A.D. 70, Persecution, and Revelation

[dmw]

First of all, I admit I've been a bit negative in some of my posts here, and I do sincerely apologize for that. I also will admit that the subject matter in this thread is controversial with many Christians. I hope it is not a source of controversy here, but a learning experience. I am constantly seeking to learn the truth about the Scriptures, and I believe that a more complete knowledge of end-time events is very important. I welcome any input or correction. Here goes...

I have read that about 1,100,000 Jews were killed during the siege of Jerusalem which finalized in A.D. 70, not including those killed in other areas of Palestine. The actual revolt by the Jews against Roman rule began around A.D. 66. Does anyone have information to the contrary? This information was sourced from writings of Josephus.

Are folks here aware of a later second revolt by the Jews against the Roman Empire? According to the book, "The Sacred Chain - A History of the Jews" by author Norman F. Cantor, there was another one which began about A.D. 132. At that time there were 1.3 million Jews still living as citizens of the Roman Empire, but by A.D. 135 there were only about 650,000, meaning that that many were killed during that short time period, because they had once again revolted against Roman rule.

The following are relative to what I understand to be a view of scripture called preterism:

(1) It is my understanding that the preterist view is that Revelation is limited to the persecutions of the first century church by the Romans; and that Matthew 24 is believed to be fulfilled as of A.D.70. (If that is not accurate, please correct me.)
(2) It is my understanding that preterists view Revelation as descriptive of the persecutions of Christians under Nero or Domitian (or some might expand that to include numerous Roman emperors) in the first century. (If that is not accurate, please correct me.)
(3) Assuming that the previous statements are correct, how can it be possible that Revelation refers to only the first century church's persecution when it was the Jews who were seemingly the ones who were persecuted most severly by the Romans at that stage of history? I am aware of the historical fact, for example, that Christianity was outlawed, so to speak, by Roman Emperor Domitian, because Christians would not go along with the State religion of emperor worship; and I am aware that Emperor Nero persecuted those who believed that Christ was Messiah, mostly by the urging of the Jews in opposition to the spread of Christianity. However, and again, if the Book of Revelation is only concerned with the persecution of the early church, I fail to see its full relevance. We can read plenty about persecutions of the church in the Book of Acts and in Paul's epistles, for example. Revelation does not add much in that regard if it is limited to the end of the first century. As we know, the Church has been persecuted for nearly 2,000 years now. And, the Roman Empire was not destroyed by God in the way that an early first century interpretation implies. In fact that some would argue that the Roman influence continues today (that's another subject).

What is interesting, at least to me, is that by A.D. 300 Christians accounted for 25% of the Roman Empire's population. This became so in spite of the fact that for most of the time, since the Christian Church's inception, Christianity was not an approved religion of the Roman state. By A.D. 300 Jews accounted for only 5% of the population. When Roman Emperor Constantine coverted to Christianity in A.D. 312 it became advantageous to convert to the Faith. For example, a Christian was more likely to be hired by the government or his business was more likely to receive preference.

I've said all of the above to say that I believe that the Book of Revelation is mostly a futuristic Book. It calls itself a prophecy, so to speak. There is a relevant message to the first century church in Revelation, that is certain. But, for the most part, I believe it is yet to be fulfilled. There is to be a time in history unlike any that the human race has ever seen, and especially so when the full wrath of God is released unbridled upon the Earth. I also compare this to the Thessalonians epistles which also has a discussion a future time when a "man of lawlessness" be revealed. This is to happen prior to Christ's return, and these epistles do not make the implication that this is two thousand years prior to His return, but soon before. (A more thorough discussion of the Thessalonian epistles would be required to support that even more so.)

If anyone would like to comment or add to this discussion, please do. Thanks.

[Pearly Gator]

Luke 21:24b, "...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

I agree. Revelation is a book of the future. Christ addresses the church in the first three chapters. After that, the church is not mentioned again. The chapters on the seven churches could mean the completion of the church age and could be consecutive or concurrent. Still, the accounts of chapters 1-3 are something the church today should heed.

It's been a while since I've read Josephus so, I don't know about third century killing of Jews by Romans. We do know that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans. When the temple was burned up, the gold in the temple melted into the cracks of the foundation. In recovering the gold, the Romans tore it up leaving not one stone left upon another, exactly as Jesus foretold.

Since Pentecost, God's attention has been turned totally upon the church. When the church age is over, God will once again turn His complete attention upon the Jews and Israel. (Isaiah 1:18) The seventieth week of Daniel is that seven year period, after which The Lion of the tribe of Judah returns to earth to destroy all sinful men, bind Satan and to rule the world for 1000 years.

An ancient prophetic teacing called "preterism" held that all Bible prophecy had already been fulfilled by A.D. 70 - and many mainstream churches today still teach this mistaken philosophy and fail to warn believers and non-believers alike of the latter days about to unfold.

Antichrist comes on the scene in Daniel's 70th week. Daniel 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week* he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

PG

[Mr. 336]

A long time ago I heard a pastor & scholar (a real one, too! Actually taught theology at Westmont College in Santa Barbara, Ca.!) say something that has stuck w/me all these years:
The book is about the revelation of Jesus Christ, NOT the future.
With that, I'll say that I think it is a very strong possibility that the Church at Large today has NO IDEA what the bulk of that book is about.
I don't mean to come off harsh, but I don't waste a great deal of energy on eschatology. There are more pressing things at hand: The Suffering Church, for instance. Taking the Gospel to the unreached parts of the globe, too. Right down to "loving your neighbor". Trying to analyze different end times scenarios comes in a distant last place.
But don't let me spoil the fun. Proceed! ;)

[Pearly Gator]

Revelation 19:10b, "...worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

The events in Revelation have not yet happened. Antichrist has not set himself up as God on earth, the oceans have not turned to blood, 2/3 of humanity have not been killed by disasters. Of course, I don't think we need to look for Antichrist under every rock. We are to be like the Watchman, watching the times and season. The study of prophecy can be an excellent witnessing tool to our neighbors. We must view current events in the light of scripture, not the other way around. Many non-Christians came to Christian churches after 9/11 out of fear and interest that we may be entering the end of days. Our church was packed out for months afterwards.

Much of what Jesus taught was future. That is what sets Him apart from all other gods. Jeremiah, Daniel, Joel, Zechariah and Ezekiel are great books to reinforce the study of Revelation. When doing so, remember that Revelation is written in a style that would be easy to understand by the contemporary Jewish people.

Gary

[dmw]

I'm with PG.

Mr. 336, I must study this as I'm enrolled in a Bible college class on the Book of Revelation. The more the professor teaches, the more I get confirmation that he is wrong. He has made the blanket statement that God is finished with the Jews. That's what much of this comes down to, actually. There is a veiled antisemitism across much of the Church. It is not obvious at all. End-times teaching is extremely important. I know that some contend that to be concerned about what happens in the end makes us not be concerned about the here and now. I'm not saying you feel that way, but many do. If you believe and know that judgment is coming then you should have more incentive to tell others about the Lord.

In Leonard Ravenhill's book, "Why Revival Tarries," he mentioned that if Christians really believed that souls would be eternally damned to punishment and separation from God, then they would be more active in proclaiming the Gospel. Something to think about.

[dmw]

Mr. 336:

One more point...

God, the Father, turned over the scroll to Christ. What was the scroll? The history of the world as recorded by God before it ever occurred. Who was worthy to take the seals from the scroll and reveal what was written therein? Jesus Christ. That's why the Book is a revelation of Jesus Christ as He was the Revealer; and, He had the Angel take what had been revealed to Him and give it to John. Contained in the scroll was the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Yes, Christ was revealed, but also revealed was the future events of the world and the role(s) of the Faithful. So, Revelation describes the future, but it also contains much more which is pertinent to previous and present (and possibly future) generations of Believers.

[Pearly Gator]

{snip}... I'm enrolled in a Bible college class on the Book of Revelation. The more the professor teaches, the more I get confirmation that he is wrong. He has made the blanket statement that God is finished with the Jews. That's what much of this comes down to, actually. There is a veiled antisemitism across much of the Church. It is not obvious at all.

If God is finished with the Jews, ask your prof when Romans 11:26 and Daniel's 70th week were fulfilled. Tell him Pearly Gator want to know. ;) Romans 11:26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

PG

[dmw]

Romans Chapter 11 is often subject to various interpretations. The misinterpretation which you referred to is often supported by this scripture reference:

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

To compare the two is to compare "apples and oranges." In Galations Paul in saying that all persons must come to God and obtain salvation through Jesus Christ. However, this is not a dismissal or removal of the Jew. And I am not trying to imply that the Jews get a "free pass" here, although we Gentiles were given a "gift certificate" via the finished work of Christ. I have said this before to some folks and received blank stares in return, but we had better be glad that our God is not a fickle God, or where would any of us be? He has made certain promises, or covenants, and I believe He will keep on keeping them; but He will do so as He has planned to do so, not as we think He should do so.

[Mr. 336]

dmw- If you're going to quote Ravernhill, I won't argue w/ANYTHING you have to sayLOL
(He's one of my favorite 20th century preachers!)
I just felt like saying something because it seems like prophecy (& Revelation in particular) is one of the most obscure areas in the Bible, yet people are so dogmatic about it.
The part about the scroll containing the "history of the world as recorded by God before it ever occurred": That's a pretty specific description of something that is not explained as such in the Scripture. How did you come up w/that? I don't see it defined that way anywhere in Rev.
And I really am interested, not trying to argue.

[ptrallan01]

Revelation 19:10b, "...worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Much of what Jesus taught was future. That is what sets Him apart from all other gods. Jeremiah, Daniel, Joel, Zechariah and Ezekiel are great books to reinforce the study of Revelation. When doing so, remember that Revelation is written in a style that would be easy to understand by the contemporary Jewish people.

Gary

Good basis, I would add a study of Genesis chapters 3, 6, 9 and 12, Dueteronomy, Isaiah, Matthew, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians 1st timothy 4:1-5, and 2nd timothy 3. A complete study of these in correlation with the Book of Revelation will yield a more clear understanding of what God is saying but reading and interpreting Revelation without them will yield the confusion often found when something is considered out of context.

The scroll that is handed to Jesus in Revelation 5 has variously been interpreted as the book of life and or the "title deed" to the universe. Whichever or both once He starts opening it watch out!!!

[stephen]

my humble 2 cents: Those that ascribe Revelation to a preterist view, often overlook the fact, that Revelation was written by John "the aged" while in excile on Pathmos, around 90 ad, that would put it 20 years after the preterist assumption, and would make what John is talking about a history lesson, not prophecy.

I dont recall seeing flying scorpions with metal breastplates, with stingers that caused agony for months when they stung someone, neither do I recall the evil horde of riders, whose horses snorted sulfer and smoke, and killed millions of people with fire, ever happening.

I believe that when Jesus arose from the dead, the times of the gentiles had begun. When the church is removed, and anti-christ begins his reign, the ends of the times of the gentiles has taken place, and the main thrust of Christ's redemption is focused on the people of promise, the Jews. Jew's acan have salvation now, but I believe they are going to come to the faith in large numbers during these final 7 years of the world as we know it.

[dmw]

Rev 5:1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"
Rev 5:3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
Rev 5:4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
Rev 5:5 and one of the elders *said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
Rev 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they *sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Here's an OT reference to a "sealed book":

Isa 29:11 The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, "Please read this," he will say, "I cannot, for it is sealed."

Only Christ was worthy to remove the seals and reveal what was written. What is the significance of the 7 seals? That means it was a completely secure book and it was revealed for the first time to Christ alone.


Mr. 336,

I don't see your comments are being argumentative at all. Admittedly my statement about the scroll containing the "history of the world" is somewhat my parroting something that a Bible college professor said. (Funny I should quote him on that and when I disagree with other things he's taught on the subject. However, I love the man and have had other classes with him, and have learned quite alot.) It can't be found in a single verse, as you said. And, in retrospect, a better phrase would have been to describe the scroll as representative of God's pre-ordained plan for mankind. Here's how I arrive at that conclusion:

(1) I believe that the Bible, while it does not mention every small detail of world events, does pan the whole of world history, from the first man, Adam, to present, and beyond.
(2) God, in the plural (Elohim) pre-existed at the foundation of the world, as the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit. ("And God (Elohim) said, "Let us make man in our own image.")
(3) The Book of Revelation is full of Old Testament references and imagery, beginning with Genesis. I could mention many, but to give you one that is in the first book of the Bible and the last book of the Bible, consider the term "tree of life." You can find others from the Pentetuch, from Psalms, and from the Prophets, etc. That is a primary reason I believe that Revelation looks back, yet looks forward into the future. Those who were contemporaries of John were familiar with the terms and OT references. That gave them an image how God was panning what His people had experienced in the past, and this was giving them insight into the future. To put it simply, God's people have been through alot through the ages, but in Christ, the Lamb of God (speaking to those first century believers and those who read the Book today, there is victory.
(4) From the foundation of the world God knew that He was going to work through various men and covenants and finally up to and through the Church.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Eph 1:8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
Eph 1:10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

That term "foundation of the world" means what it says. God knew before His plan was put into action. I'm not meaning to get into predestination territory. That's another subject. (I'm not a Calvinist.) I'm just referring to foreknowledge. I believe the scroll had God's recorded foreknowledge of His eternal plan. The above says that all things are summarized in Chirst. Again, Who was worthy? Christ.

I believe you must compare scripture with scripture to gain full meanings of Bible subject matter. Sometimes context of a single passage or verse is not enough. I can quickly paint myself into a corner on this. There's so many scriptures in other parts of the Bible I could quote that have counterparts in Revelation that it would take a post way too long for the purposes of a general discussion. And the time involved would be unreal. And then I'd have to comment on each of them. Plus many folks may not really be so generally interested in the subject. I also should say, I don't claim to have a lock on the Book of Revelation.

Anyhow, I hope I've at least almost explained this to your satisfaction.

John Walvoord once said that "there are fifty approaches to interpeting Revelation, and forty-nine of them must be wrong." It's possible that all fifty are wrong. We may all get some surprises.

Why did God give us such a book to deal with? Probably to keep us humble. None of us know everything that is in God's plan. Right now only He and Jesus Christ know everything.

[Pearly Gator]

We can study Revelation untill Christ returns and not understand it completely. It sure makes for a lively Bible study! We all share a love of Christ and no one is going be talking down to anyone else for having a differing opinion. (As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.)

Having said that, perhaps the scroll is not the focus of Revelation 5. Note verse 4 where John weeps. It reminds me of how lost and lonely we were before finding Jesus. Nothing was 'worthy', not booze, drugs, relationships or philosophy. Nothing can fill that void in your heart built for worshipping God but God Himself. The elder reassures John saying, "Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered..."
Because He lived on earth 2,000 yrs ago and died to pay the ultimate penalty for our sin, we are made the righteousness of God. Because Jesus conquered death, hell and the grave. The way to God was opened to us! Because He was slain, we have been made a kingdom and priests and we shall reign with Him!

As we meditate on these verses, can we do anything other than worship Him? He alone is worthy of our praise. Let us join the living creatures and elders and fall on our faces before Him crying out with a loud voice Worthy is the Lamb!

PG

[Mr. 336]

It's definitely an exciting book to read, & this thread has given me the opportunity to go over it again & be blessed.
I think a straightforward reading of that passage tells us that the scroll contains God's sentence of judgment on the earth & His control over the events that bring about the establishment of Christ as King over all the earth. And because Christ suffered & died He is counted worthy to open (or pronounce, or execute) that judgment.
In verse 9 the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders say, "You are worthy to take the scroll & to open its seals, because you were slain, & with your blood you purchased men for God..."

[GuitarKidd]

my humble 2 cents: Those that ascribe Revelation to a preterist view, often overlook the fact, that Revelation was written by John "the aged" while in excile on Pathmos, around 90 ad, that would put it 20 years after the preterist assumption, and would make what John is talking about a history lesson, not prophecy.

[quote]

Yes you are correct, the date of Authorship of Revelation is crucial to properly interpreting and understanding Revelation. Post 70AD Authorship and the preterist idea is in vain. A pre 70AD authorship would mean that those events that took place in and around 70AD have much to offer when considering how and when the events spoken in Matt 23 & 24 and of Revelation.

So when was it written? Well the idea that Revelation was written around 90AD comes from one single quote from Irenaeus..

[quote]"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the Revelation. For (‘he’ [John?] or ‘it’ [Revelation?]) was seen . . . towards the end of Domitian’s reign." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3)

Some scholars believe that the last sentence is a little vague in what Irenaeus was referring to. What was seen? John, or the Revelation?

Regardless, the above quote is really the only testimony to a post 70AD authorship.

Unfortunately John does not say when he wrote the letter. However there are some "time stamps" than allude to when the book was written.

First when one is considering interpreting the book, one must take into account audience relevance. To whom was John literally writting to. Who were the readers. That question is obvious as he was writting to 7 churches that literally existed. It would be of no sense to write something obscure to the audience he was writting to in the first place. It is my opinion that the first century church new exactly what John was writting about. Why is that. To understand Revelation, one must understand the type of literary used. John and even Christ, used Apocalyptic language taken directly from the OT when referring to future events. The metaphor and ellegory used can be referrenced back to the OT.

John also states many times within the first chapter that these events must "Soon" take place.

John also is told to measure the temple in Ch. 11. How can he do that when the temple was destroyed. This has many people believing the idea that the temple in Jerusalem must be rebuilt for the the "End Times" to take place. But it would be odd that God told John to measure something that is not even there, and to the readers of the Revelation that would be almost a mockery to the most sacred symbol of Judaism to refer to something that was destroyed 25 years prior.

Also John eludes to the beast and to the kings of the beast. These kings represent the head of the beast or the ruler, king, emperor. John states that one the kings is....

9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

It's pretty common knowledge that Rome was built on Seven hills... So what is the better translation. The current Roman empire of the 1st century? Or some conglomeration of 7 or 10 or 12 nations that will make up a new Roman empire sometime in the near, or distant future?

10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

John forsees Seven kings. At the present time five have fallen and one reigns currently, or the 6th king, and one more to come and when he does reign he remains a "little While"..

Now, let's look at the Roman Emperors in order...

(Julius) Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius - These are the Five that have fallen... "One is" - Nero (6th King) and the 7th who will remain a "little while" is Caesar Galba who only reigne from June 68 AD to January 69...

If Nero is the currently reigning king of the beast, then we can safely assume that Revelation was written prior to 70AD. Thus making the events in and around 70AD carry much weight when considering their possible fullfillment.

Yes, preterism has many new ideas and many of which shake the traditionlist/futurist ideas at it's core. But IMO, there is enough evidence, espeically historical evidence from writers such as Josephus, Tacitus that can not be ignored.

Now one must also remember that Preterism itself has 2 views.

1) That all of Biblical Prophecy has been fullfilled. Rapture Second Coming etc...

2)Partial View - That most of the prophecies have been fullfilled. Partial Preterist feel that there is a seperation somewhere in the writting of Revelation, along with the Paul's discription of Christ Second Coming and various other scripture.

Right now I am stuck in the middle. Both views lend much to consider. And as the Bereans did to Paul, we must search the scriptures, and as Paul said test all things.

I will be glad to answer a question at a time. (as I have found due to experience these discussions tend to get out of hand and one loses track of everything) I do not declare to be an expert, only a student. Much of what I will say one can find simply by searching the internet. The works of Josephus are readily available. Articles written by doctrinally sound theologians are avaible.

[popthree]

deleted

[Pearly Gator]

prophesy doesn't mean future, it means truth. just thought that needed to be added to the discussion.

Actually, there are two types of prophecy. Foretelling and forthtelling.


i will not comment on this thread further, as i have already been put through the ringer for stating my sincere beliefs regarding these literalistic views of Revelation on another thread.

Popthree, please do not take it personally. Admin and the moderators will not allow anyone to put someone through the wringer. We appreciate you. Please don't confuse someone's passion as an attack. We are all family - brothers and sisters in Christ. English is hard. It's harder to communicate when we can't see the person behind the monitor. We love The Lord and His Word. We love to discuss the Bible. That's all.

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

God bless,

Gator