my changing thoughts on worship

[Kitty]

You know how something seems so OBVIOUS once you finally realize it?

My thoughts on worship have come through quite a change in recent weeks. I have come to realize that all these debates over musical style, what instruments we use, what songs we sing, how long the song service lasts, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum, are all MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY.

Us worship leaders constantly discuss how to lead people "deeper into worship" when it has nothing to do with us or the music at all. We are overwhelmed with new worship music, worship leading seminars, schools of worship, new worship graphics, worship projection programs, worship "tools," blah blah blah. And we have to have an electric guitarist, or vocalists, or drummer, or who can pull off the song exactly the way everyone hears it on the radio.

You know what? NONE of that stuff is necessary! I was at a meeting of about 20 people a few weeks ago where a guy got up to lead worship with an OK voice, an out-of-tune 12-string, photocopied song sheets and old worship music. And WHAM! We were all immediately deep into a place of worship. That got me to wondering what the difference is, because I just came from a church where it kind of appeared as if a lot of the people really didn't know what to "do" during worship, even though it has been "modeled" over and over. And yet, I've led in other situations where the wave of worship just seemed to take off almost without me!

I think it was because almost everyone in that room has come into a deeper understanding of trusting God through hardships, being in ministry, prayer, etc. They know Jesus. I mean they KNOW Him.

We do not need more gear, more graphics, more seminars, more songs, more musicians on the team, more [i]whatever it is they're trying to sell us in Worship Leader Magazine... We do not need more revelation of how to worship. What we need is more revelation of Jesus Christ. We lead people deeper into worship by teaching them how to have a relationship with the One whom they are worshipping.

For example, I just finished taking a younger friend through a book study—just the two of us. We both really enjoyed it, and she learned some extremely important foundational things about her status before God, even though she has been in church all her life and had never been taught those things. We never once talked about worship, but I guarantee you her worship has deepened because of the truths she's realized and can now apply, which in turn has deepened her TRUST of Christ.

This is what leads to worship. It ain't the music. It ain't the worship leader. It ain't the PowerPoint. It's more revelation of Jesus Christ in our lives.

And I have come to believe this applies across the board, no matter what style of church you're in or how much freedom is allowed.

Seems blindingly obvious to me now that I see it.

Kitty

P.S. I don't discount the evangelistic power of worship, but I would contend that it's a case of worshippers who really know Christ and who are pouring out their hearts and trust through the music.

[Teleguy]

...more revelation of Jesus Christ. We lead people deeper into worship by teaching them how to have a relationship with the One whom they are worshipping...

Yes I agree.
Isn't that what a church is all about, to strengthen people's relationship to Jesus Christ?

We have become codependent, trying to do the Holy Spirit's job.

It is not our job to change people's character, or tell them how to live. We're supposed to be witnesses to what has happened to us when we surrender our will to the Holy Spirit, and abide in Christ on a DAILY basis.

[Pearly Gator]

Amen, sister! This is 100% correct. Any worship leader, musician or singer's job is to publicly adore Christ. Cleansed from sin by the shed blood of Christ and in humble adoration. That is Spirit and truth.

One thing that came to mind in reading your post is, "I see material for a book" and I think you should write one. Please pray about this. All worship leaders could use it.

Gary

[Barry]

You know what? NONE of that stuff is necessary! I
I think it was because almost everyone in that room has come into a deeper understanding of trusting God through hardships, being in ministry, prayer, etc. They know Jesus. I mean they KNOW Him...

...We do not need more gear, more graphics, more seminars, more songs, more musicians...

Very good points, Kitty. I've often thought that this is why the AofG I was active in years ago, although it did (I don't know about now) generally have a pretty dynamic presence of music in worship, doesn't officially list "music" as a "ministry". Music is just part of Worship. Except for the choir and an occasional standard P&P tune, there was never really a sense of urgency to learn new songs. There were several times the pastor simply selected standard old songs out of the hymnal. It was all very simply done, but wow did the Spirit move sometimes! Same thing, but on a much smaller scale, in other churches I attended.

[Crunchyriff]

Bravo, Kitty!

Personally, I find little "evangelistic" point or value in worship itself. Does God thru His Holy Spirit touch people thru worship? Certainly. He even changes the dead into living at times during worship. Yet it is difficult for most of the unsaved to grasp what is going on in 'worship'. They are dead to the point, as well as dead to the spirit. The primary "evangelistic tool" as you know, is preaching the Gospel. Nothing more, or less.

Worship is for those who have already chosen Jesus' invitation "whosoever will..." and are caught up in self-abasement, and are in total awe, wonder & thankfulness- giving thanks & adoration to the Father, the King of Kings, and His glorious Spirit.

I've said it before, and I think it bears repeating: a wonderful primer to get our 'Spiritual Heads' on straight, is to read A.W. Tozer's "The Knowledge Of The Holy". It is my estimation that we the congregation, have become too self-focused even in worship ("we are this, we are that", and so forth), and when we DO focus on God, it's about His Love.

The most important attribute of God, far above all His other wonderful characteristics, is His Holiness. We have lost sight of that, and the church today is much the worse for it. I'm not talking about adopting the "holier-than-thou" attitudes of the Pharisees.

It is the recognition of His Holiness that elevates YHWH far above any other god- not to mention his sole Authenticity as Creator...and what is sorely lacking in much of our worship today. It is when we forget about His Holiness, that we start making God in OUR image & OUR likeness.
We start compromising our faith.

We start worshipping false gods & idols.

We allow our daughters to dress like Brittany or Madonna-and, get this: both in church (!!) and without. Neither should be allowed.

We encourage, or at least turn a blind eye to, our sons, trying to become "men" in the most worldly fashion imaginable.

We allow 'private sins' to take their dirty little place in our lives and they gain a foothold- ABOVE the Lordship of Jesus in our lives.

It is when Lot's wife dared to look back.

It is when we abdicate our role in shaping our children's spiritual growth by weakly saying " I'm not impressing upon them my own beliefs..I'll let them find their own way."

It is when we play church on Sunday, and live like hell the other six days...and glibly declare "oh, it's okay, we have the grace of God..."

It is when we ask for God's 'stamp of approval' upon our human plans, instead of asking Him what HIS plans are, and falling in line with them.

Holiness is what this generation LACKS- simply because we have intentionally shunned it. Holiness makes our flesh uncomfortable. We lack for no worship tools, songs, or talented people to serve on worship teams.

What we desperately need is to return to the foundation & observance of WHO God, first and foremost, IS:

"Holy! Holy! Holy!"

[Lazerjeebs]

Hey Kitty,

I'd have to agree with you completely.

I suppose it's kind of difficult to NOT get caught into the 'latest and greatest whiz-bang modern' kind of worship. It all can seem so exciting. And we want our fellow worshipers in the congregation to be excited too!

It's easy to forget that the true excitement and energy of our worship, is not necessarily found in the heart of the electric amps or at the beat of the bass drum and snare.

But it is the worship of our hearts that is most important. Funny thing about that is, it really can be done without a 5 piece band (or 10 piece band).

Thanks for your changing thoughts. Kind of helped me to rethink some things.

Sal

[jony]

We do not need more revelation of how to worship. What we need is more revelation of Jesus Christ. We lead people deeper into worship by teaching them how to have a relationship with the One whom they are worshipping.




YES AMEN!!

By over doing all the other things u described in your post, its as if we are doing it on our own strength..

And not dwelling in God.



There is always a place for the things you mentioned but it should never take the place over "Knowing God'

[kewlpack]

I would just add that I much prefer the simplest sort of praise & worship when we gather as a congregation. No aplomb. No bands. No PA. No frenetic practicing. Just simplistic, undistracted praise from sincere hearts.

Maybe an acoustic or piano accompaniment to help us stay on track (a cappella is even super)...

I really don't think God is playing "Simon Cowell" to our love-driven performances on Sundays (or any other day) when we sing to Him. It's quality, humility, and sincerity from the inner man that the Lord values.

It is fun to be in a P&W band, and to feel like I'm doing something that matters. But it incurs expenses; distracts from family time; consumes lots of spare time (where you might study with others, or just find quiet time with Jesus); and can hinder your own ability to find "that" place of worship during services because you are overly concerned with the music you play (or if you are like me - any mistakes!).

Men of old (in the Scripture) praised/worshipped the Lord in a wide variety of ways... sometimes just building a mound of stones along their journey... sometimes as hunted refugees in a cave, all by themselves... sometimes even undressed in the courtyard!

The key is to let praise & worship be pure, transparently true, unadulterated, unadorned by "what we like", without pride nor pretense, and generously given to God through Jesus Christ.

In other words - when the instrumentation, organization, and maintenance overtake our simple song to God... perhaps it's time to lay these worldly things aside and refocus on what matters most. :cool:

[dmock66]

AMEN to EVERYONE!!!

Kitty - excellent post! That is the heart of it all - worship Jesus Christ!!! There was another post on this forum which described a very powerful, emotional service - the post went on to say "I never want to do that again as it's not TRUE worship but rather emotional manipulation."

Kewl also has some excellent points regarding being in a P&W band. Right now I'm in two - hopefully paring back down to one in the near term future - but I think about the money I've spent over the past three years trying to zero in on my guitar sound, get it JUST where I want it (the never ending quest)... the time I've spent turning knobs to get everything to sound better... the time practicing guitar... all time I didn't spend with my family or with God... then there is the "during the service" time where I'm focused on my track. One thing I can say now that I've been playing in a P&W group for the past four years - I'm MUCH more aware of putting myself in the presence of the Lord - an audience of ONE - when I play. I don't much care that there is 400+ people there - I play for HIM - and just pray each service that HE use me as HIS instrument in HIS ministry. I believe He gifted me with musical and leadership skills for His purpose so I give it back to Him in praise and worship. But I do agree - all the other fuss is me and it's a distraction - arguably a form a idolatry.

Great post!!! I've been lazy in my faith recently. Yes, I like to lean on the crutch/excuse that I've been finishing my basement over the past four months - but that is just what I said - an excuse. I've found time for other stuff - God deserves my best... and I need to give that to HIM.

[OlsonAcoustic]

You know how something seems so OBVIOUS once you finally realize it?

My thoughts on worship have come through quite a change in recent weeks. I have come to realize that all these debates over musical style, what instruments we use, what songs we sing, how long the song service lasts, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum, are all MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY.

Us worship leaders constantly discuss how to lead people "deeper into worship" when it has nothing to do with us or the music at all. We are overwhelmed with new worship music, worship leading seminars, schools of worship, new worship graphics, worship projection programs, worship "tools," blah blah blah. And we have to have an electric guitarist, or vocalists, or drummer, or who can pull off the song exactly the way everyone hears it on the radio.

You know what? NONE of that stuff is necessary! I was at a meeting of about 20 people a few weeks ago where a guy got up to lead worship with an OK voice, an out-of-tune 12-string, photocopied song sheets and old worship music. And WHAM! We were all immediately deep into a place of worship. That got me to wondering what the difference is, because I just came from a church where it kind of appeared as if a lot of the people really didn't know what to "do" during worship, even though it has been "modeled" over and over. And yet, I've led in other situations where the wave of worship just seemed to take off almost without me!

I think it was because almost everyone in that room has come into a deeper understanding of trusting God through hardships, being in ministry, prayer, etc. They know Jesus. I mean they KNOW Him.

We do not need more gear, more graphics, more seminars, more songs, more musicians on the team, more [i]whatever it is they're trying to sell us in Worship Leader Magazine... We do not need more revelation of how to worship. What we need is more revelation of Jesus Christ. We lead people deeper into worship by teaching them how to have a relationship with the One whom they are worshipping.

For example, I just finished taking a younger friend through a book study—just the two of us. We both really enjoyed it, and she learned some extremely important foundational things about her status before God, even though she has been in church all her life and had never been taught those things. We never once talked about worship, but I guarantee you her worship has deepened because of the truths she's realized and can now apply, which in turn has deepened her TRUST of Christ.

This is what leads to worship. It ain't the music. It ain't the worship leader. It ain't the PowerPoint. It's more revelation of Jesus Christ in our lives.

And I have come to believe this applies across the board, no matter what style of church you're in or how much freedom is allowed.

Seems blindingly obvious to me now that I see it.

Kitty

P.S. I don't discount the evangelistic power of worship, but I would contend that it's a case of worshippers who really know Christ and who are pouring out their hearts and trust through the music.

:shock: :!: :?: :shock: :shock: :shock:



God judges the heart! :grin:

[Kitty]

:shock: :!: :?: :shock: :shock: :shock:

God judges the heart! :grin:

True. But I'm not talking about judging the heart of the worshipper, or saying that we all should go back to simple worship, or that anyone with a huge worship team is doing things wrong.

What I'm trying to say is that what WE attempt to do as worship leaders — lead people deeper into the presence of God — cannot be accomplished separately from the teaching. The two are intertwined, but a revelation of truth must come first, followed by deepend worship... then another revelation of more truth, following by even deeper worship, and so on. It's just SO not about the songs or the worship leader or any of that other stuff.

I'm not saying strip it all down to just one guy with a guitar. If that's not your congregation's style or preference and you have 5,000 members and 4 worship teams and use all the latest worship software and graphics and everything else... great! There's nothing wrong with a church's style of worship. The problem is in thinking that ''good'' worship comes about by being the best in your style rather than by bringing the congregation into more revelation of God's truth.

I guess I'm trying to get at the true source of worship, the place from which it springs. The songs, the worship leader, the graphics... these things do not give life to worship, they are merely vehicles. People can get excited about the music for only so long, and then it starts to get old. But as the years go by and you learn more truth about Christ and about your own standing before before God because of Christ... about trusting Him, about WHY you can trust Him, about His grace and mercy and sovereignty and holiness, and the holiness He has now placed upon you because of His presence in your life... those kind of revelations do not grow old, and you're able to worship to anything, even though you may still have a preference of one style or another.

Kitty

[Jaybo]

Very interesting.

It's much "easier" to worship when you have a heart knowledge of God, and not just repeating words in a rhythmic form to some cool music.

Maybe it's our Western "label, and compartmentalize" everything mindset.

We do our devotions in the morning, then that's it.

We say our bedtime prayers, and that's it.

We "worship" on Sunday mornings, and that's it.

[stephen]

This thread right here, is one of the many things on my heart, that was a major factor in starting this forum!

Its not how many members in the Praise team, or how accomplished a musician, or how well the songs are orchestrated......... its all about where our hearts are, and are they focused on Jesus!

Yes, only He can judge, but we can examine ourselves too see if its all about Jesus, or all about ourselves..........

GREAT TOPIC!!!!!!!

[Brian]

...I'm not saying strip it all down to just one guy with a guitar. If that's not your congregation's style or preference... great! There's nothing wrong with a church's style of worship. The problem is in thinking that ''good'' worship comes about by being the best in your style rather than by bringing the congregation into more revelation of God's truth... The songs, the worship leader, the graphics... these things do not give life to worship, they are merely vehicles... KittyIs there (cultural) bias about what worship is starting from the individual congregation member to the whole body; what is worshipful music, that a worship leader (and each member of their team) must be mindful of?

Do we as worship leaders set an example by our attitude of worship (or lack thereof) during a worship service, and help provide a vehicle for the body made up of varying states of spiritual maturity (that God has placed us in), to enter into a state of worship?

Are we playing for the body unto the Lord? for the body? for ourselves?

Are we as worship leaders a distraction if we play a style of music that the body cannot relate to, or if we play poorly (unskillfuly)?

Do we as worship leaders need to put aside our own bias and be able to enter deeper into worship regadless of style, the key signature, the lights, the powerpoint (or hymnals), the poorly written (inaccurate) charts, the poor monitor mix, or the dragging drummer?

[Jaybo]

Those are some great questions.

I always have the struggle between perfromance, leading, worship, and face melting solo's. :shock:

I think sometimes we consciously, or subconsciously try to manipulate God, or manipulate the people.

God is always there, we can't "enter His presence", or have Him "show up".

I don't know, it's all a balance of knowledge of truth, relationship with God, and actual bodily feelings.

And I'm sure we've all had times where we didn't think we were getting the plane off the ground, but then somebody comes up to us and tells us how awesome they thought it was.

[Barry]

Sorry if I'm repeating anyone, but I gotta go with my train of thought....

As I've come to see it, when serving during Worship:

Decreased ego = The Lord works and plays THROUGH you, using your skill and style as a musician as a conduit to His purpose. One who is truly in that place of Worship isn't too awfully concerned over their part because they know the Lord is leading and directing and will tell everyone what He wants to accomplish in "this morning's worship service" (which is sometimes not at all what WE have planned).

For example, I've been involved in services where we've worked on a lot of music in rehearsal then the service itself ends up containg next to NO music. More like an hour or more of continuous prayer and intercession.

Increased ego = You're playing under your own steam, which might be good in a technical sense but is relatively meaningless in a spiritual sense as you and those around you might not be receiving what the Lord would give you. In essence, a Worship service is not a concert where the attention is primarily on the performers. It should never be. If it is at times, then the "performers" (eg: choir, musicians, whatever) should be in that Holy Spirit-Filled state where their own egos are overwhelmed by the power of The Lord working and playing through them via the music (or acting, or whatever).

As an example of this, one church I was active in had a choir that was pretty good and had done some touring. It was decided to have a special night where the church hired a professional crew to come in with their pro-level recording gear (the console itself took up an entire office) to record the choir (and us musicians, of course) live with the intent of releasing a cassette to local Christian bookstores. It was to contain the choir's best songs that the church could also get copyright clearances on. Although it wasn't tagged as a "Worship Service", there was at least 2 to 3 minutes of praising God after each and every song during the session. The final mixdown and release never happened for one reason or another (which may have included the "stage fright" factor - there were 5 times more mics visible than we were used to), but it didn't matter to anyone because that kind of "success" wasn't a priority. Everyone just enjoyed singing and playing for the Lord. Nobody took any glory for it because all the Glory was His. It was as simple as that.

The human ego steps away in humility and humbleness and allows The Lord to use us to His Glory and Purpose.

[OlsonAcoustic]

:shock: :!: :?: :shock: :shock: :shock:

God judges the heart! :grin:

True. But I'm not talking about judging the heart of the worshipper, or saying that we all should go back to simple worship, or that anyone with a huge worship team is doing things wrong.

What I'm trying to say is that what WE attempt to do as worship leaders — lead people deeper into the presence of God — cannot be accomplished separately from the teaching. The two are intertwined, but a revelation of truth must come first, followed by deepend worship... then another revelation of more truth, following by even deeper worship, and so on. It's just SO not about the songs or the worship leader or any of that other stuff.

I'm not saying strip it all down to just one guy with a guitar. If that's not your congregation's style or preference and you have 5,000 members and 4 worship teams and use all the latest worship software and graphics and everything else... great! There's nothing wrong with a church's style of worship. The problem is in thinking that ''good'' worship comes about by being the best in your style rather than by bringing the congregation into more revelation of God's truth.

I guess I'm trying to get at the true source of worship, the place from which it springs. The songs, the worship leader, the graphics... these things do not give life to worship, they are merely vehicles. People can get excited about the music for only so long, and then it starts to get old. But as the years go by and you learn more truth about Christ and about your own standing before before God because of Christ... about trusting Him, about WHY you can trust Him, about His grace and mercy and sovereignty and holiness, and the holiness He has now placed upon you because of His presence in your life... those kind of revelations do not grow old, and you're able to worship to anything, even though you may still have a preference of one style or another.

Kitty

I think I need to clarify what I mean. God works through a heart that is willing to be worked through. I think you have stated well what God can do with ANYBODY who approacehs the throne with a willing to serve heart. When that heart starts with the premise that it's indeed all about him, anything can happen. No style included, no instrument included, no tone ears included.

I would be cautious about "deepened" worship. That starts a cycle of expectation that changes peoples motives. We move from shallow faith to deeper faith, indeed, but we do not need to expect God to show himself in bigger ways, because God just plain is. He never changes, but we do.

You are right. It is not the leaders, guitars or whatever that makes the worship, rocks can worship.

As is often the case at big get togethers of various churches, the professional worship bands come out in force and "do their thing" for lack of a better term. We had a big get together recently, churches from all over the mid-western part of the USA, and the worship teams came in force. They played new songs that nobody knew, they jammed harder and harder, and by the end of the get together, folks grew tired of the "concert" type atmosphere. Lindsy Morton was the last worship leader to get up on stage for the big gathering. She got up there with her guitar and her voice. Nothing else. She closed her eyes after saying that she was really nervous, and just began to worship. One song she did not know how to play, so she just sang it. The song show plus guy in charge of the video projectors was having the time of his life finding words to songs that she did not place on the set list. He eventually gave up and just turned the projectors off. We were all in tears, not because Lindsy Morton got up there, but because God found a willing heart, and indeed a room full of willing hearts, and worship happened.

:!: Imagine that!

I hope you understand what I am saying. There aint much we can ever do but seek God's kingdom first, and just let the rest happen.

[stephen]

I hope you understand what I am saying. There aint much we can ever do but seek God's kingdom first, and just let the rest happen.

I love this quote! Thank You!

[tom grossheider]

I certainly agree with you Kitty. I've primarily been a guitar player in the P&W band for about 15 years or so. I'll sub on bass or acoustic now and then. A few years ago I was asked to "lead worship" at our summer family camp in the north woods of Wisconsin. After much prayer it went pretty well I think, just shared from my heart what God was impressing on me. Shortly after I was asked to "lead worship" on a Sunday morning in front of 800 - 1000 people. I was scared to death, but sensed that God wanted me to do it. I've done it a few times, and people have come up afterwards to tell me how God has touched them. For me, that is the point of worship, that they should see Jesus and be led by His Spirit into a deeper, life transforming walk with Him. I never thought singing was my gift, but it seems to come out alright. But to see Him is what I seek after, and we all know "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto Me." Back to the audience of One.

[dmock66]

I certainly agree with you Kitty. I've primarily been a guitar player in the P&W band for about 15 years or so. I'll sub on bass or acoustic now and then. A few years ago I was asked to "lead worship" at our summer family camp in the north woods of Wisconsin. After much prayer it went pretty I think, just shared from my heart what God was impressing on me. Shortly after I was asked to "lead worship" on a Sunday morning in front of 800 - 1000 people. I was scared to death, but sensed that God wanted me to do it. I've done it a few times, and people have come up afterwards to tell me how God has touched them. For me, that is the point of worship, that they should see Jesus and be led by His Spirit into a deeper, life transforming walk with Him. I never thought singing was my gift, but it seems to come out alright. But to see Him is what I seek after, and we all know "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto Me." Back to the audience of One.

Well spoken Tom. I was asked to lead worship during an "alter call" portion of Discovery Weekend a few weeks ago. I too am an electric guitarist - fill in on bass/acoustic - and also don't feel vocals to be my gift. Granted this was a powerful night all the way around - but through singing a few songs the entire room of 100+ went through all the Kleenex in the church then half the toilet paper because everyone wept for about 90 minutes. After it was overwith all the adult volunteers said something to me - similarly - that they really feel the Holy Spirit in a powerful way when I sing and play. Me - I ALWAYS pray that God use me as HIS instrument whenever I play my guitar. I truly don't view it as leading worship - I am there to worship - if others want to join in - they are welcome to. There is ALWAYS room at the Lord's table.

[Teleguy]

...I am there to worship - if others want to join in - they are welcome to. There is ALWAYS room at the Lord's table.

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!
That's the ticket. :cool:

[Brian]

...Me - I ALWAYS pray that God use me as HIS instrument whenever I play my guitar. I truly don't view it as leading worship - I am there to worship - if others want to join in - they are welcome to. There is ALWAYS room at the Lord's table.Amen! There is always room at the Lord's table.

This thread started with Kitty stating that worship isn't about the songs we sing, the style, lights, powerpoint, but rather about a relationship with Jesus Christ, that isn't limited to 20-40 minutes on Sunday morning and/or Wednesday night. I'll be the first to confess that I am the least among thee for living up to that. Kitty relates how the Holy Spirit used her spiritual maturity, her witness, her love for a friend, along with teaching to help deepen her friend's (and perhaps other believers') relationship with Christ and their understanding of what worship is. Later the thoughts began to turn to the role of music (something we share that nourishes us) and Kitty mentions that music is a vehicle for expressing worship, and thoughts were expressed on our role in leading/playing/singing before the body, and unto the Lord.

I asked some questions that seek to let us examine ourselves and ask if whether we who sing/play before the body unto the Lord, in a leadership role; if our hearts are in a place that helps the Holy Spirit to use us as a vehicle to deepen the worshipper’s relationship with Christ through a corporate worship song service, despite differences in age, culture, and spiritual maturity.

The Holy Spirit works in us, through us, around us, and despite us, and He works in His time, not ours. But that didn't lessen my disappointment last Sunday when I saw 3 ladies in their 60s visiting our church for the first time walk out of church after the (young adult/youth oriented) song service, before the sermon despite the pleading from a similarly aged church elder who knew each of them pleading "...don't give up on us yet...". Perhaps had they come to the traditional or mature adult oriented services on either side of that time slot, they may have stayed for an excellent teaching sermon on stewardship that may have helped deepen their relationship with Christ. I would have felt blessed if I had overheard them say they enjoyed the song service and the sermon, rather than sprinting for the door because they were repulsed by the style of music.

I'm not talking about manipulation; I'm talking about servant leadership; the basin and the towel; in love - putting others' needs for nourishment; an atmosphere that allows them to express what’s in their hearts, before my own spiritual and emotional needs for what is worshipful music. Perhaps I should be satisfied that I was giving my best, I was "being real before the Lord", and that they could join me.

But I'm not. I’ll pray that He prepare my heart (especially) to be open to the needs of others, and open the hearts of others, that the service be a vehicle for us all to become one in song… to Him. But it need not be “my song” though because I know that after the service, I can sing at the top of my lungs in my car on the way, or at home with my guitar in any style.

That's a witness, an expression of love.

[Kitty]

Brian,

You somehow make it sound much more noble than I meant when I first wrote. :-)

I think if I boil down what I'm trying to get at, it's the flat-out rejection of the idea that people will worship "better" if we sing THESE kind of songs, or have THIS kind of worship leader, or have THESE instruments in the band, or use THIS type of projection system, etc. etc. etc.

None of that is what causes people to worship. It only helps (maybe) the ones who are already there to worship.

I'm just wanting the focus to move off of the STUFF and back over to a continuing learning and heart-knowledge of Jesus Christ personally and individually. This is the source of worship.

Kitty

[Brian]

Brian, You somehow make it sound much more noble than I meant when I first wrote. :-) ... KittyDear Sister, perhaps a reflection of more nobility than you wished to claim, or perhaps a reflection of more nobility than you at first realized.

Noble none the less... :grin:

I think if I boil down what I'm trying to get at, it's the flat-out rejection of the idea that people will worship "better" if we sing THESE kind of songs, or have THIS kind of worship leader, or have THESE instruments in the band, or use THIS type of projection system, etc. etc. etc. None of that is what causes people to worship. It only helps (maybe) the ones who are already there to worship. ... Kitty My lovely wife seldom went to my secular rock/pop dates - & never to the bar dates though she attends most of the jazz dates I do. She doesn't like the middle time slot young adult/youth oriented service because of the style of songs; attending that service ONLY when there is a 11:00 am Pacific time NASCAR race so she can be in front of the tube when it starts :roll: . Don't we all have our preference?

My parents were Seventh Day Adventists with Jesus in their hearts. I'm an evangelical. Romans 14 - 15 was up close and personal and really brings it home for me.

I presented an unfortunate example of where "THESE kind of songs" may have really mattered. I don't know and didn't get to meet the 3 women before they flew out the door. Perhaps mature in years, but not spiritually mature enough to put aside their FLESHLY bias about what kind of songs are so UNsuitable for a worship song service they refused to stay and hear the Word of God spoken/taught afterward that will help them receive "continued learning and heart-knowledge of Jesus Christ personally and individually".

It happens... OK so maybe WE can't appeal to everyone. Do we cast them out of our hearts, our church until they become more mature in Christ and will come to a worship song service despite the style to hear God's Word? pray for the Holy Spirit to guide them to their place at the Lord's table elsewhere? Should we make our hearts available to the Holy Spirit so HE can do in us/through us that which we cannot do ourselves anywhere he places us, anytime?

Does it even matter?

[Crossroadsguitar]

Kitty,

this thread has reinforced a lot of the thoughts that I have had. As a new church developer I have been asking the question, who are we as a community and how can we communicate God's transforming love most effectivaly to the people God brings to us.

This has changed the way that I have looked at all aspects of worship.

[Kitty]

Does it even matter?

I'm not sure at the moment. I have lost (or am finally getting) focus these days.

As a side note: I posted this same topic over on a board which is strictly for people of my former association. The only reply I have gotten so far (granted, it's a VERY slow board anyway, but nonetheless) was this:

"An out of tune 12-string? That can't be good."

To quote Archie Bunker, "Good night, nurse!"

Can you totally miss the point any bigger than that? :roll:

Kitty

[Brian]

...I posted this same topic over on a board which is strictly for people of my former association. The only reply I have gotten so far was this: "An out of tune 12-string? That can't be good." Can you totally miss the point any bigger than that? :roll: KittySorry I spent so much bandwidth hijackking the thread. You are kind not to say I don't have a clue... ;) . We had a great sermon on this today... Worship is living life every day for the Lord, in truth, and understanding just who it is we worship. John 4:23, 24. Love you Sister.

[tom grossheider]

I find my thoughts being more clarified about worship as I continue walking with Christ. I emailed a local ministry about our worship band/team being a part of the Nascar Weekend here in Chicago in July, as they have quite a few outreaches planned for the 150,000 + people coming for the races. Looks like our band won't be able to do anything, and while I was contemplating doing it myself on an acoustic, the pastor in charge emailed back asking if I would be willing to do it myself on acoustic!! And I agreed right away... :lol:
Anyway, this looks like it will be a small worship time at the track with the ministry volunteers at 0630 on Sunday, then perhaps something a bit later in the morning at one of the campgrounds. I'm pretty excited about the opportunity, what will worship look like at 0630 at a Nascar track? Will God be there? You bet He will! I'm looking forward to it!

[jono007]

it's amazing how God uses our weaknesses to shame the strong.

This is right on the cutting edge of my own walk as a worship leader. I'm learning that there needs to be less of me and more of Jesus. It's not about self-esteem or self-awareness - these things just lead to worship of the self. I must decrease so that He can increase.

We've just come off a week of 24 hours a day prayer. Our main meetings for the church was at 6am - 7:30am before people go to work. Each of the worship sessions just had guitar and sometimes a keyboard. But God spoke so powerfully at each morning that it makes me think we should have this sort of instrumentation all the time...

Of course, it's not the instrumentation.

It's so encouraging to see that He is moving so mightily right around the world.

Let's focus on Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith.