Establishing A Systematic System 2 Set the Sound and Levels.

[GuitarKidd]

I have a question regarding if there is a proper way of establishing and setting volumes and mixing instruments and vocals. Here's the story.

Currently at our church we have 4 different soundmen. All four run it differently and audibly you can tell the difference. 2 of them run it in a way that is very Piano driven and heavy. Guitars and bass are almost non-existent most of the time. The other 2 have a good ear for setting the sound.

I have played trumpet for about 20 years. I have been involved in many different groups jazz, concert, church. I have been playing guitar now for about 2 1/2 years and play at church. Recently I was highered on part time to help in many areas and one of them is music/P&W.

I have been talking with our ministry director who leads P&W twice a month and is a dynamic musician and pianist. I mentioned that we should have systematic way to setup and establish the sound. My suggestion comes from my experience. I suggested that we start off this way...

1. Drums - Electric Rolands
2. Bass guitar
3. Acoustic/Rhythm Guitar
04. Piano
5. Lead Guitar/Rhythm
6. P&W leader
7. P&W team

Should wedo something like this so that we can make sure that when sound is established we can the same levels (hopefully) all the time no matter the who the sound guy is...

[Crossroadsguitar]

A good way to get close is to dial in the sound that you want, and use masking tape to indicate on the board where the optiomal sound is. Conditions vary from night to night, but this will give the different soundmen a starting place.

Peace,
Jason

[Teleguy]

I agree.
Marking the board's settings and using assigned channels will give a workable base line, that then can be tweaked when there are guest musicians and specials.
We also mark the EQ panel and power amp settings.

I think all that ever changes is the soundman can ride gain on an especially loud solo voice, and change the monitors as requested BY THE LEADER only.

[Crunchyriff]

The same mics should be used for the same duties every Sunday. Do you have a mix of mics or one type for everything?

ie: IF you have a mix of different make and model mics (SM58's, 57's; maybe a few AKG's, Beyer, AT's or what have you), it is crucial that those particular mics are used for the same duties every Sunday once you have the settings marked as has been rightly suggested.

What you are trying to do here as has been demonstrated so far, is narrow the gap of inconsistency as much as possible. So in this light, no matter who is running the board on Sunday, all the soundman have to be on the same page for this to work. If you have a roster of a "one-mic fits all" mics (one brand, one model for everything), this narrows the gap even further.

BUt if you DO have a mixture of mics up there, all the soundmen must stick to the formula.

Let's say you have for example, some SM58's, Beta 87a's, and 57's; (not even going to throw in other brands here)

I'm not going to say what YOU'D pick, but if I had to pick, the 87a's would go to the worship team singers- and if you don't have enough for all of them, they'd go to the leader and strongest singers. Then deal out the 58's, then 57's for stage duty.

Then 'Ring out' the sanctuary, then set and mark all levels in a general soundcheck. Not only have a stage plot, but ALSO an assigned mic roster.

If this is adhered to by all 4 soundmen, you've gone a along way to narrow the 'OOPS factor' gap considerably. Each soundman can still have "their mix" per se' on a given Sunday, and all 4 of their jobs will be easier.

But if Somebody decides "phooey on the mic assigments, I want to use 'X' on Sister Hoosus because I want to..." all bets are off.

One more thing comes to mind. Many novice, non-pro "soundman" types have this fetish for headphones. I say the more inexperienced the soundman, the more effort you should put into hiding them from him or her. They need to be using their ears in the house. Not rely on a pair of cans. Those are for nitpicking/isolating & weeding out critical things in a given submix or individual channel; but do nothing towards establishing the mix as a whole, in the house itself.

[Barry]

Good, solid ideas all. I might suggest a free "church sound" magazine that might be at least interesting to anyone reading this, particularly if they're involved in audio at their church. Please go to this URL for detail:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/church/

[MadHatter]

man...finding good sound people is always tough...
we have 4 sound people in our church... two of them take the job very seriously and come out to the middle of the sanctuary numerous times to see how the sound is...
the other two seem to put very little effort into it and have attitudes that show they know everything and everyone else knows nothing...
it makes it very hard to do our job on stage when we have to ask 10 times for more monitors for the vocals and so forth

but sound people are generally underappreaciated, when things sound bad it's thier fault...when it sounds good it's the band....lol

I try to remember to encourage them daily...but I've been slacking lately...gonna make sure I talk to them this sunday

[Teleguy]

Bardani,
Thanks for that link.

And yes, MadHatter, we should remember to thank the sound people. there's sure no glory in being the sound man at a church.
Thanks for the reminder. :ILY

[Ascension]

And yes, MadHatter, we should remember to thank the sound people. there's sure no glory in being the sound man at a church.
Thanks for the reminder.
I agree teleguy . We guitarist have to remember it`s tha soundguy who controlls if we are HEARD out front or not :innocent ! Now remember boys and girls tis not a good idea [-X ta torque off tha soundguy ;) !!

[Kitty]

Sorry guys, I completely disagree.

I am extremely opposed to marking levels and settings on the sound board. I am much more in favor of solid training.

When you mark the levels, you're sending a message to the less experienced sound people that all they have to do is set the levels visually and everything will be OK. You're sending a message to the more experienced sound people that their art, skill and experience is of no value.

I will, however, second the idea of having the same types of mic used for the same applications every week, and maybe even assigning board channels for drums, vocal, guitars, keys, etc. so that the same channel is used each week for the same type of input. But this is only to speed up the process of setting levels for rehearsal. Theoretically, the attenuation, EQ, monitor levels, etc. would be fairly close from week to week, but only if the same person is playing the same instrument every week.

But marking the levels on the sound board will ensure mediocrity forever.

Instead, train your people to LISTEN, and train them what they're listening FOR. Inspire them to continually hone their skill and to mentor and support one another in it.

As far as a system for setting levels each week, different experienced sound people will each have their own preferred methods, so perhaps the person who oversees the sound team should sit down with all the sound engineers and the worship leader(s), and they should hammer out a procedure everyone can live with. Yes, all the sound engineers should be included in this, even though that will make the meeting a long one. But it demonstrates that their input is valued and gives them ownership of the results.

If egos would prevent the success of this, then maybe establishing a sound check procedure isn't the first thing you should address.

Kitty

[Teleguy]

Sorry guys, I completely disagree...But marking the levels on the sound board will ensure mediocrity forever.

Instead, train your people to LISTEN, and train them what they're listening FOR. Inspire them to continually hone their skill...
If egos would prevent the success of this, then maybe establishing a sound check procedure isn't the first thing you should address.

Kitty

Um...
But...
Well, y'know...

Hmmmm....

You may be right!
Gads!

You mean we're not supposed to be doing an AMATUER level job for Christ?
:oops:

[Crunchyriff]

Sorry guys, I completely disagree.

I am extremely opposed to marking levels and settings on the sound board. I am much more in favor of solid training.

When you mark the levels, you're sending a message to the less experienced sound people that all they have to do is set the levels visually and everything will be OK. You're sending a message to the more experienced sound people that their art, skill and experience is of no value.

Unfortunately Kitty, your premise is not real-world applicable across the board so to speak. Put it this way- If you & I both had our way, every church would have trained soundmen, & every 'soundman to-be' would be trained before putting their mitts on the console. (har!)

Unfortunately, due to budgets, unwillingness to train or be trained; who you have to work with, etc; this is always going to be an issue with MANY churches.

That being said, there isn't one pro soundman I know in the entertainment biz who DOESN'T mark settings on tape or what have you underneath the faders and what not. Those marks, after all, are a 'guide' to a ballpark setting. You know, then 'season to taste'. :grin:

Look, I'm a pro singer and guitarist. If, for the sake of discussion, I put little marks on my amp settings to keep me somewhat dialed-in; so if roadies, etc and general handling & transport messes up all my settings I can get back in the ballpark without hassle and time wasting tweaks; does that make me less professional & uncaring- maybe a bit mercenary?

Hardly. I fact I could say it makes me the opposite. It's one of those things we do to help insure some degree of consistency, and fend off excess sound issues.

And your last sentece I quoted there, well sis, I don't think I'd take that message personally as an affront if I WERE the FOH cat. I'd still fine-tune the sys...

But I hear the heart of what you are saying, sister. O:)

[Crossroadsguitar]

Sound is such a difficult issue. We found the best results when we hired professional soundmen to set up the board, offer basic tranning, and tape our basic levels. Our group has the same worship leaders every week and varying sound men. I agree that training would be best, but that level of discipleship has been hard to come by. This gets us close every week to the levels that we need and keeps the tone consistant (if a bit bland.)

Jason

[Brian]

Sound is a difficult issue, and I'm probably the worst here at venting over it. For over 7 years I was in a local band doing a lot of well-paying private & corporate parties, service clubs and civic functions; small to large rooms, a huge convention center, and outdoors. Though we had some turnover in players over the years we had a sound tech as a permanent member of the band that helped ensure a consistent sound for every date. He was paid a full cut and worth every penny. He came to almost every rehearsal, had a great ear and supported each of us very well, both with a good consistent sound and individual and group coaching free of ego. It spoiled me forever. He didn't mark the board because each date was a different room.

I tend to agree with Kitty... in my IT (analyst, management) and semi-pro music careers, I've found that excellence comes with commitment and training.

Don't overlook the role leadership plays. The band I mentioned above had an excellent "leader". I've had several discussions with my Worship team leaders about Servant Leadership (for the leader and each member). It starts with knowing that Servant Leaders are most concerned with each of their team members being successful, not self glorification. Then believing virtually everyone wants to be a contributor to a winning team, wants to be appreciated for their contribution, and that nobody wants to do a bad job. They don't need to be the most proficient member of the team, but they try to find out what motivates members, empower them, uphold a commitment to excellence, and of course understand resource utilization. They celebrate the team's success and coach improvement. It doesn't take a lot of money and I've seen it work in both professional and volunteer organizations.

[Kitty]

You mean we're not supposed to be doing an AMATUER level job for Christ?

(ha, ha -- amateur "level")

Teleguy, I have nothing against amateurs... amateurs make great sound people! It's the ones who cannot learn or improve (or admit mistakes) that I'd just as soon find themselves being led to join another ministry in the church. :-)

I say do your level best, whatever that level is, because the Lord finds that pleasing in His sight. But still - be teachable and be someone others can work with instead of butt heads with all the time.

Kitty

[Kitty]

Unfortunately Kitty, your premise is not real-world applicable across the board so to speak. Put it this way- If you & I both had our way, every church would have trained soundmen, & every 'soundman to-be' would be trained before putting their mitts on the console. (har!)

Unfortunately, due to budgets, unwillingness to train or be trained; who you have to work with, etc; this is always going to be an issue with MANY churches.

Actually, I believe it is applicable in the real world. Not 100%, but nothing ever is.

Let's consider:

If you've got a small church with zero budget, you've most likely also got a small sound system, and the requirements for achieving "acceptable" sound are pretty low. Ok, you're not going to pay to send your one sound guy to a seminar in Nashville, but there are plenty of free resources for advice and training. At the very least, there is another church in town who probably has some experienced sound people who would be happy to come over and give of their time to help you improve your sound. (Just be sure you hear one of their services first to see if their sound is a nightmare or not.)

In the larger churches with larger budgets and more complicated sound systems, you have to do training first anyway just so they know their way around the booth to begin with.

Training is the key, not marking the board. Yes, there is going to be a season when things sound not-so-good while the sound team is learning what to listen for and how to get what they want. They're going to have some terrible Sundays. But they WILL surpass the skill level they would ever be able to attain by following the marks on the board.

If, for the sake of discussion, I put little marks on my amp settings to keep me somewhat dialed-in; so if roadies, etc and general handling & transport messes up all my settings I can get back in the ballpark without hassle and time wasting tweaks; does that make me less professional & uncaring- maybe a bit mercenary?

Of course not, but this isn't what we're talking about. This is always you playing your guitar on your amp, and YOU understand that those are ballpark settings. You're going to tweak them in every venue you play, because you've learned what the heck you're doing. But you're not having some "professional" sound person mark your amp for you and tell you "set it here."

But that's what we tell church sound people all the time when we mark the board.

Ok, ok... I'll relent if it's made clear to the sound team that these are just ballpark, get you started so at least we can get on with rehearsal type settings. You still MUST get them some training, and you don't necessarily have to pay a pile of money to do that.

[As a side note: in order for training to be effective, the trainee first has to accept that they might actually need to improve.]

Getting back to the original poster, you said:
Should we do something like this so that we can make sure that when sound is established we can the same levels (hopefully) all the time no matter the who the sound guy is...

I just want to mention that while there does need to be some amount of consistency in your overall procedures and mix from week to week, also be aware that running sound is both science AND art. No two highly experienced and talented professional sound operators are going to do things the same way. If you try to force all your sound people to be exactly alike, you're going to miss out on some of the richness of the artistry, and possibly discourage them from learning and improving.

Kitty

[MrMike]

The risk you run is having guys run sound with their eyes rather than their ears. If something isn't sounding right and you ask them to adjust, they'll say, "But that's where it's supposed to be set!". Their perception of what it sounds like is based on where the knobs and sliders are, not on what they're hearing. With new guys, it's important that they understand what you mean by a "ballpark" setting, and that the rules are not hard and fast. I think that one of the hardest things to teach anybody is to find out what is feeding back QUICKLY. I can't begin to guess how many times I've been on the platform and heard something feeding back, only to look up at the sound guy and see that he is either a.) talking to somebody and completely oblivious to the fact that there is an incredibly annoying and/or painful noise in the monitor system, or b.) looking at the board with his eyebrows touching each other. This almost invariably happens when one of the vocalists, in the midst of getting blessed, points his/her microphone capsule directly into one of the wedges, or when the worship leader swings his boom stand around out of his way, leaving his microphone pointed directly into his HotSpot. :banghead :soapbox

[Crunchyriff]

Ok, ok... I'll relent if it's made clear to the sound team that these are just ballpark, get you started so at least we can get on with rehearsal type settings.

Bingo! I think what is misinterpreted on this thread is that you set every thing exactly to the hash marks and touch nothing, ever. That just isn't realistic. This is just 'ballpark' settings. There are so many variables to live sound, that, there HAS to be constant monitoring and adjustments, or we wouldn't NEED soundmen in the first place, would we? :mrgreen:

Back to my analogy about marking settings on guitar amps- even these get changed, usually as much as the venue changes. every room is different. Yet the variance is usually only slight to moderate. If you have PA system that runs in the same bldg all the time, you wil get differences week to week. Maybe not drastic ones, but differences nonetheless.

[Teleguy]

I think part of the problem is the school systems here in America.

If anybody seems to have "techie" tendencies we put them in the AV dept.

When they show up at church they assume there's an AV dept they can plug into.

Musicians are trained. Sound people should be too. Don't relent too fast there sister, your points are well taken.

[Crunchyriff]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. (but that's ok... I usually don't understand me, either- har!)

Kitty's strong point of someone qualified to do so IS the top answer to the $65,000 question. Training is not just the KEY, it is the foundation!

I think all wanna-be soundmen, those that wish to serve in this capacity SHOULD be trained, period. I have no qualms about that whatsoever. If I had it my way: prospective soundmen not only have to furnish some references of their skills, but would also have pass an audition, just like another musician would. Soundmen are musicians of sorts whether they know it or not, and whether they can actually PLAY an instrument or not. They are "sonic arrangers and organizers", if you will. :lol:

So you see, we are on the same page. We all know what it REALLY takes here to get the job done.

But what I'm trying to say is that my or your utopian vision of "how to get the best mix for all churches" while on this imperfect globe, well, it's just not going to happen in general; therfore, if this particular church decides they can't or won't send someone to be trained, it comes back to the basic premise of the question of the thread itself.

And it's basically "how can a you establish a systematic system to set levels?" Well, aside from what we ALL would want (and demand if we were in the position to do so): TRAINED soundmen; there are some other measures that can be taken to help improve the situation.

ON a personal note, I can be a very demanding perfectionist when it comes to my craft & art. That being said, I've gotta temper that with the fact that Jesus chose some people, for lack of a better phrase, "VERY lacking" in a number of areas to work with Him while on this earth (and he didn't send them off to the temple to train them first)- and in a broader sense, he chose ME, in spite of my flaws and sin and said "I not only LOVE this guy, but I'm going to use him in spite of his flaws". That still blows me away...

And so, while I believe that I need to give more to HIM than I ever did as a musician when I served MYSELF; I also know that God isn't expecting perfection in my performance here, but he expects me to use what and who he gives me to work with...and do my best- from my heart. Quite often what WE think in our minds will please God the most, misses the mark. Mary and Martha are a prime example.

Teleguy- your first sentence is so true on a number of levels...

By the way, I love each and every one of you very much and am thankful for you all here; and wish and pray that you all have a wonderful NEW YEAR!!

[prscustom24]

This is where we should wish for some Baptist to chime in and reveal how they do it. Without exception, in every Baptist place of worship I've experienced the sound is lush, perfectly balanced, and how they do it is clearly a trade secret. :angel

[Barry]

Bardani,
Thanks for that link.

You're welcome.

One (or 2) more thing(s) about marking the settings...

For smaller churches, and those not really doing much more than clipping a lapel mic on the pastor or having one or two hand-helds up front, there should be no real need to change settings at all. Some smaller churches I know of simply set it, leave it and everyone who uses it learns how far away to be from it when they're speaking. Many don't even have a real need to use sound systems for music. Don't forget, not all churches have a drum kit and electric guitars up there during services. I've been involved with a few such churches over the years.

On a grander scale, let's say you have a large sanctuary with a capacity for up to 2000 or more people. Obviously, there's a need to amplify just about anything up front so it can be heard. There will be EQ issues, dead spots and areas that might be prone to echo echo. Such churches might be best off hiring a pro to come in with a white/pink noise generator to set the EQ, compression and other parameters. Such settings normally should not be changed in a fixed setting. This is one area where marking would be a wonderful idea, and not just marking, but maybe even taking pictures. It would be disasterous if a volunteer with good intentions but not much practical knowledge filled in some day, found him or herself in a situation where some feedback started happening, then started tweaking all those settings when all they had to do in reality was turn down the gain to a monitor mix that someone with an equal amount of inexperience and knowledge had tweaked earlier. The Domino Effect happens just as much as Murphy's Law does, and both can apply with as much affect. In the sound world, they can wreck and obliterate what would otherwise be a great worship experience.

Again, that link I posted earlier would benefit any church that has a volunteer-based sound crew. Subscribe to the mag.

Just as a side note, I've done technical contracting at one of the largest theme parks in the country. In the areas I was in, whenever people with little experience might be dealing with attraction sound, optimum settings are marked. It's really the best route to take when it's possible something might get bumped inadvertantly when shuffling or working on equipment. It allows a quick return to "known good" settings.

Of course, this is just in my experience. YMMV.

[Crunchyriff]

This is where we should wish for some Baptist to chime in and reveal how they do it. Without exception, in every Baptist place of worship I've experienced the sound is lush, perfectly balanced, and how they do it is clearly a trade secret. :angel

it's the water.

[UncleMarker]

This is where we should wish for some Baptist to chime in and reveal how they do it. Without exception, in every Baptist place of worship I've experienced the sound is lush, perfectly balanced, and how they do it is clearly a trade secret. :angel

I do love and appreciate our sound guy, but there is at least one Baptist church where this is not always true! :lol: