Question about amp and tone approach

[I ain't that cool!]

I am not posting this to create an "Us vs. Them" argument, or to look down on anyone's musical "thing", I'm just honestly curious.

In reading a lot of the posts on this forum about amps and tone, I get the impression that almost everyone is into either small combo amps or DI devices like POD's & stuff. Since a lot of us play in churches and P & W bands, I can see how you would use that kind of gear by necessity.

One of my big "haggles" about guitar tone is that I don't like tones (esp. distorted rock/metal tones) that sound like they're coming from a small amp.
I can almost always tell if a tone is generated by a small combo vs. a half-stack or big amp config. I MUCH prefer the big amp sound (at least 2-12's driven by at least 50, preferably 100 watts), and the "little amp" sound drives me nuts.

Now I know that logistically, big amps are a bummer to haul around, and are usually way too much power for smaller & more intimate band set-ups and venues, and I know that there are some really nice small combos out there.
Still, I have never found a substitute for the output of a big amp with 2x12 or 4x12 cabs, even if it's at lower volumes.
(Also, I'm not a "metalhead" per se, but I love a big crunchy tone for the rock stuff I do.
FYI: I play a Carvin Legacy Steve Vai Sig. Model 100-w, thru 2x12 cab w/vintage celestion 30w spkrs).


Am I alone in this observation/hangup?
Am I the only dork who is still unwilling to compromise on this point and still drags his 1/2 stack to play in the worship service just to get the tone I want?
Can anyone out there relate to what I'm saying?

Again, this isn't a put-down to guys who use smaller amp combos, it's just an honest question.

Thoughts?

[reverbbb]

1/2 stacks are awesome - ain't no doubt about it. But the problem is two fold.

1. Many of us who started out using them in the 70's are having severe back issues. I am fotunate that I am not one of those. I loved my '70 basketweave and I am still crying that I sold it and my '70 1959SLA for a mere $800. Why? It was too big and too loud, and I was playing far more keyboards at the time.

2. Many churches and venues are sensitive to the volume of a 50W or 100W amp. Many guitarist don't know what the audience tolerance level is. Therefore, the look and the sound of a 1/2 stack is omminous and scary to the folks in charge of the assembly. Many churches and club venues these days are seating less than 300 people. 100W can be a bit much. Attenuators? Yeah but by the time you tweak and squeeze the sound down to the listening level, you might as well have had a killer 18W and 2x12.

I recently began ramping back up again. kewlpack and another friend can confirm that I have gone to the amp crazy side of the spectrum again. I now have a 1960AC cabinet, 1922 cabinet, 1987 RI 50W head and a '79 JCM 50W head. I bought all of that this past 5 months. But I still have my Dr. Z Maz 18.

The other night I was recording. The 18W could be heard just fine and it had a lot of character. But you are right, it does not roar and shake the windows like my Marshalls. I find the Marshalls to be 'more filling, less stuffy'. The Marshalls just simply are fun - no doubt about it.

Now, I am wondering should I take the next step and jump back into the 1959 head :roll: .

[stephen]

You may be surprised to find out, that an awful lot of studio recordings, the guitarist utilizes small 1-12 combo's!

I used to be very biased towards 100 watt, full stack, Marshall's. But I realized it had its limitations. If I played in club that would seat under 500, I could never crank that Marshall too where it sounded sweet. Also, in the recording studio, a full (or half) stack just seemed a bit too much.

I remember the first time in the studio, I plugged into a little tweed 1-12. I couldnt beleive I was gettin all the tone out of it that I was! that is what started my love affair with lil combo amps. Hey, I figure I aint gonna be playin any arena's, or the staple center any time soon, so these cool, lil combo amps do me just fine.

Now some of the combo amps sound like a little combo amp, but some deliver really sweet tone, and for me, they deliver the goods!

I am jonesin to try out one of those little 18watt Marshall's: They definitely got me droolin!

[Crunchyriff]

When I'm in the studio, it's pretty much about the sound I'm looking for (ususally the sound of my rig, or some iteration of it); but it's also about what I need for a certain song. Usually, I'll use exactly what I have, and not outsource any extra gear.

Guys like Zappa would decry stacks in the studio- and his reasoning was that the closer to a 1:1 ratio between mic diaphragm size and speaker size is the most optimum- and so you have guys like Zappa, Gilmour and the like who at times utilize(d) the smallest combo possible for tracking, and then would play all sorts of games with those initial tracks, after they are recorded...like sending the recorded guitar tracks thru a larger system to get some "depth" and fullness, and record the larger speakers to tape. (I've done this, and it's pretty cool.)

Then you have these guys doing things as certain solos being done directly into the console, with no amplification whatsoever- Gilmour comes to mind again. I've learned that NOTHING is off-limits when it comes to tracking. Half of the fun in recording is the creative process of getting the sound you want, and the means to do so; let alone stumbling onto something you never would have done otherwise.

For me, I prefer to use what I use live- it's what I want to hear. Marshalls/Traynor (for cleans) and LesPaul..TomAnderson, and so on. It's not that difficult to get a great recorded tone out of a 4x12.

When I did the Day III tracks in '96, we used my (at the time) Soldano-based wet-dry-wet rig, and got nice results.
We used these mics on the rig:

Groove Tube 1st gen tube mic on the Soldano 4x12 (close-micd)

Shure SM57 on one RAM 2x12 cab w/ Fane Crescendos (close micd)

Sennheiser 441 behind the 2x12 cab (open back cab)

Sennhesier 421 about 6' from the cabs @3' high.

AKG pencil condenser about 9' from the cabs (and about 7' high)

Some PZM thing pasted up on the wood wall of the piano room that this all was recorded in.

Depending on the song, we would mix the mics 'to taste' so to speak.

The 'piano room' also had a substantial playback system in the walls, and for one or two of my solos on the CD, we played back the solo tracks thru the house sys, and recorded THAT. Oh what fun!

One thing I will not use, is modeling amps of anykind. If they work for other people, great. No goot for me. :P

[reverbbb]

Reocrding is fun and experimental for me as well. I am no proffesional, but I am learning a lot every time I do a home project.

Just this week, I finished (is it ever finished?) a new song that I wrote. I am very unhappy with my mix-down so you cannot hear it yet.

The opening guitar lick on the intro was important for me. I used my Les Paul. But I could not get a texture that I wanted for the song through either of my Marshalls. So, I tried going direct into my 2488 digital recorder with built in effects. The built in effects are very limited and do not sound too good to my ears.

Then I tried my Pod Pro. Whalla! I was suddenly a lot closer to something that I wanted to hear. But I wanted to get funky, so I stuck my pedal board in front. That did the trick. I used my Keeley compressor, Drivetrain II, tremlo sound from a MM4, a slapback echo from the DL4, the spring reverb from the Pod Pro. Was that saturated with effects? Certainly! Was it muddy? Certainly, but I worked out a short and precise lick phrase that got your attention instead of the effects. Then I just used the Les Paul for a broken rhythm that was under the 3 acoustic guitar tracks (yes, I said 3 - I was retracking to get rid of mistakes when I realized that they sounded cooler when stacked and crossed panned).

Now for the other leads. I wanted the other electric guitars to have tone and character. So I used my MIM Strat in the 4 position for a bunch of quack. I used my Maz 18 and mic'd one of the 10's at zero distance. This was a good sound but a little bright, a little out of character for the song and full of mistakes. So, I came back and did another take but this time in the neck position and the Drivetrain. I tweaked the amp EQ to make it a little darker. After hear good points from both takes, I decided to use both tracks and edit out the overlaps. The result is nearly dualing guitars.

Now if only I could fix my voice. I feel like John Lennon who hated his voice and tried to mask it with special effects constantly.

As soon as I fix the mix-down, I will post the song on .mp3. I was horrified to learn that all my mix-down work was at the wrong output level. This causes you to have to turn the volume of the playback realy loud and it begins to compress un-naturally through your playback system. I shoud get some time this week to fix it. Then, I am moving on to my next recording project.

[Teleguy]

Some best loved Rock Classics were recorded on Fender Champs!
But they won't flap your pantlegs like a 4 X 12. :(

[Pearly Gator]

My favorite amp would be a 2X12, 50 watt all tube amp head/cab but hauling it would be impractical for me. (Think Fender blackface or blonde Bandmaster.) Playing at church, I have no roadie. I have to pack my guitar in a case, a gig bag of chords, effects, music and spares and an amp. Carrying everything in one trip from the car, my solid state 1X12 80 watt combo is the biggest thing I can carry. In the recent past I owned a blonde bassman with 2X12 and an Ampeg V50H half stack with 4X12. I sold them because I never used them. When playing outdoors, I have a 1X12 extension cab for the 80 watt combo that brings me up to 2X12 and 160 watts.

The youth band at our church does use Marshall half stacks and Line6 Vettas. In a sanctuary that seats ~600, it gets painfully loud. Poor sound guy has a serious problem with bleed through on the stage microphones.

PG

[kewlpack]

Yeowza - good thread.

Part of me wants a monster stereo marshall setup along with a monster Fender Vibroverb setup... eh... but then I come back to earth. :shock:

-- (NEW as of 12/4/2004) VOX Valvetronix AD50VT
-- MIA Strat HSS (w/S-1)
-- Ovation s771 (mid-depth)

The VOX amp is amazing tonally. Wow. It really is an achievement on their part.

The only things I would like to add are:

-- Schecter C1/EA (semi hollow body with Piezo and humbuckers). OR Rowan Montara (same as the C1 but better wood and too expensive).

There are probably several other little upgrades I could add, but I would lose portability and ultimately some flexibility.

I keep eyeing that Dr Z 18w Rev has! 8) hehehe.

Just make it sound sweet without breaking the bank. A guy I'm close to once said: "...do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth...", so I'm trying to keep it simple - I have to keep turning my "wanter" off.

Grace and peace!
~A~

[Teleguy]

I've had periods where we used big Rock & Roll rigs (multiple Ampegs, Mesa 2:95's, 4 X 12's, etc), for outdoor Prison ministry band concerts, etc.
My ears still ring from the mid-eighties! :roll:

But P.A.'s are so comprehensive and big now in the big 1,000 seater churches, everything gets mic'd whether it's big or small, then folded back through monitors with separate mixes as loud as you like.

Best recent outdoor concert sound I've had was with a mic'd up 15 watt Ampeg J-12T, and a soundman who knew what he was doing.

For Praise & Worship at our lil' ol' 100 or so seater drug rehab/church, I use a 50w Ampeg SJ-12t, but it's turned WAY down. Barely cracked!
Then I turn the guitar down too. Sounds decent, but I barely get any distortion now, just a Bluesy edge on solo's. Fine with me. I'm sick of me through mondo distortion.
My ears haven't stopped ringing since 1972 anyway! :shock:

[Crunchyriff]

The youth band at our church does use Marshall half stacks and Line6 Vettas. In a sanctuary that seats ~600, it gets painfully loud. Poor sound guy has a serious problem with bleed through on the stage microphones.


In spite of the gear listed here, there is NO excuse for this. When I take my Marshalls to church, I don't kill anybody with volume.

It's called self-control.

[I ain't that cool!]

Amen to that, Crunchyriff!

No matter what piece of gear you use, attitude and self-control are what it's all about!

Like I said at the top of this post, I still use my 1/2 stack(w/100-watt head) in the worship service, open-miked with a SM-57, and I play with with a crunchy rock/metal-type tone, and fairly loud most of the time, but I work with the soundman and worship leader(s) to make sure that it's not too loud or disruptive, and that my cab isn't aimed at anyone.

I use a compressor when necessary, and I set my EQ so that there are no excessive frequencies that inflict pain.

I know that certain styles of music require higher volume levels to sound good, but if the sound is bad or painful to people it's either:

a) The soundman doesn't know what he/she is doing, and the mix reflects that.

b) The equipment being used by musicians/soundman is inferior or inadequate.

c) The musicians are unruly and/or out of control, and probably don't really know what they're doing with their own gear.

d) Everything is actually really good with the sound and the band, it's just being perceived as "painful" by people who are genuinely sensitive to loud volume (which I've met some great people who love the music but have sensitive ears), or by people who are critical and want to complain.

