Denominations

[dmw]

I've had the subject of denominations - those of the Christian ilk - on my mind lately. It comes up all the time at the Bible college I attend as they are always knocking denominations there, while claiming to not be part of a denomination.

I'd like to get some opinions from you folks as to why you think that there are so many denominations in the Christian church. I just printed a list from an Internet site and it's twenty pages long, and it includes denominations that are considered part of the Christian faith. I forget the name of this book, but there is an encyclopedia of facts about the Christian faith that lists the fact that there are 1573 Christian denominations in the United States alone. I think that might be an over-estimation, but there's no doubt that there's hundreds of them.

So, do you have an opinion as to why there are so many denominations in the Christian faith? We know that there is really only one church, and that's the one that the Apostle Paul called the Body of Christ. I firmly believe that God overlooks this denominational foolishness and sees us as blood-bought, blood-covered children of His. But, nevertheless there must be a reason that we humans think we have to divide ourselves into these hundreds and hundreds of splinter groups.

I'll give you my opinion about this. I think it all stems from a basic misunderstanding of the Grace of God. Because of this lack of understanding each group, or denomination, or division of Believers, thinks they have to add (or subtract) some particular aspect of the faith. Many times it's over some ordinance of the church that has nothing to do with salvation.

Denominations are not a recent phenomenon. In the first century church we had some folks saying "I am of Paul" or "I am of Appolos," and so on.

Without arguing about the merits of one denomination over the other, I'd sure appreciate some general comments as to what you think drives this human desire to create denominational divisions within the Faith. Thanks.

[Barry]

I've given this a lot of thought and prayer over the years, too, having been involved with several different denominations. I believe what basically drives it is the varying forms of worship. For example, the Roman Catholic church is much more formal and liturgical in worship than Assembly of God. Episcopals lean more toward formality and liturgy than others, but not as much as the Catholic church. It's largely in how each individual person feels the Lord should be worshipped, too. Upbringing plays a large part as well. Someone brought up as Baptist might not necessarily be comfortable in an Episcopal setting, etc.

I personally believe that it lends more variety to Christianity, and the world, as a whole, with none being any more correct or important than another.

Sorry, my comments might be a bit disjointed. Am I making sense?

[Crunchyriff]

dmw- I would agree with your opinions in this matter; and in that, I would say that it's yet another classic case of God using our weak humanity and somehow fashioning/using it for His glory.

The Bible is strewn with examples of this trait of His, from beginning to end.

IMHO, denominations largely exist to cater to one's own preferences and or dislikes. So people dig up a subset of scripture to somehow promulgate and justify their "seperation" or "distinction" from others.

You know the biggest problem with 'denominations' as a whole (and I'm not even getting into cults such as Jehovahs witnesses or the Mormons) and the whole them vs. us mindset; is that each embrace a part of the Gospel, or better yet, build a whole doctrine upon a certain theme, whilst downplaying, ignoring, or completely removing other just as valid biblical teaching(s) and concepts. (Not to mention those like Catholicism which in it's true form subtly introduces polytheism, and many other pagan rites and rituals)

And this even includes the Catholicism vs Protestant issue as a whole.
IN short- WE, humanity, are a MESS!

The fact that man's meddling has not killed off the Gospel thru it all in the last 2000 years in itself is a testimony to the Sovereign POWER of the Almighty, and the truth that Jesus is in fact who He claims to be.

[Pearly Gator]

It doesn't matter what kind of cookie you are as long as you are in the cookie jar.

PG

[TheViking]

....that DMW is absolutely right when he says

I'll give you my opinion about this. I think it all stems from a basic misunderstanding of the Grace of God. Because of this lack of understanding each group, or denomination, or division of Believers, thinks they have to add (or subtract) some particular aspect of the faith. Many times it's over some ordinance of the church that has nothing to do with salvation.

I also think the crunchmeister is right in.....

IMHO, denominations largely exist to cater to one's own preferences and or dislikes. So people dig up a subset of scripture to somehow promulgate and justify their "seperation" or "distinction" from others.

I think there are several factors playing important parts in why there are so many denominations.
1) Claiming the “one true path to salvation” would give a denomination pretty much unlimited power, especially during a time when people in general weren’t that well informed. A lot of denominations came prior to the “high tech information” times we live in. Faithful and loyal devotees would secure funds to further spread the teachings. Having devotees who could care less about what denomination they belonged to, would have been fatal when it came to spreading the teachings of a certain denomination. You don’t have to go that many years back in time to find that ecumenical thoughts were non existent, and denominational pride was crucial.
2) Geography, many apostles, monks and missionaries were sent out to bear witness to the corners of the world. Over the years, many of these remote churches blended with popular beliefs, or maybe addressed them and evolved into a new denomination. It would be important that the believers not only followed the right faith, but that their actions backed up the supremacy of that exact denomination.
3) As we learn more about the origin of the Bible, new translations are made and so on; some people will always think that newer beliefs are better, while other thinks that older beliefs are better. You will always have some people believing that any change is for the better, while others claim all changes are pure evil.
4) More or less every denomination has sub denominations. Can be anything from minor variations in teachings and beliefs, to rather big differences of opinion. Sometimes the differences grow so big, a new denomination is born.
5) Form is also an important aspect. What is taught and in what way is it taught. For some people a quiet congregation brings them closer to God, for others impressing churches and sacred rituals do the trick, yet others want a loose every day church where they can come as they are. There are quite a few denominations with almost the exact same teachings, but with a substantial difference in form.

[stephen]

It doesn't matter what kind of cookie you are as long as you are in the cookie jar.

PG

I gotta remember this quote. I love it!

I agree that we do see the initial buds of division in the early church in scripture, and Paul rightly says it matters not as long as The One who is True and Faithful is followed.

I think an awful lot of the denominational stuff we see goes back to the protestant vs catholic debate, and an awful lot of early protestant denominations would deride others as being to catholic because they (as an example) sprinkle, instead of fully submerse, or they put too much weight in into saints, and not enough into Jesus, or their leader is like a mini-pope.

I used to be non-denominational, but those that carry that moniker seem to be of the faith movement predominantly, and while I can extract some good faith based knowledge from their teachings, I can only handle so many teachings about giving and tithes, which all of their teachings always have a way of getting back too (always, right before they take an offering too).

Now, back to that little quote: "It doesn't matter what kind of cookie you are as long as you are in the cookie jar." This carry's a lot of weight in my opinion. As long as your church is preaching/teaching Jesus is the Christ, The Only BegottenSon of God, Ressurected, and that there is none beside Him, the Father and The Holy Spirit, and they alone are God, and that Jesus is coming back soon to take us all home, and put the devil in his final place, and that we are to follow His example of living a life of sacrifice, putting others above ourselves, You got a good church.

Style does come into play: some may like a more reverent atmosphere, some more open, some more theological, etc.. The denomination will have an influence on that, but also the pastor will also have an influence on it as well. And I belive that if the pastor is chosen by God, that is part of God's design, using the traits and qualities of that individual in His service.

When denominations (or non-) begin to take scripture or precepts, and formulate a church or congregation around them, and tell themselves, "Other church's that dont believe in communion/baptism/gifts/giving/missions/etc., as we do, are not of the body, are starting to break into cult territory. I Corinthians 12:15 comes to mind.

As an example: Jehovah's Witness' have castagated all protestants as heretics because of the cross (instead of a stake), and that they know for a fact that Jesus is not Almighty God, but rather just a Mighty God (lesser than the Father), and that at one time, the "life force" known as Jesus was (and sometimes still is, according to them [?]) Micheal the Archangel [never mind Hebrews 13:8], and that at death, there is no life till the end of all time when basically Jehovah God "revives" their life force, and gives everyone, one last chance to accept Him [Luke 23:24 & Ecclisiasties 12:7 says different].

Now we know that all these things fly in the face of established scripture, but they have meticulously crafted a training regimen for all their followers, which fully indoctrinates them into their view. They do not tolerate any decension in their ranks at any level, and they weild "excommunication" like a bloody battle axe, to intimidate the whole congregation.

So, on the whole, I think there is no problem with denominations, as long as they fall in line with the Word of God, and strive to keep aiming for His mark, and not that of their own.

I wonder if they have a "Church of the cookie jar"?

[Crunchyriff]

I am a tollhouse cookie!! :lol:

[stephen]

I am a tollhouse cookie!! :lol:

Me too! But the nutty variety!

[Teleguy]

Shell; Mobil; Exxon; Texaco. It's all fuel. Some guys swear by brand loyalty.

I don't like a lot of additives, so Chevron is out though. ;)

[stephen]

Shell; Mobil; Exxon; Texaco. It's all fuel. Some guys swear by brand loyalty.

I don't like a lot of additives, so Chevron is out though. ;)

So your not of the nutty variety then?

[Crunchyriff]

Shell is one of the cleanest. Texaco is one of the worst.

[dmw]

I, too, like Pearly Gator's statement. It's a good summary. I'm going to borrow that unless he's got it copyrighted. It is true, too, that some cookies are nuttier than others ;) .

I also like The Viking's comment that "There are quite a few denominations with almost the exact same teachings, but with a substantial difference in form." How true that is! I can think of one denominational group that is divided basically over the use of instrumental music in the worship service and that's about the only distinction there is.

All the posts here have been great (and mine probably the least). Thanks.

[kewlpack]

Just saw this topic... interesting points... allow me to chime in. (This is a little lengthy).

FWIW, if you study the first ~230 years of the Church - around 50AD through 300AD - you will be stunned at just how uniform and cohesive the worldwide church was... both in doctrine, practice, tradition, and in lifestyle. I've studied this era for about ten years now and am continually amazed at the early Church's resolve, balance, and understanding on most Bible topics. It's the very reason I moved my family from a very successful ministry in Nebraska down to Dallas - to work with a congregation who wanted to get back to some of the early ways of teaching/doing/living. The church was in for very hard times.

It's worth noting that Rome and "catholicism" (most people don't know that Roman influence didn't really infect the Church until the mid-4th century - shortly after 325AD at the Council of Nicea) had not permeated the very tightly closed Body of Christ. From Africa to Gaul; from Syria to Spain... the Church was actually quite united and looked upon denominations/divisions as a grave sin. What we know as denominations were literally unheard of until about 1530AD.

There have always been offshoot groups started by detractors, but back then if those individuals introduced new doctrine that didn't agree with Scripture nor with the apostolic precedents (which was usually why they split off), they were noted as heretics - examples: Marcion, Montanists, Gnostics, Novatianists, and even Tertullian, who was faithful and an amazing teacher until after about 210 when he succumbed to Montanism.

Basically it boiled down to Scripture (New Testament) understood in the light of what the apostles had taught in the various churches where they lived after the period of time covered in the book of Acts. Note: from everything I've read, the Apostle's precedents/tradition/teachings always fall right in line with Scripture - which makes sense.

The church was one just like they were exhorted to be in 1 Corinthians 1 and as Jesus prayed in John 17. People got the point and worked toward peaceful unity in the spirit, with the same mind on core issues and similar lifestyles.

In fact, when there were disputes over something they would typically surrender to apostolic precedent (i.e. look at New Testament, then converse with the congregations where the Apostles had spent many years to see what the standard was) and use that as the anchor for interpretation and determination of the "finer points".

As far as denominations... the church did split in the 11th century into what is now known as the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church. BTW, "catholic" is a word that simply means "universal" and isn't a negative term like some folks make it out to be. Don't confuse it with the Roman Catholic name.

Things were getting ripe for BIG change... Corruption and ruin HAD infiltrated the church pretty badly by this time; the advent of the printing press was upon us (i.e. Guttenburg's Bible anyone?); and Martin Luther basically called for reform and posted a list of 95 issues which needed to be rectified within the church. Well this got around FAST... now that the Scripture was much more available because of the presses, and folks weren't happy with the state churches, people began to set up their own separatist groups... splitting and renaming themselves (de: to divide; nominate: to rename; thus denominate).

Few, if any, thought to look back at the original pattern of the early Church (partly because most of those documents were unknown or thought to be lost until about 1850 or so...when scholars began finding them in various libraries and other places). Anyway - since no one had an anchor for the way they were interpreting things, they typically built their new congregations based on a position that was diametrically in opposition to either Rome - OR - to another splinter group they didn't agree with.

So you end up with an exponential explosion of tiny groups... splitting off and renaming themselves; teaching and emphasizing the portions of Scripture which they deem "more important" than others (yeah, most leaders do this unfortunately). As generations went by, the stressing of certain passages and issues led to dogmatic "pet" doctrines which have become the earmarks of that denomination.

The problem is - most folks who are in a denomination have only ever been taught those pet doctrines and have NO clue that there is much more to the whole of Christianity. There's so much to say here... maybe better to do so over coffee some day.

Societal pressures enhance this terrible problem further because people eagerly buy into the idea that worldly standards and perspectives can "fit" into Christianity. We get these worldly ideas about what a "good family-friendly church" is... and that just doesn't work folks (Jas 4:4).

If this group doesn't do things the way you think they should be done, you jump ship and start shopping around for better ear-tickling and a place that "can do for you"... um, since when did Christ authorize Consumer Christianity???

Denominations breed confusion, dissent, disatisfaction, demoralization, and ultimately lead folks to ruin because they give up the effort to find solid faith and sound doctrine. Denominations are not healthy because they go directly against what Christ prayed for; are contrary to what Paul admonished us to be; incongruous with the one Holy Spirit who inhabits every converted believer; and on top of all of this... denominations are an innovation that has NO foundation in the early historical church, nor is there any single apostolic precedent for establishing a denomination.

The Body of Christ is ONE. Denominations are Satan's attempt to dillute and dissolve the foundations of the Faith. Sadly, he has gained a huge foothold in the minds and hearts of countless disciples - who will continue to propagate the splintering and crippling of the Church on the face of the earth...unless we wake up and start getting back to basics and the early, apostolic way of teaching and doing things. Every one of us will find things that we struggle with back there - but if you hang on and keep studying, you'll see that the original way was best because it was straight from the hands and mouths of the apostles - who taught by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Is it any wonder that Jesus said, "When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?" and "The path that leads to salvation is narrow - and FEW find it."

May God have mercy on us - the sheep. We have lost our way and most of the time are too blinded by the facade to realize it.

My heart is for the Church to rise up out of the divided mess, lay down our pride, get back to a real Scriptural way (life and teaching); asking God to heal the Bride and make her truly ready for the Lord's amazing return.

'nuff said for now. This is my 2¢. I might have typos or incomplete thoughts - sorry about that. I hope what I've written helps and encourages - exhorts to a fuller life in Christ! :angel

[Mr. 336]

Yup- a lot of words in there, but I liked reading that post!
A few observations:
1) Anyone guess why the Chuch at Rome Excommunicated the Church at Constantinople?
IDOLATRY (oh, the irony)
2) Isn't it interesting (& disturbing) that the early church seemed to flourish under persecution, & fall into error after She had gained wide public acceptance? Too much time to sit around & speculate about theology, I suppose.
3) I think I've met true believers in just about every major denomination in this country. That tells me that there are some points of doctrine that are just not as critical as I was led to believe.

[kewlpack]

1) Yep.
2) Exactly. When the church started looking at doctrinal fine tuning (because of debates against real heretics), things began to get whacky.
3) I can't help but believe that God is working in the lives of people around the globe - trying to draw us together on the core fundamentals and on lifestyle issues. It shakes the foundation of modern religianity - but we can't stay in this worldly tailspin for long.

Thanks for reading... I know I got windy - sorry. ;)

[Mr. 336]

Thanks for reading... I know I got windy - sorry. ;)
No apology necessary! I have to say that nine times out of ten at other guitar-related forums I frequent a post that long would only get a quick once over. Since I've been here I've seen a few very long posts & it has been a pleasure to read them. It's not just fluff.

[Strat-tastic]

God gives people an endless variety of personalities, looks, tastes. I think that this is reflected in the formation of different denominations. The very real danger is though, as some have said, denominational pride.

"Hah! My salvation is better than yours!"

"You can't be baptised, you weren't fully sumberged for the full ten seconds!"

In my area, we're getting a bit better lately, we've got what we call 'Churches Together', which means we talk to each other! We have lent Bible studies which are multi-denominational. These are excellent ways to get together in Jesus' name, and discuss how we do things. It's surprising how similar we are at the end of the day. Probably not that surprising really, considering we have the same Spirit living in us.

Unity is essential - we must never forget it.

Martin.

PS

I love the name of the London-based 'Church of the Glorious Undead'. :yikes

[dmw]

Good post by Kewlpack.

I think the group he's affiliated with has a good concept, and I suppose it could be called "pushing the reset button" to take us back to the first century church. Again, that's a fine concept.

I won't mention the name, as I said I didn't want to compare the pro's and cons of denominations, but a group I've been with most of my life started a movement in the late 1800's to restore the church back to the first century as viewed in the Book of Acts. So leaders from many of the major denominationss came together as one group dedicated to restoring first century principals. Have they succeeded? In some ways, yes. In other ways, no. This group has divided itself into many schisms. As I decision counselor at my church, I met with a couple who wanted to join our church. Their next-door-nieghbor, who was actually of the same "ilk" as our church, warned them that they'd go to Hell if they joined our church because we had instrumental music and we had a kitchen in our church. She further said that any church that had a kitchen in it was of the devil. (I'm still looking for that verse. Can anyone help?) Having said that, the group I've been with for many years, supports the Bible college I attend. Most of what I get told and taught there is that "we've got the only acceptable doctrine and we're the only ones who really follow the scriptures." Professors even get up before students and name other ministers, by name, that they think have strayed from the fold, and these are ministers within this very same group. A good friend of mine at school has a Baptist background and now pastors a Methodist church. Nobody at the school minds blasting the Methodists, and they do it right in front of him. I hope this school is not typical, but from what I've heard about alot of schools, it is pretty typical. It's sad commentary, isn't it?

What is the Bible teaching us? I doubt that most in Christendom really know. Most still want to teach Law and that's where we get into trouble; and that brings me back to my original comment that we, as a lot, have still not completely grasped the grace of God. All Believers are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit into ONE body. We're either in that one cookie jar or we're not.

I've identified the problem. Staying true to Christ is the only solution. Off my preaching soap box.

[kewlpack]

dmw - i was (still sort of am - loosely) part of the same movement and deal with the same folks with that misplaced spiritual pride. :-s

[OlsonAcoustic]

Non-Denominational here! :angel

Of course, thats a whole other deal... :-s

[dmw]

Kewl,

Maybe they're just a little more intense around here. And the neighboring state north of here - Indiana - has the highest concentration of those churches.

Also, no offense intended. I don't think you took it that way, but I just want to be sure about that. After all, your name is Kewl, so you've got to be....a Kewl Dude :lol: .

[kewlpack]

Kewl,

Maybe they're just a little more intense around here. And the neighboring state north of here - Indiana - has the highest concentration of those churches.

Also, no offense intended. I don't think you took it that way, but I just want to be sure about that. After all, your name is Kewl, so you've got to be....a Kewl Dude :lol: .
LOL - no offense at all man... as for "kewl"... it was originally the name of a set of Photoshop special effects I used to selll... packages of cool effects became "kewlpacks". :cool:

[Ravindave_3600]

"You can't be baptised, you weren't fully sumberged for the full ten seconds!"


Ten SECONDS???? In my church we hold 'em under for at least 2 MINUTES to see if they REALLY have faith!

[Ravindave_3600]

I'm sure in some ways it's a shame that we have denominations, but I don't know any way around it. I've been active in three denominations in my life, as well as dropping into some "Nondemoninationals" from time to time, and I am what I am by choice.

Most denominations have started as reform movements, or in response to some special act of God (the 95 Theses, the Azusa Street revival) or because of legitimate disagreements in function (mission funding among Baptists, for example). And that goes all the way back past the Great Schism between east and west to those who rejected papal authority in the 5th century.

I have chosen to be denominated in a certain way because as far as I can tell my group does a very good of being true to the scriptures; there are other groups I could have joined but the teachings of mine ring tru-er (in my opinion). Combine that faith with practice I can sink my teeth into, and it makes sense. But what I've learned through it all is that we must be united on the main points, generous on the lesser points, and loving on points of practice.

[Crunchyriff]

If you have been denominated, when were you first nominated?

[Strat-tastic]

Strat-tastic wrote:

"You can't be baptised, you weren't fully sumberged for the full ten seconds!"

Ravindave:

Ten SECONDS???? In my church we hold 'em under for at least 2 MINUTES to see if they REALLY have faith!

Pastor can't handle the ice cubes these days, poor soul. His legs quickly go numb. :-)

Back to the topic: -

On the essentials, unity.
On the non-essentials, tolerance.
In all things, love.

[Ravindave_3600]

On the essentials, unity.
On the non-essentials, tolerance.
In all things, love.

Ultimately, that's what it's about. We can worship in different ways, and have different ideas, yet show the world that our differences are swallowed by our Great Commonality:
God has loved us, saved us through Jesus Christ His Son, and reconciled us to Him and each other in a relationship of love.

While we may have to explain ourselves from time to time, and help the world see the place of repentance, good works, adherence to truth, etc., what unites us is greater than what divides us.

[ptrallan01]

a poor Baptist preacher, raised Presbyterian, by Episcopalian parents, all my cousins are Roman Orthodox (I prefer that to term to Catholic) and one of my favorite churches to go to when I am not at my own is the Eastern Orthodox Church up the street. My sister is one kind of Methodist, my brother, who was married to an Anglican priest's daughter is another type of Methodist and my nieces and nephews are all over the spectrum.

I work for a christian publishing company where virtually every nuance of Christianity is represented in my coworkers. I don't care what denomination you are, I don't care if you worship with music or without, I don't care if you woship on Saturday or Sunday, I don't care if you worship in a basement, a garage, a cathedral or a mega church. I care about how you live out your faith on a day to day basis.

Interestingly Jesus tells us that at the judgment there would be people who would be invited into heaven who would ask when they did something for Him and He will say that if you did it for the least (important) of my brothers because they were my brothers you did it for Me!!!! He also says that if you didn't you rejected Him. (see matt 25:31 to the end)!

Denominations exist to serve men not God! Men exist to serve God not denominations.

You're all welcome to come to second baptist of palatine, IL if you're in the area. We just want Christians!!!!

[Crossroadsguitar]

I think that different denominations are positive for the life of faith. I hope that together we can confess a common faith, but the way that different denominations worship, and the parts of the faith that they hold up appeal to different people. This way we are more capable of spreading God's good news.

[GuitarKidd]

Kewlpack

Great thoughts...

I can't agree more...

Churches don't realize that the body of Christ IS HIS Church. So when church prays for Revival, how can that happen when the rest of the body is left out.

It's time that the body reorganizes, put down our differences, learn what the first century body was like and get down to our roots.... With guitars in hand... :theband

[seagullplayer]

Kewl,

Maybe they're just a little more intense around here. And the neighboring state north of here - Indiana - has the highest concentration of those churches.

Also, no offense intended. I don't think you took it that way, but I just want to be sure about that. After all, your name is Kewl, so you've got to be....a Kewl Dude :lol: .

You have mail. ;)