'll get to him in a moment), who by their own admission, acted cowardly during Jesus' trial, and crucifixion, suddenly go out, and begin to preach about Jesus, and they say He is alive. So much so, that announcing that, they condemn themselves to horrible martyrs deaths. Now think about that: These admitted cowards, are now willing to accept a martyrs death, for one man that was put to death like a criminal, and is buried? No. They are willing to walk boldly to their executions, because the One they preach about is not dead and buried, but He was in fact resurrected: They witnessed this first hand, and they know He is alive forever more! These men would not die a martyrs death for a lie. They believed with everything within them, that what they preached was absolute fact, and backed it up with their lives.

Then there is Paul, who used to be Saul. He persecuted the church, sending many to prison, and to their deaths. He was a Pharisee's Pharisee (meaning he was a benchmark for all the other Pharisee's to try to attain too). Then he suddenly flip-flops, and becomes the most prolific writer, preacher and evangelist for the very nut-jobs that he hunted down. This even cost him his life, again, being martyred as the others Why the change? Something immense in his life happened. This change coincides with the Road to Damascus experience that happened to Paul: He came into personal contact with the One True and Living God, and that is what changed him completely.

Of course he would probably say, oh their are lots of stories out there where the heroes of the stories do great and mighty things in their gods name. Nothing out of the ordinary. Problem with that is, most are stories told by others about them, normally centuries after their deaths, and their is not sufficient historical corroborating evidence to support the claims. Not so with the accounts of the disciples. These accounts have more corroborating evidence than the vast majority of other documents in history.

So in a nut shell, the disciples and their actions following the death of jesus, corroborate the statement: and three days later, Jesus rose from the dead, and He lives forevermore.

[davesg]

John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.

It isn't easy, to answer a question to someone, that has decided you are wrong before they ask the question. But the Word promises that the Spirit of truth will guide us. We must learn to follow the leading of the Spirit. Preparation is necessary pray, study, listen and follow. One source that I have in my library is a book by Josh McDowell, "Evidance that Demands a Verdict". In it Josh has a lot of useful informatin on apoligetics. I would recommend that youo add this book to your library for future discussions. One more point that I would like to share is that in Isaiah 55:11, it says;
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.


The New King James Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1998, c1982.
Bu useing God's Word in our discussions with non believers, God's will, will be accomplished. It may take time, but the seed you are planting in this person's life, will bear fruit. The fruit may be salvation, or judgement. Either way, you are doing the will of the Father in sharing, with love, the message of the cross. I am praying for you in this endevour.

[Diana J.]

I just end up with a headache when I try to ponder the
Mysterys of God. Really I think there are only
two very basic questions we need ask (ourselves or
anyone else)---Is there a God? and Does He
love us? If I really believe there is a God who put the
stars in the sky and the fish in the sea, and that He
does indeed love humankind, its not that hard to believe
in Jesus. Digging up archaeological ruins to prove
certain factual happenings, or suggesting Jesus walked
on ice, not water, becomes a moot point. So I think that
when trying to lead a person to Jesus one best starts
with trying to lead that person simply to God, which
I guess is all Jesus was trying to do anyways.

[Crunchyriff]

Diana- you are correct in that last line 100%- "show us the Father!" was the plea of the apostles, and we know what Jesus said in response... but we can't lose sight of the cross & His resurrection.

Many religions purport a passage (or a multitude thereof) to God; only one qualifies.

Which I know you are aware of... :D

[Mark From Hawaii]

Yeehaw - this has spawned some interest. Thanks for all the feedback. Since I've last replied to this gentleman - I mentioned the Jewish historian Josuphus and how the 4 gospels were written by 4 different people who were either eye witnesses or who were under the direction of eye witnesses - he hasn't replied as of last night when I checked. ;) I talked to my adult Bible study teacher yesterday about it and she confirmed that, yes, 2 Timothy 2:24 -26 does mention that it is our role sometimes as Christians to gently but firmly stand up for Jesus.

[Mark From Hawaii]

Well this guy is persistent. Please pray that God continues to equip me with the wisdom I require and that I should have the patience to gently affirm my faith to this person. May the Lord soften his heart so that he may see that Jesus is the way to his salvation. May the Holy Spirit convict me to witness in such a way that it glorifies God and not me.

Here's the dialogue so far:

IlluminateYourMind (4 days ago)
What nonsense. Easter was originally a pagan holiday, not Christian. You people are believing in a myth.

Jesus was a myth like the hundreds of other virgin born, crucified, Son (Sun) of God, healers and 'savior' type god myths.

See the video called 'Myth of Religion; The Solar Messiahs God's Sun Christ Horus'. Although brief, its clear, concise, and very accurate historically regarding the Christian origins. It details how the Jesus myth was based on the Egyptian god Horus.

MarkFromHawaii (4 days ago)
My brother, it amazes me that you've "favorited" this as well as other Praise and Worship videos with your same comment posted. Perhaps in your heart you long for the love and grace that only Christ Jesus can offer. It's OK man, let it go. As for the "myth" of which you speak, it is a fact that Jesus came into Jerusalem just prior to the Jewish Passover feast and was crucified shortly thereafter.

MarkFromHawaii (4 days ago)
As for returning after rising on the 3rd day, this was witnessed by Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and His chosen Apostles. Saul, one of the greatest persecutors of Christians witnessed the power, redemption, and grace of Jesus and became His greatest apologists. What about you brother? Are you ready to take Jesus into your heart?

IlluminateYourMind (4 days ago)
Sure, just give me his telephone number and I'll call him right over. I'll feed him bacon and tequila.

He's a myth dude...learn your history from something besides a fairy tale book.