That's not a jab at anyone, it's just what years of experience has taught me.

Like with PearlyGator, who described the loud youth band earlier in this post, you've got a bunch of players who are out of control with their stage volume, and it's giving the soundman and the listeners problems.
(When as a church band, you're too loud and disruptive for another guitarist, then it's definitely time to rethink what you're doing!)

If we want to make a highway for the Lord to travel in our worship, we've got to put ourselves aside and do what it takes to serve and give as musicians.

I've worked very hard, over a course of years, to incorporate my 1/2 stack tone into our worship band without making anyone's ears bleed. As a matter of fact, I've gotten compliments from a lots of people in our church about my sound, even from our soundcrew, and I play in a small church building that barely seats 200+.

With the right attitude, and hard work, it can be done.

[Crunchyriff]

Am I the only dork who is still unwilling to compromise on this point and still drags his 1/2 stack to play in the worship service just to get the tone I want?


To answer your question: Uhh...I guess not. :D

I must say, I mostly use my Traynor YCV80Q combo at church; but as I have described, sometimes I bring the Marshalls, too. 8)

[MrMike]

My church has a Johnson Millenium amp for us to use, and the other guitar player has a Buddy Guy Custom Shop Strat that he leaves at the church. It makes it easy to get a pretty decent sound at a reasonable volume level. For my regular P&W gigs with the band, I use my Peavey Classic 50 with Greenbacks and a Roland VG-88, which also allows me to get a pretty decent sound without hurting anybody.

[TheViking]

... i will say it again. I love ENGL amps. For bigger gigs I use a classic 50 top and a 4x10 cabinet. I know it is a lot of gear to drag around so I tried out the Classic 50 combo with 2x10, it is one sweet lil piece of work. I will get one of those for the smaller gigs. I know sound is a matter of taste, but the ENGL amps continues to amaze me time and time again. I plug in a Les Paul, it sounds like i want it to, I plug in a Tele, it sounds like I want it to. I plug in any of my semi acoustics, and yeah they sound like I want them to as well. The combo is fairly small (22,6 W x 18,9 H x 10,6 D) and weighs around 48 lbs. That aint too much to carry for having a killer tone now is it?????

[Crunchyriff]

I plug in a Les Paul, it sounds like i want it to, I plug in a Tele, it sounds like I want it to. I plug in any of my semi acoustics, and yeah they sound like I want them to as well.

Well, there's not much more one could ask for, is there?? 8)

[Teleguy]

Indeed!
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

[randy_mc]

I'm blessed to play p/w at a fairly large church (seats 3,000).

The Soldano half stack has seen its fair share of services. Now, I'm mostly playing a Bogner Metropolis (30 watts, Class A, 212). Its a love thang, for sure!

If I weren't able to use one of these monsters, then I'd check into a smaller combo like an AC15 or Fender Deluxe. There are some boutique amps out there that would also fit in that power range.

I haven't played through a POD, or anything like that.

If you can get away with it, big amps sound bigger.

[Ascension]

I have a Rocktron Chameleon rack midi rig but for the most part won`t use it because it nuters my tecnique.I use one of my 100 Watt Tube Carvins exclusivly live.For small gigs in a small Church or home I use my Clubmaster 1/12 for med size venues one of my MTS`s the Combo or my head and a 2/12 for large halls black gospel or out doors where I need projection and volume my MTS head /Yamaha 4/12 cab halfstack. A modeling amp like a Pod to me is HORRABLE it just sterilizes everything and nuters the dynamics right out of the playing.My Carvins will get quite low in Volume and have been in controll of the situation so far.I spent most of the 80`s- mid 90`s on the road in White Metal bands and also prefer the "meat" of a larger cab but somethimes it`s just not practical.Unlike the Boogies, Fenders, Marshalls, Soldanos ect I have owned the MTS and Valvemaster Carvins are quite usable at low volumes ,and have performed well in the Church settings(not to mention in EVERY way KILLING the tones of ALL I have so far owned!!).

[kewlpack]

Unlike the Boogies, Fenders, Marshalls, Soldanos ect I have owned the MTS and Valvemaster Carvins are quite usable at low volumes ,and have performed well in the Church settings(not to mention in EVERY way KILLING the tones of ALL I have so far owned!!).
You know, my current guitar teacher (always get a lesson when you can - unless you are Satriani/Vai!) swears by Carvin's amps. "Best sounding amp I've ever played..." he tells me.

~A~

[stephen]

All the tone I need!

Here's my amp, its stock except that it is loaded with some slightly used NOS tubes, and sounds totally awesome!:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/PraiseCaster/gv40_lg-84c170b62a2a77cea11e5ac4dccaa6e2.jpg

Here's my pedal baord (I do plan on gettin some more: a wah-wah, a volume pedal, and an Ibanez FLD9 Flanger):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/PraiseCaster/TS808-ffd313153e8be473484727672bb94208.jpg

And here is my guitar and my lovely wife:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/PraiseCaster/Praisecaster_and_wife.jpg

I love this little rig, and I have gotten more compliments from it than I can believe! But most importantly, to me it sounds sooo sweet!

Its wierd lookin at myself in that picture; I've lost 60lbs, and while I'm still big, I dont look near as big as this! But I still got about 100lbs to go, but its doable!

[Nickcha]

First let me say thatI am very aware and sensative to the fact guys have to go with what they can afford, and I DO NOT want to come across as a tone-snob, especially since I'm new here and most guys don't know me....from Adam (a little church humor there :lol: ).

Anyway, Below is a pix of the amps I use regularly in church - and our church is small. These are BIG sounding loud amps: a couple '67 50w Plexis, a '68 412 (G12H30s), a '60 VOX AC30/4 and a '61 AC30/6.

I have used most everything and I love the BIG sound of vintage amps. I'm not necessarily looking for a super distortion sound (which many guys confuse with a BIG sound), but I want to feel those tube right through my fingers: super responsive, complex harmonics. It gives a very appealing warm chewy sound that even non musical, middle-aged female congregation members can like. Sometimes we design our sound for other guitar players and not the congregation.

I am very sensative to the need to play within a "worship level" and not turn the congregation into an audience. So what I've done is designed the Lexan sheild you see in the pix. It's perfectly designed to accommodate my open-backed AC30s or my 412. And it really works very well. The volume is dissipated as it's forced up into the ceiling, severly lessening the spkr blast and lowering the stage level.

I use to use attenuators (especially w/ the AC30s) but by keeping the amps down to about 40-50% the shield does the work. I get a really chewy clean-to-grind level and because of the type of amps I use the sound/tone is very complex with lots of natural compression. Perfect for P&W. If I need more OD I just step on a pedal and I'm there. The tone is...well, use your imagination :D

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2001-12/6752/ChurchRig+.jpg






If you're in a larger sanctuary and need more volume, you can always go THIS ROUTE (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2001-12/6752/GoldenMoment.jpg) :wink:

[Ascension]

Here are my main rigs http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/rutledri/IM000138.jpg

[stephen]

Wow, nice rigs! Nick, I especially like the rig for the large sanctuary!

rutldri, that carvin rig, is just screamin tone! Wow!

Hey, maybe reverbbb can post that picture of his little Carvin amp he uses for small venues: Roger, you know the one I'm talkin about, dontchya?

[reverbbb]

Well, this is what I use as a practice amp in Texas. My real rig that I use at church can be a little harder to manage due to it's size. :wink:

http://home.comcast.net/~rprivitt/160_6050s.jpg

[Ascension]

:shock: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Reverbbb I bet THAT will get a nice slap echo off tha back wall LOL!

[Nickcha]

Reverbbb,

THAT is hysterical. I laughed out loud. You need some rattlesnake hides draped over the top.



I couldn't resist my childish urge.....
Here's the backline at our church :lol: :lol:


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2001-12/6752/HWsPlexis1.jpg