topic that came up in my college class last week

[mattd]

we talked about it again tonight, wanted to get your opinions on this.

1. do humans have the ability to be perfect? we all have free will to do what we want, do we have the ability to make the right choice all the time?


2. did Jesus, being fully God AND fully human, have a sin nature? and did he have the ability to sin, if he had the desire to?

[Jaybo]

2)The bible says that Jesus was "in all ways tempted" as we are.

So if He was tempted - then He had the ability to sin.

1) Jesus said that "no one comes to the father except by me". So what we "do" is not as important as what we believe, and what we have with Jesus.

We are all born with our sin nature, so even if it were technically possible to "do" the "right" thing at every choice (which will NEVER happen) we would still need Jesus.

-Okay, I know I answered them backwards...and my bible quotes aren't exact. :shredder

[Crunchyriff]

I think the answer is both yes and NO.

1. In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (Jesus)

2. When the Word became flesh, this perfect, holy Jesus inhabited a mortal body born of both the Holy Spirit and flesh. So, though flesh CAN be tempted, it is impossible for Jesus to sin, simply by virtue of His perfect, Holy nature. Jesus had all authority over this flesh by means of His Spirit.

That's how I look at it. YMMV.

[Strat-tastic]

1 No, I don't think man can be perfect, otherwise he could earn his own way into heaven.

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, "I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin"?

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

The way I visualise it is this: Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, and that in some way poisoned their bodies. This corruption is passed on to all offspring. The only way God could make someone holy and sinless, was through His Holy Spirit taking the part of man, and through a virgin, who had not united her flesh with any sinful man.

So, going onto question 2, I must say I don't know. I tend to agree with Jaybo's answer, But Jesus was (and is!) God's perfect answer to the problem of sin, so there was no way that He could sin and thereby ruin God's salvation plan.

Another mystery of God yet to be revealed. :bowdown:

[Teleguy]

Probably 1,000 children died of waterborne disease somewhere in the world while I ate my breakfast and did nothing about it.

I sin more before breakfast than most people do all day!

It's not possible for me to stop sinning in this world until I lay my selfish body down into the grave.

[Mr. 336]

Jesus was (and is!) God's perfect answer to the problem of sin, so there was no way that He could sin and thereby ruin God's salvation plan.
Not to argue, but He was made like us in every way & yet did not sin. Jesus was quite capable of sinning.
Man is not only capable of perfection, but God requires it. The problem is how most people define "perfection". The most widely accepted notion is that the perfection God wants is related to conduct. But that is impossible, so a lot of Christians just throw up their hands & go w/the "sin every day in thought, word, & deed" idea. That's just a cop out, IMO.
I believe the scriptures teach that the perfection God wants (& Jesus taught us about) relates to the motivation of our hearts.
In a deep sense this question relates to our very salvation: What are we saved from? What are we saved to?
The Bible does not teach that we are saved from hell, but that we are saved from our SINS. We are saved TO a relationship w/God. You cannot persist in sin & have a relationship w/God. Sorry folks, it's just not possible.

[Crunchyriff]

336 I believe Jesus was 'capable' of sinning in as much as he had a choice to do so, just like we all; that being said, he was not a slave to sin, like the rest of us were at birth, and this has to do with the things of which I believe are too great for us to understand. He chose not to, because it was NOT His nature. If it WAS His nature to do so, all bets would have been off concerning his birth, death and ressurection.

Now is it possible for the rest of us, if we really we try, to be totally sinless?

Not until we leave this world. There are things we do or omit, on a DAILY basis that cause us to fall short, even as blood-bought believers. To suggest we can do anything BUT while we are here at times is to kid one's self; & Romans 7 would have never been written if what I'm saying isn't true.

I'm not talking about willful sin like sombody consistently cheating on their spouse because they think they can... because they have spritual fire insurance. I'm talking about day to day things we deal with as imperfect humans, believers; and sometimes we soil our spiritual britches, so to speak.

[Mr. 336]

I know to many it is one of the big doctrines, but I don't believe in an inherited sin nature. Sin is definitely universal, but to say that men are born sinful is to say that they had no choice in the matter. And if you can't help it then you are not responsible. God is not going to give you three shoes & tell you to put one on each foot or you're going to hell. He only holds us accountable for what we are capable of.

[MrMike]

But it's the fact that we can't help it that necessitates our dependence upon Jesus. If we were capable of perfection on our own, there would have been no need for His atoning death on our behalf. Thus, another pathway to heaven would have been created: our own self-determination.

[Crunchyriff]

But it's the fact that we can't help it that necessitates our dependence upon Jesus. If we were capable of perfection on our own, there would have been no need for His atoning death on our behalf. Thus, another pathway to heaven would have been created: our own self-determination.

MrMike has slammed the ball out of the park! :biggrin:

[Teleguy]

Correct-O!

In Jesus, we ARE perfect!
If we had the faith to apprehend that, we could move mountains.

[Jaybo]

Here's the scripture I was refering to earlier

Heb 4
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.


Here's an interesting link on the subject:

http://www.letusreason.org/Doct3.htm

[Crunchyriff]

Yes YES, Jaybo!!

It is NOT a sin to be tempted, and it is soley a product of the Devil.

It IS a sin to give into temptation.

[Strat-tastic]

Mr. 336 wrote
I know to many it is one of the big doctrines, but I don't believe in an inherited sin nature. Sin is definitely universal, but to say that men are born sinful is to say that they had no choice in the matter. And if you can't help it then you are not responsible. God is not going to give you three shoes & tell you to put one on each foot or you're going to hell. He only holds us accountable for what we are capable of.

My bible says I am born sinful. That's why, in my opinion, Jesus' salvation is free. If I can't help but be sinful, it's only just and fair that my forgiveness is freely available.

[MadHatter]

My bible says I am born sinful. That's why, in my opinion, Jesus' salvation is free. If I can't help but be sinful, it's only just and fair that my forgiveness is freely available.

never thought of it in quite so simple terms, but I like it...

[Teleguy]

"...You can't keep birds from flying over your head, but you don't have to let them nest in your hair."
-An old pastor of mine


'Course, I buff my head!

[Mr. 336]

My bible says I am born sinful. That's why, in my opinion, Jesus' salvation is free. If I can't help but be sinful, it's only just and fair that my forgiveness is freely available.
I know that a lot of people look at the scriptures & interpret them that way, but this is the first time I've ever heard anybody say that salvation was just & fair. Sounds like God owes it to us. I always thought it was from His mercy.

[Crunchyriff]

My bible says I am born sinful. That's why, in my opinion, Jesus' salvation is free. If I can't help but be sinful, it's only just and fair that my forgiveness is freely available.
I know that a lot of people look at the scriptures & interpret them that way, but this is the first time I've ever heard anybody say that salvation was just & fair. Sounds like God owes it to us. I always thought it was from His mercy.

'Just and fair' is that we all be nailed to the cross. 'Mercy' is that Jesus took that place for each of us- "whosoever will...".

Now I will say that each manufacturer should take responsiblity for their product(s). In this fallen world, I can tell you that it isn't always the case- unless litigation follows.

But God- a Holy and Just God, has indeed taken responsiblity for us, His creation, in that we 'went wrong'; and at the appointed time, God offered mankind a program for the remitttance of sins.

Now just like if you have a "product X" that breaks or falls horribly short: IN this case, you have a manufacturer that stands behind His product, and offers you a repair/replacement program for your life.

But again, like 'product X': YOU alone bear the responsiblity to take the defective product in for repair or replacement...or you can simply choose to let it sit, and squander His (and YOUR) investment.

[TheViking]

.... If I had not accepted Christ, I would probably have ended up on the "heavens least wanted" list. If God was to see me for who I am with all my failures, shortcommings and faults, I would be one a one way express ticket down under (and nah i do not mean Australia), now to the beauty part, When i step before God, Jesus steps in front of me, probably smiling a bit, shaking his head and sighs, oh Dad, this was a wild one, but I paid all his bills too. Aint it grand?

[Mr. 336]

But God does see us for who we are. He sees us more like we really are than we do. In fact, "all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do" (Heb 4:13). If we are submitted to His love, then He sees us as righteous. But if we "say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth" (1 John 1:6).
The Father's first thoughts toward us are not ones of wrath but mercy. We don't need Jesus to "protect" us from the Father, but instead "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (2 Cor 5:19). Our redemption was a joint effort carried out by a coalition of the Big Three Superpowers of the universe. Jesus is not more merciful than the Father.
Man's basic problem is not any kind of inherent defect but instead a deep rooted hatred & rebellion against God: "...men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).
When I fell under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, I was an enemy of the truth. He revealed to my heart my guilt & complete responsibility for my sins. I saw that it was right & even loving that He send me to hell (now THAT should spin your ears: Even in sending a person to hell for all of eternity, God is operating under the principle of what is the best & highest good for that individual) & that in my unrepentant state that is what was the certain outcome of my situation unless I would receive His forgiveness. For God's part, He agreed to accept the suffering & death of His son Jesus as a substitute for my punishment. My part of the bargain was that I would agree to forsake my sin & live now for Him only. He made that easy for me by giving me His Holy Spirit to live in me & help me on a moment by moment basis.
There's a really big word in the Greek NT- "sunantilambanetai", & you'll find it in Romans 8:26 translated "helpeth". It means to take hold of the opposite end, or to co-operate with, or assist. This is exactly what God agrees to do with, in, & for us.
There's really no other way about it. Christianity is the restoration of a broken relationship w/God. This takes two parties to accomplish. God cannot do this in us all by Himself any more than a natural man could by the sheer force of his will become sinless or find God. You can quote scriptures all day long & elaborate on the opinions of great scholars of the Church throughout history & you'll never convince me otherwise. It's Bible.
Now back to the original questions:
As for being able to "make the right choice all the time", that is pretty much a pointless question because once you make a wrong choice you disqualify yourself from the possibility of that ever happening. So far every human I've ever met on earth has failed that one, too.
Regardless, no person ever born could make right choices all the time w/out power from God, Jesus included. To say otherwise is like saying you can have a relationship w/God w/out having a relationship w/God, don't you think? After all, doesn't loving & obeying God fall under the category of "making a right choice"?
And Jesus having a sin nature? He had the nature of His Father, "being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" (Heb 1:3). Jesus had the "ability" to sin but I think He was less likely to sin as a perfectly sane & rational individual would drink gasoline. I guess I would say that He had the potential to sin but I trust Jesus that for Him to commit a sin would be a flat out impossibility.

[Strat-tastic]

Mr. 336 wrote

Strat-tastic wrote:
My bible says I am born sinful. That's why, in my opinion, Jesus' salvation is free. If I can't help but be sinful, it's only just and fair that my forgiveness is freely available.

I know that a lot of people look at the scriptures & interpret them that way, but this is the first time I've ever heard anybody say that salvation was just & fair. Sounds like God owes it to us. I always thought it was from His mercy.

I know what you're saying. I certainly agree that God owes man nothing, He is in debt to no man. Here's my reasoning as to why God is just and fair in offering free salvation.

When I die and go to the judgement, without Christ, God will present a list of all my sins, and ask me to give account for myself. My best defence is that I was born sinful, and therefore could not help but sin. Now, by my limited human logic, I say that's unfair. However, God has solved the problem. He would say, "I know you were born sinful, that's why I have provided a way for you to be righteous, and made it freely available to anyone who will accept it."

I know I'm a fallen man who cannot see the full truth of God yet, but that's the way I look at it. Maybe I'm a theological heretic and my thinking is skewed :dunno

Debate & constructive criticism welcome... :poke:

Mr 336 wrote:Jesus had the "ability" to sin but I think He was less likely to sin as a perfectly sane & rational individual would drink gasoline.

Not thought of it like that before, but it sounds like a good analogy.

[Old Believer]

we talked about it again tonight, wanted to get your opinions on this.

1. do humans have the ability to be perfect? we all have free will to do what we want, do we have the ability to make the right choice all the time?


2. did Jesus, being fully God AND fully human, have a sin nature? and did he have the ability to sin, if he had the desire to?

Question 1. As fallen humans we have no way to be perfect. Yes we do have a free will. We do have the ability to exercise that free will to make the right choices, however, because of our flesh and the influences of Satan, we, when left to our own devices, generally won't make the right choices. That's wher the Holy Spirit comes in. Remember that Paul says that God will always provide a way of escape from temptation, it's up to us to take the way out, or not.

Quesion 2. Since Jesus was fully God and fully man, he faced the same temptations that other men face, however, I believe, that since he was fully God he could not sin. That's just the way I see it.

[dmw]

Only the blood of Christ clothes us in righteousness and makes us perfectly acceptable in the eyes of God. Without that blood, we're still a bunch of naked sinners. What I'm concerned about is being acceptable before God. I'll never meet man's standard of perfection. Men can't agree on what perfection is anyway (thats why there's so many religions in the world). God's standard is the standard set forth by Christ. He has imputed that standard of righteousness to us as Believers by His finished work on the cross.

[Micter]

I know to many it is one of the big doctrines, but I don't believe in an inherited sin nature. Sin is definitely universal, but to say that men are born sinful is to say that they had no choice in the matter. And if you can't help it then you are not responsible. God is not going to give you three shoes & tell you to put one on each foot or you're going to hell. He only holds us accountable for what we are capable of.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Romans 3:23

There is none righteous no not one
Romans 3:10

David says in Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

I could go on and on but I think the Bible is clear that we are born into sin.

[Mr. 336]

If you want to believe it, that's fine. I've done my homework on this & can say w/a great degree of certainty that I do not have to believe that man is born w/a so-called sinful nature & I can still fall w/in the parameters of a "Bible-believing Christian". There are a lot of other well respected teachers & theologians that reject it also, so I know that it is not just some whacked out idea, either.
I believe that sin is universal, & that sin is bondage. But to say that man is born w/a "something" in him that causes him to sin then God cannot condemn him for it & remain a just God. It flies in the face of every scripture that implores man to repent as well.
I would be more than happy to discuss this topic but if your mind is already made up then it's pretty pointless, don't you think?

[Crunchyriff]

I believe that sin is universal, & that sin is bondage. But to say that man is born w/a "something" in him that causes him to sin then God cannot condemn him for it & remain a just God. It flies in the face of every scripture that implores man to repent as well.

Mr336-

Quite respectfully no it doesn't. If anybody understood sin as a man, it is Paul. Romans 7 is quite a testimony to this.

If God cannot condemn a man for sin as you allege, then Jesus wasted a trip here & He went through a horrid death for absolutely nothing.

Your belief flies in the face of every scripture in the OT and NT regarding sin, its penalty & its remission quite frankly; and I would hold any "respected teacher" of this premise highly suspect. It is NOT biblically sound.

Might be a nice notion, but it's not biblical in any way, shape or form.

[Mr. 336]

Really? EVERY scripture? Wow. I guess I just made it all up, then.
So how does it work? How do you see God as being just if he condemns you to hell for something you can't help?

[Kitty]

Hi guys,

I'd like to add my perspective to the mix. Of course, my point of view makes perfect sense to ME. :lol:

What we are "born into" is spiritual death. When Adam and Eve sinned, they DID die, exactly as God warned them they would. But it was spiritual, not physical. And when they made that choice, all who were born afterward were born into that same death.

They made the choice which affected us. Is it fair? No. But if you want "fair" from God, then we'd all be burnt charred spots on the ground by now. God isn't fair according to our puny little understanding of what is fair. But He is just according to His own understanding of justice.

When one accepts Jesus Christ as their savior, it's not merely that all their sin is wiped away and now they start over... it's that they are born into HIS life. No longer spiritually dead but now alive. Still able to choose to commit sin, but no longer a slave to it, because now the Holy Spirit lives within and will continue to convict and perfect.

To sum it up, it's not that we're born with no choice of whether to sin or not. We're born dead. Sin (death) is what we ARE when we enter this world. That is what condemns us to hell.

God was NOT being just in sending His only Son to die so that a way could be made for us to gain His life... He was being immeasurably merciful! There's nothing "just" about it!

Kitty

[Strat-tastic]

Romans 5: 18-19

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

[Micter]

Mr. 336

I'm sorry you see things differently than what is clearly taught in the bible.

Rom 5:12, Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

I do not see how this scripture supports anything but a sin nature.

Think about this if you will. Every toddler eventually learns the art of lying. At some point it wasn't them that did it (you know they blame the dog or someone else for something they in fact did). They aren't taught that. Noone has to instruct them but because of their "SIN NATURE" it is an absolutely natural process. Now I am not wasting my time here. It is essential to understand that sin is part of who we are and that with out the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. God's word is very descriptive of our nature to do wrong and that Christ was the only human being in history to be absolutely blameless (sinless). Because he was the perfect sacrifice we are forgivin of our sins past, present, and future. I believe that without the understanding that we are born into sin salvation is a moot point.

God doesn't send anyone to hell. Man sends himself there by rejecting the sacrifice that Jesus made for all of mankind. God made the way for us but it is our responsibility to accept or reject him. God is a holy God and will not be in the presence of sin. He will parden sin when the blood of Christ covers said sin. It is a matter of fact that Jesus was the ultimate one time sacrifice for the sin of the world. That is very well taught in scripture. If we don't accept the fact that the wages of sin is death (spiritual death, separation from God) then the sacrifice that our loving savior made for us was nothing more than a nice gesture and not the sacrifice that gives eternal life to those who believe.

[Crunchyriff]

Really? EVERY scripture? Wow. I guess I just made it all up, then.
So how does it work? How do you see God as being just if he condemns you to hell for something you can't help?

Glad you asked! It's very simple in solving. But it takes a dimension of WILL here, and it takes stark, naked, accountability.

See, I have somewhat of an addictive personality. There are aspects of my life that were WAY out of my control...ultimately because I LIKED THEM too much; and I failed to take control. In situations like this, the servant can become the master. When this happens, there can be things going on that rule you, because you have allowed it to for so many years. They become of prime importance, whether large or small things.

Take cigarrette/nicotine addiction for example. We all know how powerful a drug it is. BUT the first step of freedom is you truly have to WANT to quit...clear down in the recesses of your soul.

Some things in my life I flat couldn't help, but God COULD. The problem was, I didn't want to give God the keys to the car, and let HIM drive it. Thus, I truly didn't want to be free of those things.

God knows the hearts of man. IF we have a certain proclivity, or addiction, etc (SIN) we are not strong enough to overcome them on our own. This is where the Holy Spirit, will indeed work those things out IN and THROUGH us, and bring success where we could not on our own account.

So God is a gentleman, if you will. HE's not going to rip the keys out of your hand & drive the car if you don't want Him to.

Therefore, he will not set you free of something that you really don't want to overcome. Only when you TRULY want it, will He honor your plea.

IN the meantime, you are serving this "thing" (or things) and you hold it in more importance than God because you won't truly give it up to Him. So no, he will not "condemn you to hell for something you can't help", but you will condemn yourself, for something you willingly serve (other than Him) and submit to.

So this answer to your question is where the rubber meets the road, in no uncertain terms. Trust me, I've lived it.

Praise God for His faithfulness!

[popthree]

deleted

[Mr. 336]

Many years ago I attended a church that was very strong on this doctrine. I gave mental assent to it for some time, but as I reduced my diet of fundamentalist doctrine & commentaries in favor of straight Bible study I found that it was neither clearly taught in the Bible, nor was it my daily experience living w/the Lord.
I remember around this time I received a mailer that included an article on this very thing from a prominent creationist. The question put to him was, if Jesus was "made like us in every way" then how did he bypass having a sin nature?
This was probably in the late '70s or early '80s & the significance of DNA & gene research had just begun to make its way into creation science. Before that it was widely believed that Jesus escaped the sin nature because he had no earthly father, & everybody knew that sin was in the blood & that your blood type was determined by the father (see The Chemistry of the Blood, by M. R. DeHaan). It's too bad that this good theology turned out to be bad biology. We know now that every human's makeup is genetically determined by both parents.
With DeHaan's theory disproved, theologians had to look elsewhere for an explanation to the question.
The idea put forth in this article was that there must have been a special act of creation in Mary's womb to "prevent His receiving any actual genetic inheritance through her". He went on to say, "The body growing in Mary's womb must have been specially created in full perfection, & placed there by the Holy Spirit, in order for it to be free of inherent sin damage." This astonished me. This man had no idea of the implications of what he was saying. It was as if this doctrine were to be protected even at the cost of Jesus' own humanity. So much for the "seed of the woman".
It dawned on me at this time that all these theological gymnastics were being done to explain a moral problem as a genetic of physiological one. As if man had some "defective part" that needed replacing. That is definitely NOT Biblical. Man's problem is rebellion against God; his hatred for God & all that is good & right. He is a criminal before his Creator for no other explanation other than he prefers his own gratification over God's(Jas. 1:14). Sin is a moral state, not a genetic condition. No excuses!
Unfortunately, this doctrine has become an excuse & a hiding place for all manner of sin in the believer's life.
I believe this doctrine also tramples the idea of God's justice. He would not be just if He were to hold us morally accountable for something we could not help. Ezekiel 18:4 says, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Actually, the whole chapter of Ezekiel 18 is a great statement by God concerning personal responsibility. It's pretty clear in this passage that God judges us for our behavior & not anyone elses.
I can understand if some of you want to say that you feel it is taught in the Bible & that it makes sense to you. But even if you are right & I am wrong I would hope that a little grace would be extended. As it stands now, this is not the only active thread on this forum in which a member's views are being scrutinized not in the most sensitive way. I suppose if you want to make this a clique where all the members are in lock-step doctrinally this would be the way to go about it.
I am open to discussion & debate on this or any other doctrine but rigid dogmatism & intractability are certainly NOT from the Spirit of the Lord. That's the kind of thinking that got people labeled as "heretics" & burned at the stake.
Props to Kitty for her post- although I'm sure she probably disagrees w/me, her take on the matter is thoughtful & entirely free of recrimination.

[Micter]

Hey it isn't about anything other than discussing the issue at hand. I and others have given scriptural backing as to what and why we believe that man was born with a sin nature. Believe it or not it was done with love. You can believe what you want and it boils down to this; God sent his son to die for sinners of whom I am chief. Plain and simple.

[stephen]

OK, I have to step in here now.

I'm starting to see this thread go bad, and that is a real shame.

I'm going to be sending some PM's out, and I expect that every one who has participated in this thread needs to watch there inbox, because if I send you a PM regarding this thread, I will be expecting a reply from you.

I've got to say this, as brothers and sisters in the Lord, I've watched this thread go from open and earnest debate, and it has sunk to levels I dont think are becoming for anyone professing Christ as Saviour and Lord of there life. Christ took the hits, the whip and the nails, and never uttered a word other than, "Father, forgive them, cause they dont know what they are doing." He didnt think about himself, He thought about us. He could saiid, "it aint right that you treat Me like this", and he would have been right. But he didnt. Lets all be like that, cause you know what, the term Christian means to be Christ-like. How can we be Christ like? By forgiving eachother, and esteeming others more than yourself.

Oh yes, there is a click here on this forum, and its gonna stay: We are ALL brothers and sisters in the Lord. Thats the click, and its staying.

Watch your Private Messages.

Stephen

[reverbbb]

I must admit, that my theological knowledge and interpretations are grossly inept when compared to the wisdom of many of our forum members.

What I do know, that Mr 336 has provided his perspective on his most recent post. His earlier posts made some significant statements that prompted several responses.

I think that Mr 336's most recent post clarifies his thoughts a bit more clearly than the initial posts. I can see his perspective on this topic. I will not commit to whether he is right or wrong, since I am not as well versed on the subject.

Perhaps the perspectives appear to counter each other and the topic appears to be taking a heated turn. But I don't see any personal attacks - yet. If either side of the fence feels that they need to "sell" their belief to other Christian brothers and sisters, then we are preaching to the wrong crowd. We need to be sharing the message of God's love and eternal life to the people that need to change their lives and know Christ.

Let us not preach to the choir. Open discussion and scriptural references is perfectly natural so that we may all see the lessons of scripture. Some subjects are interesting to decifer, but there is no reason to conclude who has a better argument.

Please carry on, but with a loving perspective.

[Micter]

Sometimes it is difficult to see the intent or inflection of the words typed in a forum situation. There are people hear that don't have a lot of history dealing with each other. In these situations things might not look as they really are. I'll use Crunchy as an example. He and I have been poking fun at each other for a long time. There are things that we share in common and really know quite a bit about each other through various forums we have posted on. I have learned to interpret his typing in a way that I hear the inflection as I would in an audible voice. That isn't the case with most people I interact with in forums. My point is this; If anyone thinks this discussion got out of hand I feel it is very likely that the intent of certain individuals was probably misunderstood.

I am one that has studied the word of God for a lot of years and try to share the knowledge I have if I can. I have been known to be very zelous in my delivery and if I came across as harsh or hard it was not my intent.