MarkFromHawaii (3 days ago)
He might go for the bacon but not the tequila - hey, He basically told Peter in Acts to eat whatever he was hungry for. Funny you should mention history. I suggest Werner Keller's excellent read: "The Bible As History". Check it out.

IlluminateYourMind (3 days ago)
Why would I want to read a bunch of circular logic?

You do realize you can't 'prove' the bible WITH the bible right?

Why do you believe in this Jesus nonsense?

MarkFromHawaii (3 days ago)
Yeah I saw the unbelievers' posts in philos' video. Let's just say that we're at an impasse. Why do I believe? Because He called on me and raised me up. This belief is an act of faith - sorry, I can't express it in any other way. Scoff if you like.

IlluminateYourMind (3 days ago)
Really, and how did he 'call you'?

MarkFromHawaii (3 days ago)
Sitting in church one day during the Lord's Supper - still a skeptic - I came to the realization that yes, I am a sinner and that He died for me. Very simple. But then, I'm a simple guy. It's getting late for me here so I'll say good night. Peace.

IlluminateYourMind (3 days ago)
Wow. Not a very miraculous calling. Oh well, I thought I had been called to...was even going into seminary at one time. Then I realized I had just made up the 'calling' in my own mind.

God is Consciousness.

IlluminateYourMind (4 days ago)
Really?...prove it.

IlluminateYourMind (3 days ago)
Really Mark...and where is this 'proof' of Jesus coming into Jerusalem prior to the passover?

Do you know how many people were named Jesus in that time? NONE....the letter 'J didn't even exist then....so why do you insist on calling him jesus. Kinda blasphemous to call your 'savior' by a false name. LOL

MarkFromHawaii (3 days ago)
Ah you're back! You know I'm just a small fish - not very good at this apologetics stuff. You'd have a much better dialectical discussion with someone like brother philos71. So anyway, I'll TRY to answer your questions as best I can.

MarkFromHawaii (3 days ago)
"Jesus" is the English translation of the Greek Iesous which is translated from the Hebrew Yehoshua - meaning "Jehova is savior". I'm paraphrasing here from Wikipedia so maybe there's some inaccuracies here.

Have you ever heard of Flavius Josephus? He was a Jewish priest captured by the Romans during the Jewish revolt in 66 AD. He was somewhat of a historian and wrote about Jesus as a historical figure.

MarkFromHawaii (3 days ago)
Secondly, the four gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written by four different people at different times who penned the gospels as either eye witnesses or under the direction of eye witnesses.

Now a question for you, brother: Why did you leave the seminary?
IlluminateYourMind (13 hours ago)
Because I realized the 'calling' was my imagination....not some deity 'calling' me to the seminary school.

God is Consciousness.....nothing more.

Jesus was based on a Sun God myth...the same as hundreds of others even before his time.

P.s. If you now know that the name Jesus was never used in his time, why do you insist on calling him a fake name? LOL

IlluminateYourMind (13 hours ago)
You do realize that Josephus Flavius was actually Calpernius Piso? Josephus was his ghost writer name.

The Piso family wrote the stories of Jesus.

blackjacket1979 (3 days ago)
Hi Illuminatus wannabe! remember me? Woohoo!;)

MatthewHudghton (3 days ago)
three quick examples i found of Jesus saying this:
Matthew 20:28
John 3:13-16
John 12:24

MarkFromHawaii (34 minutes ago)
If God is consciousness and nothing more, then explain to me how our universe was created out of a singularity? Shouldn't the universe tend to decay toward a state of chaos rather than order? Taking this argument several iterations further how is it possible that we are sentient beings, with free will I might add, if the process of entropy should dictate that we should have never advanced to our present state?

MarkFromHawaii (10 minutes ago)
Consciousness is huge - it implies that we have awareness of our unique identity. And free will. I would suggest to you that only an omnipotent God can create this universe in all its complexity.

MarkFromHawaii (2 minutes ago)
The Jesus-Sun God myth is nothing new - it was first proposed by historian Bruno Bauer in the 19th century. Where it fails is that it is based on the premise of Jesus as a mythological figure who was a composite of personalities.

MarkFromHawaii (1 minute ago)
Biblical scholars as well as most classical historians agree that Jesus was a real person -- God in flesh -- who walked the earth based not only on the 4 gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Pauline epistles but also upon the writings of Josephus (already discussed), Tacitus, and Suetonius.

MarkFromHawaii (51 seconds ago)
Lastly, the Apostle Paul was born a Jew and became a Roman citizen. He witnessed to the gentiles and preached that we can still love God and yet embrace other cultures. So why the hang-up on the Hellenic "Iesous" over the Hebrew "Jehovah"? It doesn't bother me one bit, lol!

[Diana J.]

Mark-From-Hawaii, you are doing an outstanding job of
dialoge with your new friend. It is very interesting that
he was a former seminary student, ie former believer.
I think he is responding to you not only because of your
educated and informed answers but also because, as
Jaybo suggested, love always wins. He can feel your
tenderheartedness towards him.
I am grateful to have found this website. It gives me
great hope for the church at large.

[bobbymc]

I'm not very good at putting my thoughts into words, so please forgive me if/when I ramble. But it seems to me that the very fact that he's going to so much effort to attack you and your beliefs makes me think he's unsure of his own. Sort of like bullies who pick on kids because of their own insecurity.

I would never be able to hold an intelligent debate such as you're doing. I agree with Diana J. He's responding to your educated answers, and your tender heartedness. He was probably expecting you to respond with verbal attacks like his.

This really seems like a battle between God and Satan, being fought on the internet. Keep on, Mark. You're doing a great job. God is watching and guiding you.

[Ravindave_3600]

You're doing great Mark! Good information offered with gentle persistance is the right track. Just make sure what you offer him is solid so he doesn't have an angle of attack.